Why no talk of death penalty for Penn State? | Page 7 | The Boneyard

Why no talk of death penalty for Penn State?

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Shultz was the top administrator for the campus police?
Shultz did not tell Paterno? Hey Joe, your boy Sandusky...
Sandusky "retired" when?

Schultz was not the person to report to. By telling Schultz, they were not reporting to police. Schultz was only a Veep, a functionary in charge of police but also several other units. He wasn't the chief of police or anything such, so they can't say that they were reporting to police by reporting to him. At most, he was their superior.
 
What about all the programs where kids weren't getting raped in the showers? Shouldn't those programs get a reward for not raping children?

If you don't take yourself seriously, why should we?

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All these are debatable, and that's what we're doing. Do you agree there are debates about societal need for punishment? This has been a debate since the start of disciplining criminals. But, instead of going off into Foprd Pintos and the history of incarceration/rehab, etc., let's be more specific to PSU. I've objected to about 3 of the proposals made by posters so far. I'm still open to seeing what might be suggested if the emails are found to implicate the 3 PSU administrators. The word "humane" in one of the emails seems to implicate them already, but I'd rather see the whole context.

Uh, upstater, you brought up the analogy to capital punishment to support the notion that the act was so horrendous that "a penalty is not a deterrent." See quote your below:

I don't see it. I'm all for penalties, but I think in this case, what actually happened is so far beyond that a penalty is not a deterrent. It's like capital punishment. Is it really there to dissuade people from killing?

My post points out that if an economic penalty is significant enough it is very likely to be effective. The Ford case is a well known example real world of how that would work. There the egregious behavior was deciding the cost of a relitively low number of deaths was less that making a small cost repair on a big number cars. Deaths, and the inevitable law suits that would follow, became an acceptable 'cost of doing business' to Ford. Here the decision was that leaving a pedophile at large, and even allowing him access to university, while denying access to other what a better economic choice then allowing the university's reputation to be sullied. Children being victimized became an acceptable cost of doing business to the university as long it was not linked back to PSU. A huge financial penalty, whether in the form of a post season ban over a number of seasons, or some other form, would almost certainly change the calculus for other institutions facing a similar situation. This is a much closer analogy than the effectiveness of the death penalty, don't you think? It shows that the severity of an action, or the bad press that springs , from its discovery is less of a motivator than an enormous economic penalty. The more I think about it the more I think is that is exactly what needs to happen here.
 
Uh, upstater, you brought up the analogy to capital punishment to support the notion that the act was so horrendous that "a penalty is not a deterrent." See quote your below:

My post points out that if an economic penalty is significant enough it is very likely to be effective. The Ford case is a well known example real world of how that would work. There the egregious behavior was deciding the cost of a relitively low number of deaths was less that making a small cost repair on a big number cars. Deaths, and the inevitable law suits that would follow, became an acceptable 'cost of doing business' to Ford. Here the decision was that leaving a pedophile at large, and even allowing him access to university, while denying access to other what a better economic choice then allowing the university's reputation to be sullied. Children being victimized became an acceptable cost of doing business to the university as long it was not linked back to PSU. A huge financial penalty, whether in the form of a post season ban over a number of seasons, or some other form, would almost certainly change the calculus for other institutions facing a similar situation. This is a much closer analogy than the effectiveness of the death penalty, don't you think? It shows that the severity of an action, or the bad press that springs , from its discovery is less of a motivator than an enormous economic penalty. The more I think about it the more I think is that is exactly what needs to happen here.

I know I did. But you brought up other aspects that I don't think apply. I'm also obviously not against economic penalties. I was referring to some of the earlier suggestions when I questioned that logic. I've mentioned multiple times here that PSU is going to suffer financial penalties. I was referring to the specific penalty suggestions made by people of death penalties, destroying the stadium and athletic facilities, etc. I said I didn't see that as a deterrent. I actually don't see any of this as a deterrent really, since this issue supersedes all of that. What you want is upgraded policies (i.e. report to police and not superiors) as well as education on child abuse.
 
Sandusky's oddly timed retirement in the late 90's, which I remember as strange due to all the success of the program and him not taking another job (these guys just don't retire at 57), is a sign that something is yet to come forward. His continued access to PSU facilities is really disturbing. The thought that some people on the PSU payroll chose not to act is what would justify any death penalty edicts from the NCAA. Death penalty type punishment is needed to show that protecting the cash cow program can never again be seen as an option. I don't care who is inconvienienced or upset. This can't be seen as just a rogue child predator because that's not what happened here.
 
I was referring to the specific penalty suggestions made by people of death penalties, destroying the stadium and athletic facilities, etc. I said I didn't see that as a deterrent. I actually don't see any of this as a deterrent really, since this issue supersedes all of that. What you want is upgraded policies (i.e. report to police and not superiors) as well as education on child abuse.

If people are protecting guys like Sandusky in order to protect the football program and the punishment for doing so is crippling the football program, I think people will be less likely to protect guys like Sandusky. That's just my opinion though.

I also don't think the death penalty is a good comparison because when people are committing murders their mind isn't in a clear place (generally) so they aren't weighing the odds of being put to death if they get caught. In this case, you are encouraging the act of whistle blowing by the people surrounding the situation. These people are in a much better state of mind (generally) and are more likely to consider the odds of very steep penalties when deciding to cover up for a criminal.

Now, having said this, I get what you are saying in terms of a situation like this superseding such punishment. But the fact is that if that were actually the case (if everyone acted reasonably to put it in law or economic terms), we wouldn't need laws against child molestation because the issue of child rape supersedes whatever punishment someone will end up getting.
 
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If people are protecting guys like Sandusky in order to protect the football program and the punishment for doing so is crippling the football program, I think people will be less likely to protect guys like Sandusky. That's just my opinion though.

I also don't think the death penalty is a good comparison because when people are committing murders their mind isn't in a clear place (generally) so they aren't weighing the odds of being put to death if they get caught. In this case, you are encouraging the act of whistle blowing by the people surrounding the situation. These people are in a much better state of mind (generally) and are more likely to consider the odds of very steep penalties when deciding to cover up for a criminal.

Now, having said this, I get what you are saying in terms of a situation like this superseding such punishment. But the fact is that if that were actually the case (if everyone acted reasonably to put it in law or economic terms), we wouldn't need laws against child molestation because the issue of child rape supersedes whatever punishment someone will end up getting.

Right, I didn't say anything different, in fact. All I said is that I'm waiting to see what those emails reveal but they don't look good. If they reveal there was an effort to protect football, then there should be punishment. I've already said that. My other posts were based on what is known now.
 
Sandusky's oddly timed retirement in the late 90's, which I remember as strange due to all the success of the program and him not taking another job (these guys just don't retire at 57), is a sign that something is yet to come forward. His continued access to PSU facilities is really disturbing. The thought that some people on the PSU payroll chose not to act is what would justify any death penalty edicts from the NCAA. Death penalty type punishment is needed to show that protecting the cash cow program can never again be seen as an option. I don't care who is inconvienienced or upset. This can't be seen as just a rogue child predator because that's not what happened here.

He was reported back then, however. Cleared by the DA, by the psychologist who analyzed him, by child protective services, and he continued a relationship with the child he was found in the shower with (I assume he wasn't stupid enough to try anything with that kid).
 
I know I did. But you brought up other aspects that I don't think apply. I'm also obviously not against economic penalties. I was referring to some of the earlier suggestions when I questioned that logic. I've mentioned multiple times here that PSU is going to suffer financial penalties. I was referring to the specific penalty suggestions made by people of death penalties, destroying the stadium and athletic facilities, etc. I said I didn't see that as a deterrent. I actually don't see any of this as a deterrent really, since this issue supersedes all of that. What you want is upgraded policies (i.e. report to police and not superiors) as well as education on child abuse.

Mere policy changes after the fact don't change the econimic calculus as much as a significant post season ban or the death penalty. Given Penn States considerable endowment, any money santion would need to be huge. The penalty needs to be so staggering that PSU and other institutions are sure not to go down this road again.

Agree re demolishing the stadium and facilities, although it would creep me out to use those showers.
 
Mere policy changes after the fact don't change the econimic calculus as much as a significant post season ban or the death penalty. Given Penn States considerable endowment, any money santion would need to be huge. The penalty needs to be so staggering that PSU and other institutions are sure not to go down this road again.

Agree re demolishing the stadium and facilities, although it would creep me out to use those showers.

Endowments and funds like that are untouchable for obvious reasons. When people endow things, they come with stipulations. Some part of the endowment is in the general fund (i.e. the donor gives it without strings). It would have to come out of general funds (i.e. tuition and taxpayer money). Of course, PSU also has an insurer as well. More important than the money losses however are the new policies. As I wrote a long while ago, my school introduced new policies specifically citing PSU and Syracuse. But I thought this was odd since this sort of stuff has been going on for a while before even that. Note, my school didn't cite the case with the professor at PSU or the med school guy at Michigan, though both those cases, and countless others, could be considered cover-ups. My school didn't even change the policy after the EMU President covered-up murder. It took the media focus on PSU football and Paterno's screw-up in particular to change all of this. But that shows you something I think about sports in this country, and it's not only that sport culture is out of control, but the media focus on it is intense.
 
I have a hard time believing that any punishment to the current football team will act as a deterrent. I'm guessing about 95-98% of all americans understand it's wrong to molest children, and wrong to protect child molesters. If your morals are so lacking you are willing to protect a child molester, and risk going to jail in the process, losing 20 scholarships isn't going to give you a change of heart.
 
So...we want to tear down ALL of the athletic facilities at Penn State. Then we can rebuild them as new, state-of-the-art facilities (like our new football facilities and the practice basketball facility) that will attract even more athletes and make football and all sports at Penn State even more important to the university and successful??????
 
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I have a hard time believing that any punishment to the current football team will act as a deterrent. I'm guessing about 95-98% of all americans understand it's wrong to molest children, and wrong to protect child molesters. If your morals are so lacking you are willing to protect a child molester, and risk going to jail in the process, losing 20 scholarships isn't going to give you a change of heart.

Well, clearly you are wrong since Penn State obviously didn't think child molestation rose to the level of importance to justify embarrassing the university.

This was an INSTITUTIONAL failure. It should be impossible for a coverup so widespread to last a few months, much less 2 decades. It lasted as long as it did because the institution did not have an atmosphere of compliance or integrity, and it certainly did not encourage the reporting of improprieties by senior university employees.

If Penn State is not punished for what happened, then the message to every other school is to cover up any wrongdoing for as long as possible, since there are no consequences for doing so.
 
If you don't take yourself seriously, why should we?

Warning- Not Safe For Work!



Until I read this post, I thought your defense of Penn State was half-sarcastic. Now I realize that you actually think Penn State should not be punished for covering up a serial child molester for decades.
 
Well, clearly you are wrong since Penn State obviously didn't think child molestation rose to the level of importance to justify embarrassing the university.

This was an INSTITUTIONAL failure. It should be impossible for a coverup so widespread to last a few months, much less 2 decades. It lasted as long as it did because the institution did not have an atmosphere of compliance or integrity, and it certainly did not encourage the reporting of improprieties by senior university employees.

If Penn State is not punished for what happened, then the message to every other school is to cover up any wrongdoing for as long as possible, since there are no consequences for doing so.

Sometimes I think you pretend to be stupid, sometimes I think you are stupid, but usually I come back to the same conclusion. Your ego just won't allow you to accept the possibility you might be wrong. No matter what someone who you disagree with writes, you will take their posts, misrepresent it in your own words, and then "prove" it wrong. Is that fun for you, or is it simply a tool employed as a result of losing debate after debate in school?
 
Until I read this post, I thought your defense of Penn State was half-sarcastic. Now I realize that you actually think Penn State should not be punished for covering up a serial child molester for decades.

Until I read your "reward schools for not raping children" post I thought your attack on innocent student athletes was half-genuine. Now I realize that you actually think taking scholarships away from kids is morally superior to sending criminals to jail.

You actually said schools should be rewarded for not raping children. In your twisted mind it's difficult to avoid raping children, and anyone who avoids it should be rewarded. You're a disgusting opportunist who isn't concerned with the victims or their families, you just want to take this opportunity to punish a football program that we typically can't compete with on several different levels.

If you want to punish "Penn State" why stop at football? Why not punish all of the sports? Since schools need to be taught that raping children is frowned upon by the NCAA, why not eliminate all sports for 2 years? Why not eliminate the psychology and criminal justice departments/courses thanks to the failings of the administration in those regards?

Since we're punishing innocent people in the name of justice, why not fine every football player who ever played for Penn State. That'll learn em.
 
Well it just keeps getting worse. Holy christ - it seems almost impossible they were able to cover things up as long as they did.
 
Well it just keeps getting worse. Holy christ - it seems almost impossible they were able to cover things up as long as they did.

Seems as though the cover-up was in the emails given over by PSU 2 weeks ago. Amazingly, Paterno and Curley convinced Spanier to go along. Spanier was ready to go the authorities, and then after being convinced, he decided the humane thing to do was confront Sandusky. Crazy. But since Paterno and Curley lead on this, I'd say the NCAA has cause to discipline PSU at this point.
 
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When college athletic programs are sanctioned, aren't innocent kids always punished? Reggie Bush accepted a house, but the team/program had to pay the price.
 
No matter what we say, money is going to made on this story. Why? Because we care to read about it, learn about it. I contacted someone who was selling a Sandusky 1986 national championship ring. The seller was seeing "$$$$" in his mind. He even went onto state that the ring will become worth more as more unfolds. He probably IS right. The asking price was not even that high for a scandal of this magnitude. Sandusky probably thinks people treating him like total is unjustifiable. I don't care to hate people, but stuff like this does deserve a death penalty.

Lawrence Taylor's Super Bowl XXV ring went for over $200,000. And the buyer seems to be....Charlie Sheen?! Have to wonder who bought the Sandusky ring.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/charlie-sheen-lawrence-taylor-super-bowl-xxv-ring-auction-052412
 
When college athletic programs are sanctioned, aren't innocent kids always punished? Reggie Bush accepted a house, but the team/program had to pay the price.

Easy solution. I'm now down with the death penalty for them. Everyone who transfers doesn't count towards the 85 for the new school. Can play immediately. Disruptive for sure, but the kids can pick out their best situation and the schools taking them have no risk past the tuition dollars.
 
Agree 100%. It's time for Penn State to regain its academic and values based focus while taking a football sabbatical.
 
Agree 100%. It's time for Penn State to regain its academic and values based focus while taking a football sabbatical.

It should be a permanent sabbatical.

Permanent.
 
It's clear, after seeing the emails, that the FOOTBALL PROGRAM was more important the welfare of innocent kids. How in the world do not not SERVERELY punish the FOOTBALL PROGRAM?

I don't understand the argument that you shouldn't punish today's players for something that occurred in the past. Look at our APR ban for God's sake.

Need a break from football for a couple of years in Happy Valley.
 
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I get the idea of not punishing the players there now, or the players at all, really. Not their fault. Totally agree.

But this is about the idea that this program, and the people running it, do not deserve the publicity of having a football team. They do not deserve the joys. They do not deserve the attention. They failed a basic human trust. They have forfeited their right to compete in college football ever again.

They need to get back to being an educational institution. The first step in that is learning a lesson themselves.
 
It's clear, after seeing the emails, that the FOOTBALL PROGRAM was more important the welfare of innocent kids. How in the world do not not SERVERELY punish the FOOTBALL PROGRAM?

I don't understand the argument that you shouldn't punish today's players for something that occurred in the past. Look at our APR ban for God's sake.

Need a break from football for a couple of years in Happy Valley.

I hope this doesn't come across as trivializing the events by reducing heinous crimes to football related NCAA punishments. The fact is that I can't find vitriol or invective to describe the outrage. The crimes committed by Sandusky and Penn State are the worst I've ever heard of within the context of college sports. In my opinion, what has happened at Penn State is worse than murder.

Anyway, Just finished an article in the "NY Post," headlined as:
"Penn State officials decided against reporting Sandusky after talking with Paterno: report"

If true (it is the "Post"), it means that the defenders of Paterno can no longer argue that the coach reported the incident to his superiors; on its face, a worthless argument, anyway. Sure he reported "it" to his superiors (were they really?). It seems that Joe forgot to mention that he successfully lobbied to keep the whole sordid mess under wraps during his "report."
While reading this thread I have always had one question: What, if anything, in it's by-laws allows the NCAA to get involved. Now that that there is evidence that the cover-up was led by Paterno, it has become a football matter related to the programs image especially as that image relates to Penn State maintaining it's ability to recruit. The NCAA is judge, jury, appeal hearer and executioner on all things related to recruiting. Further more, no NCAA violation I know of, including the SMU violations comes close to Sandusky's actions or the subsequent cover-up. Nothing!
 
There should be many more people facing prosecution than Sandusky, starting with his wife, and any "executive" administrator at PSU that knew of this and did nothing.

That said, other than out of spite, I don't know why anyone thinks the athletes who had absolutely nothing to do with this should be punished. Not a single player on our men's basketball team was around when the team was getting poor grades, but they all have to sit out the NCAA/Big East tourneys because of mistakes made by others. It would surprise to me to find out that any UConn fan would wish the same "justice" on other student athletes. I'll never understand why the NCAA, or anyone else, would think taking opportunities away (through post season play or even worse, scholarships) from innocent athletes is a just punishment for the behavior of others.

This is a perfectly rational position, and I understand it. But I strongly disagree. The NCAA can't implement rules that don't have at times serious collateral damage on the then players and fanbase of institutions. But if you don't allow for the collateral damage, there will not be tools for making anyone care about the rules.

This is why, as to the hoops APR, you never heard me say this was unfair to the current team. It is, but tough cookies. My problem with the APR punishment is that it's implementation counted years before the penalty for noncompliance was announced, and that having done so the NCAA is not doing everything in its power to lessen the impact of that by counting more recent academic years where the results are available.
 
Until I read your "reward schools for not raping children" post I thought your attack on innocent student athletes was half-genuine. Now I realize that you actually think taking scholarships away from kids is morally superior to sending criminals to jail.

You actually said schools should be rewarded for not raping children. In your twisted mind it's difficult to avoid raping children, and anyone who avoids it should be rewarded. You're a disgusting opportunist who isn't concerned with the victims or their families, you just want to take this opportunity to punish a football program that we typically can't compete with on several different levels.

If you want to punish "Penn State" why stop at football? Why not punish all of the sports? Since schools need to be taught that raping children is frowned upon by the NCAA, why not eliminate all sports for 2 years? Why not eliminate the psychology and criminal justice departments/courses thanks to the failings of the administration in those regards?

Since we're punishing innocent people in the name of justice, why not fine every football player who ever played for Penn State. That'll learn em.

You are the one defending the cover up of a serial, child rapist, not me. I don't know where you get "not concerned with the victims for the families" bs. Are you more concerned for the victims because you think the school that enabled their rape should not be punished? How exactly does that work?

By your logic, no one from a program you deem "inferior" to Penn State can opine on the appropriate punishment of a school that concealed a serial child rapist. I can not begin to explain how you reach THAT conclusion.

I am not sure whether to give you credit for these mind-bending logical gymnastics, or accuse you of being a sociopath. I actually don't think you are smart enough to understand your own position, so I will just give you a pass on a post that is so warped that it is offensive.
 
There is virtually no way to apply as penalty to a program caught violating the rules without penalizing "innocent" players. In the USC situation, Reggie Bush was long gone, for the NFL, as was Pete Carroll, before penalties were applied to USC. The NCAA has no mechanism, nor can one really be devised to penalize players and coaches and administrators who leave before the penalty is applied...further the penalty applies to the institution and the team which commits the violation, and it is applied on a going forward basis for the most part. So if a team loses scholarships, obivously it means that they have fewer to offer future players, likewise a bowl ban applies ot future bowls. You can disallow certain past results, but you can't "unplay" the games. The only meaningful way you can penalize a team is to deprive them of future benefits and by definition that impacts future, and thus likely innocent, players.
 
I get the idea of not punishing the players there now, or the players at all, really. Not their fault. Totally agree.

But this is about the idea that this program, and the people running it, do not deserve the publicity of having a football team. They do not deserve the joys. They do not deserve the attention. They failed a basic human trust. They have forfeited their right to compete in college football ever again.

They need to get back to being an educational institution. The first step in that is learning a lesson themselves.

WingU thinks you should shut up because you are a UConn fan.
 
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