Why Allen left the Celts

[BigErnMcCracken]

You're a wonderful poster, and I love to read and I respect everything you post.....except this. This is about as bad as the post about us not being elite anymore. Hey, Ray knows how good he is, the C's don't. That's okay, the C's will survive without one of the best shooting guards they've ever had. Without one of the most high character guys they've had in this Big Three Era. He knows he can still play at a high level, and doesn't need to be recruited over (Bradley/Terry). The C's haven't shown him much loyalty the last several years (always the topic of trade talks) and benched him in favor of Avery Bradley. Avery Bradley?!!!! He's made strides, is young, and has great promise. He is no Ray Allen. Ray helped bring them a title, and sacrificed so much. Without Ray, the C's would not have won the 2008 Finals. Ray is an extremely hard worker, is the consummate professional. Be happy for him. He is going somewhere where he will be appreciated.

I think this is exactly the type of thing you would expect to read from a UConn fan, but c'mon. Bradley was playing over Ray because Ray was a disaster with injuries down the stretch. He was giving them zero. Character and acting ability don't get you Ws in the playoffs. As far as loyalty goes, Pierce slogged it out on some awful teams (remember Vitaly Potapinko?) in some empty buildings and had his name thrown around in trades all the time and he stuck it out.

I'm happy for Ray that he's going to get another shot at a title but I'm also glad they've got one less ego to balance next year. I'm excited to see what Bradley can become.

 

[Husk-E]

I think this is exactly the type of thing you would expect to read from a UConn fan, but c'mon. Bradley was playing over Ray because Ray was a disaster with injuries down the stretch. He was giving them zero. Character and acting ability don't get you Ws in the playoffs. As far as loyalty goes, Pierce slogged it out on some awful teams (remember Vitaly Potapinko?) in some empty buildings and had his name thrown around in trades all the time and he stuck it out.

I'm happy for Ray that he's going to get another shot at a title but I'm also glad they've got one less ego to balance next year. I'm excited to see what Bradley can become.

What do you have against Ray? The Celtics haven't been loyal to him at all, considering they started Avery Bradley over him last season, and as far as ego goes, Ray isn't really that much of a concern. I think Ray was feeling under-appreciated by the C's and is probably very happy to get away from the team with the point guard he dislikes.

 

[Mots010]

I think this is exactly the type of thing you would expect to read from a UConn fan, but c'mon. Bradley was playing over Ray because Ray was a disaster with injuries down the stretch.

To be fair, it was Bradley who became useless due to injuries down the stretch, and will be useless for at least part of next season.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Lots of people defending Ray and getting after Nomar which is fair for a UConn board, on a Celtics board I think Nomar's opinion would be the consensus. I still think everyone needs to wait and see what Ray says after July 11th before accepting the Yahoo article as gospel. I find this decision really interesting and I hope Ray sheds some light on how & why he decided to join the Heat. One thing I virtually guarantee is Ray takes out a full page ad in the Globe thanking the Celtics fans.

I do think to accuse Ray of 'ring chasing' is awful hypocritical considering the Ray-Garnett-Pierce combination was put together for that reason and we (Celtics and UConn fans) all enjoyed watching it come to fruition. I can't recall if Ray had a trade veto/approval rights but Garnett did and was only willing to come to Boston once Ray Allen was a Celtic. The latest 'ring chasing' negativity obviously centers around LeBron and the Heat, but I think consensus there is that it was the way The Decision was done that was responsible for 75% of the backlash. Secondly I think it is a much different story when you are the #1 player in the world to align yourself with the #5 and #20 versus Ray who right now might be #100 picking a good fit and talented teammates.

Secondly in terms of almost beating the Heat, though the series went seven games the Celtics never had a chance in game 6 or game 7. Essentially once Bosh came back they were done. Now add Avery Bradley and Jeff Green to the mix and its arguably even, but cannot ignore the fact that the Heat won the NBA championship and elevated their level of play beginning with game 6. And then if they somehow won its theoretically possible the Celtics D in an eastern conference kinda way holds OKC in check, but I was fearful that either San Antonio or OKC would absolutely murder the Celtics who would have been huge underdogs and running on fumes of fumes fumage. The Celtics relied on guile and to some degree a Heat/LeBron mental barrier to stay in that series. Lastly even if everyone stayed put, going into next season the defending NBA champion Heat with pressures off LeBron are the consensus favorite.

 

[Huskies4ever]

I think this is exactly the type of thing you would expect to read from a UConn fan, but c'mon. Bradley was playing over Ray because Ray was a disaster with injuries down the stretch. He was giving them zero. Character and acting ability don't get you Ws in the playoffs. As far as loyalty goes, Pierce slogged it out on some awful teams (remember Vitaly Potapinko?) in some empty buildings and had his name thrown around in trades all the time and he stuck it out.

I'm happy for Ray that he's going to get another shot at a title but I'm also glad they've got one less ego to balance next year. I'm excited to see what Bradley can become.

If you've read my posts, I'm not just a Husky fan or a Ray Allen fan (how could you not be?) but I like the C's. Pierce was trade bait on crappy teams. Ray's been trade bait on conference contenders. Ray was the most underrated of the big three. He was disrespected, his pride was hurt. He took the high road and made a big move for himself. Youdiehard Celtic fans are all the same:"How dare someone leave our Holy franchise."

 

[nomar]

A couple points.

First, I don't think I represent the consensus of Celtics fans. I think they're much more pissed off than I am, generally speaking.

Second, DD, I don't see how you can accuse the Celtics' Big 3 of "ring chasing," when one player was already on the team and two were added by trades. Yeah, KG had to approve the trade, but it was a trade the Wolves wanted to make. It was also 3 older guys who had never won anything, getting together, knowing that they would have to earn a title. That ain't ring chasing. (I don't really think the LeBron/Bosh signings were "ring chasing" either -- that's really a term I use to describe older out-of-their-prime guys, usually guys who haven't won a title, latching onto the team favored to win the title. Which is Ray here, minus the "hasn't won a title" part.)

Finally, DD, I don't agree with your take on Game 7 of the ECF. The C's got outplayed in the second half, but they were in the game until late...and the Heat only ran away because Chris Bosh hit as many 3's in that game as he usually does in a season. I suppose I agree with the rest of your take on the NBA hierarchy, but Game 7 wasn't anything like Game 6 except for the fact that LeBron was the best player on the court.

 

[Dogdeacon]

A couple points.

First, I don't think I represent the consensus of Celtics fans. I think they're much more pissed off than I am, generally speaking.

Second, DD, I don't see how you can accuse the Celtics' Big 3 of "ring chasing," when one player was already on the team and two were added by trades. Yeah, KG had to approve the trade, but it was a trade the Wolves wanted to make. It was also 3 older guys who had never won anything, getting together, knowing that they would have to earn a title. That ain't ring chasing. (I don't really think the LeBron/Bosh signings were "ring chasing" either -- that's really a term I use to describe older out-of-their-prime guys, usually guys who haven't won a title, latching onto the team favored to win the title. Which is Ray here, minus the "hasn't won a title" part.)

Finally, DD, I don't agree with your take on Game 7 of the ECF. The C's got outplayed in the second half, but they were in the game until late...and the Heat only ran away because Chris Bosh hit as many 3's in that game as he usually does in a season. I suppose I agree with the rest of your take on the NBA hierarchy, but Game 7 wasn't anything like Game 6 except for the fact that LeBron was the best player on the court.

True I suppose, I've listened more to national sports stuff (PTI) that seems to generally find good reason for Allen's decision.

Good clarity on what you consider 'ring chasing' - so Ray on Heat is more like Pippen & Barkley on Houston or Malone on Lakers. Is Ray more or less justified in doing this because he's won one ring?? I'm not accusing anyone of ring chasing and I think it is meaningless concept with respect to sports* or at least one that does not negatively affect my view of an athlete unless there is another negative issue involved (LeBron, Carlos Boozer also screwing Cleveland though not much of a winning chance, Shaq?! - I pretty much agreed with his decision to go from Orlando to LA) Was Robert Horry a ring chaser? Steve Kerr? Derek Fischer? My guess is there is going to be someone every year and if it doesn't work you are a 'ring chaser' and if it does it adds to your legacy as a player and a champion. I think that could be very much in Ray's mind as he switches teams. I liken it to switching to a competitor company at work if that competitor is eating your lunch. Clearly there are some circumstances that would call for loyalty, but I think replicate Ray's exact situation into the business world and 95% of folks go with the 'growing company'.

We must agree to disagree on Celtics-Heat. What I watched in the NBA playoffs was LeBron emerge as an unstoppable will-not-be-denied force and I think that will continue for years to come. I don't think he was going to let anyone beat him and he proved as much.

*outside of sports example: clearly Lynnette was an evil ring chaser and whereas Paula was a ring chaser by definition, because her pursuit of Zach Mayo was honest and true she got the ring she richly deserved and lived happily ever after whereas evil ring chaser Lynnette (bodacious ta-ta's notwithstanding) is an old nope hag still working at the factory. So I guess my ring chasing extenuating evil circumstances theory applies everywhere. But unless you do something else bad aren't we all supposed to strive for the brass/engagement/championship ring?!

 

[nomar]

I cannot opine on the Lynnette/Paula/Zach love triangle, as I had to Google those names to even know what you were talking about.

Yeah, people throw the term "ring chaser" around. It helps to clarify, so I'll clarify further (as this is a more interesting discussion at this point than the Ray stuff, which is going in circles).

I think the worst example you can point to is Karl Malone and Gary Payton joining the Lakers. Two vets, who had led teams to the Finals but lost, jumped onto a team they were CERTAIN would win a title for them. That hits all my points of ring chasing: (a) a past-his-prime superstar who (b) hasn't won a title and (c) has tons of cash and who (d) foregoes more short-term money and his long-time team to (e) sign with a team he expects to win him a ring (e) without him having to do much besides come off the bench and hit a few shots.

I was offended by that. Fans are offended by it. (If a player is traded, that's different. For as harsh as Boston fans can be, recall how supportive they were of Ray Borque when he won a cup with the Avalanche.) And at least to me, it matters not one whit whether or not the team actually wins a title or not. If you chased a ring, you chased it, regardless of whether you got it or not.

So the Malone/Payton situation is the perfect example. When a player signs on expecting to play a major role, I think it's a little different. Take Rasheed Wallace on the Celtics. (They needed him to play major minutes -- unfortunately, neither they nor he expected him to play MAJOR minutes in Perkins's absence from the lineup.) Yeah, he joined a great team, but that team needed him. (Plus he had won a title.)

So, returning to Ray for a minute, I don't think this a bad case of ring-chasing. It seems clear that he left not because he thought Miami was better but, rather, because he wanted out of Boston. Would he have signed with some random team if Miami wasn't interested? Probably not. He probably would have swallowed his medicine and re-signed. But this opportunity presented itself and he took it. I don't think it's to burnish his legacy; I don't really see how it could. He already has a title; being a supporting player on a couple more won't really change what people think about how good a player he was. The only thing for sure is that #20 won't be hanging in the Garden rafters, which, as a UConn and Celtics fan, is a real shame.

 

[huskypantz]

on a Celtics board I think Nomar's opinion would be the consensus.

Boston sports fans think every Red Sox should take a hometown discount when contract discussions come around, that it's worth playing for $2 mil less just to come be a part of Belichek's Pats etc. Just wait until the C's clear their roster and try to attract big money talent - only to see the player(s) go elsewhere. I think it's just a spoiled fanbase that expects things to go their way most of the time. And I say that as a Boston-area resident.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I think its a reach to say Ray's #20 would hang in the rafters. He was a better player on both Seattle and the Bucks and they at LEAST would have had to win another NBA championship (maybe) with Ray playing a major role (doubtful) for that to occur. Maybe Celtics hall of fame whatever that is or means but retired number is farfetched.

A mostly bad and annoying click-thru site Bleacher report comes up when searching for ring chasers. They name Malone and Payton among top-3 worst with Shaq #1. Interesting names on the list include
Artest - I think no as key player & starter needed a new team/identity
Mitch Richmond - won a ring as an almost unused reserve for Lakers in 02 so your bad case scenario, but honestly I don't think many people remember this of him.
Alonzo - I think the very best case of ring chasing as he came back from life threatening injury and his reserve role was necessary and a big part of ring.
Barkley - negative, but given how futile his teams had gotten in Philly I don't think he's blamed, he had to try something.
MFinley - He defected to a competitor so pretty similar to Ray, Finley did win but was never the same player - just desserts??!

 

[Waquoit]

Um, what piling on? The most scathing piece so far was written by Wojo, who is a national guy.

The vast majority of the Boston media has (surprisingly) come to Ray's defense. It's the fans who have been, and continue to, rip him.

You must have missed Felger and Mazz. Mazz was ruthless. The guy treated Clemens with more respect.

 

[nomar]

Boston sports fans think every Red Sox should take a hometown discount when contract discussions come around, that it's worth playing for $2 mil less just to come be a part of Belichek's Pats etc. Just wait until the C's clear their roster and try to attract big money talent - only to see the player(s) go elsewhere. I think it's just a spoiled fanbase that expects things to go their way most of the time. And I say that as a Boston-area resident.

That would be a relevant point if the Celtics hadn't offered him twice as much as money as the Heat did. Nobody asked Ray for a hometown discount. More like a hometown bonus.

And I can't remember the last time the Celtics landed a big-time free agent (unless you count PJ Brown, Rasheed or Jason Terry -- I don't), so I'm not sure where you get the idea that Celtics fans expect the Celtics to sign whoever they want.

 

[nomar]

I think its a reach to say Ray's #20 would hang in the rafters. He was a better player on both Seattle and the Bucks and they at LEAST would have had to win another NBA championship (maybe) with Ray playing a major role (doubtful) for that to occur. Maybe Celtics hall of fame whatever that is or means but retired number is farfetched.

A mostly bad and annoying click-thru site Bleacher report comes up when searching for ring chasers. They name Malone and Payton among top-3 worst with Shaq #1. Interesting names on the list include
Artest - I think no as key player & starter needed a new team/identity
Mitch Richmond - won a ring as an almost unused reserve for Lakers in 02 so your bad case scenario, but honestly I don't think many people remember this of him.
Alonzo - I think the very best case of ring chasing as he came back from life threatening injury and his reserve role was necessary and a big part of ring.
Barkley - negative, but given how futile his teams had gotten in Philly I don't think he's blamed, he had to try something.
MFinley - He defected to a competitor so pretty similar to Ray, Finley did win but was never the same player - just desserts??!

Interesting list. Don't disagree with anything.

As for Ray's #20, a lot of people think that he hadn't earned it yet, but if he played another 2-3 years with the team and retired as a Celtic, they'd do it. Because you know #34 and #5 are going up there, so it would be kind of an insult to Ray to not do it. Kind or ironic to think of it that way.

 

[Robertelamin]

5 years is kinda short but if Ray goes into the Hall of Fame as a Celtic and would imagine the C's would eventually retire his number.

 

[huskypantz]

That would be a relevant point if the Celtics hadn't offered him twice as much as money as the Heat did. Nobody asked Ray for a hometown discount. More like a hometown bonus.

And I can't remember the last time the Celtics landed a big-time free agent (unless you count PJ Brown, Rasheed or Jason Terry -- I don't), so I'm not sure where you get the idea that Celtics fans expect the Celtics to sign whoever they want.

The point was that Boston fans think that what's good for them/Boston is good for the athlete.

 

[UConn990411]

The point was that Boston fans think that what's good for them/Boston is good for the athlete.

Um, you pretty much described every fan base since the beginning of time (including UConn fans).

 

[UConn990411]

You must have missed Felger and Mazz. Mazz was ruthless. The guy treated Clemens with more respect.

That's two people. Pretty much everyone else has come to his defense.

 

[Huskies4ever]

I think its a reach to say Ray's #20 would hang in the rafters. He was a better player on both Seattle and the Bucks and they at LEAST would have had to win another NBA championship (maybe) with Ray playing a major role (doubtful) for that to occur. Maybe Celtics hall of fame whatever that is or means but retired number is farfetched.

A mostly bad and annoying click-thru site Bleacher report comes up when searching for ring chasers. They name Malone and Payton among top-3 worst with Shaq #1. Interesting names on the list include
Artest - I think no as key player & starter needed a new team/identity
Mitch Richmond - won a ring as an almost unused reserve for Lakers in 02 so your bad case scenario, but honestly I don't think many people remember this of him.
Alonzo - I think the very best case of ring chasing as he came back from life threatening injury and his reserve role was necessary and a big part of ring.
Barkley - negative, but given how futile his teams had gotten in Philly I don't think he's blamed, he had to try something.
MFinley - He defected to a competitor so pretty similar to Ray, Finley did win but was never the same player - just desserts??!

Didn't even remember Mitch won a ring. He was such a great player in his prime.

 

[Huskies4ever]

Interesting list. Don't disagree with anything.

As for Ray's #20, a lot of people think that he hadn't earned it yet, but if he played another 2-3 years with the team and retired as a Celtic, they'd do it. Because you know #34 and #5 are going up there, so it would be kind of an insult to Ray to not do it. Kind or ironic to think of it that way.

Seriously, Nomar, how many #'s are the C's gonna have left after 5, 34, 20?

 

[Huskies4ever]

You must have missed Felger and Mazz. Mazz was ruthless. The guy treated Clemens with more respect.

There's a reason why nobody gives a poop about Felger and Mazz.

 

[Gurleyman]

I don't believe any leaks about a possible no-trade clause. Would be a stupid move by the Celtics and they aren't a stupid franchise. Perhaps I'm being stubborn in my refusal to believe it - but a $6 mil expiring contract would be a valuable commodity to a team looking to re-shape it's core in the next two years.

The ring-chasing thing has some element of truth to it, but it loses some of its teeth in my eyes due to the fact that the Clippers were involved as well before withdrawing and cutting his options, and due to the reality of the basketball fit. With Mike Miller probably done, the Heat had a vacancy they needed filling, and Ray was not getting many open looks with the Celtics any more. People didn't help off him when Rondo or Pierce drove and he wasn't able to free himself off the ball as much. Ray would have 8-point games in 35 minutes of PT, but it was because he would shoot 2-for-6, not 2-for-14 (ie not getting shots vs being cold).

Ray's value in free agency is also really only for contending teams. He's clearly an old "gun for hire", but old guns for hire are useless if they don't have some horses to ride.



Sent from my BlackBerry 9930 using Tapatalk

 

[champs99and04]

I gotta say, Ray has been one of my 2 favorite basketball players since he came to Storrs (look at my avatar), but he comes out of this looking like a little crybaby. Paul Pierce has heard his name floated in trade rumors, has been recruited by other teams and players, has played for some terrible teams, and kept his mouth shut and stayed loyal.

Yeah, I understand why Ray has been ticked off -- I can understand him not being pleased about being offered to Memphis and not getting along with Rondo (although, again, be a pro about it, dude), but the not-starting thing was a joke. Bradley out-played him.

I'm one of the few Sox fans who didn't think Damon "betrayed" us even though he "promised" to never sign with the Yanks. They offered him $10M more than the Sox did. It's hard to blame someone. He wasn't then a 40-year-old guy; he was still in his prime.

Here, on the other hand, as the article points out, the Celtics showed Ray a lot of respect this off-season. They offered him a nice deal, doubling the Heat. And there has been talk of a no-trade clause; so people can't say "he didn't want to be traded" until we find out whether or not the Celts actually offered to include a no-trade clause.

He just didn't want to hear it, I guess. The ship had sailed. He was looking for a new suitor to whisper sweet nothings in his ear. Have fun, Ray. I can't say I wish success for you, but good luck. You did what you had to do and I'll do what I have to: not be a big fan anymore.

I, like many others, feel that you are one of the better posters here. But for you to throw 16 years out the window because of a decision that he felt would benefit him and his family is, to put it nicely, weak. The writing was on the wall for Ray in Boston. Yeah, they offered him a decent paycheck, but with Terry coming in and Bradley likely returning some time in December, he was looking at a reduced role. Ray opting to head to Miami where he could shoot open threes and not play with a PG he hated, was in my estimation, logical.

I highly doubt this has much to do with Ray wanting his ego massaged - he felt that in Miami he would play a bigger role, with better teammates, in a nicer city. I think it's really as simple as that.

 

[Waquoit]

There's a reason why nobody gives a poop about Felger and Mazz.

I'm no fan, I just happened to catch the rant on TV. But they do get higher ratings than the Big Show.

 

[nomar]

Seriously, Nomar, how many #'s are the C's gonna have left after 5, 34, 20?

Once you get above #50, it's all smooth sailing! That's why E'Twaun Moore had #55 wide open for him (shockingly, Eric Williams didn't get that number retired...).

 

[nomar]

I'm getting killed in this thread...but I can understand it and take it. He's a Husky, and we Husky fans back our guys. That's why at the end of the day, I can be mad at Ray but I can't be that mad.

 

[JaYnYcE]

Ring chasing, d(i)ck riding, coat tail hanging. It's all the same thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Huskymaniac]

Ring chasing, d(i)ck riding, coat tail hanging. It's all the same thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Were you dropped on your head as a baby?

 

[Huskymaniac]

He's clearly an old "gun for hire", but old guns for hire are useless if they don't have some horses to ride.

Ooooh, I like that! Did you make that up yourself? Either way, it is a perfect analogy.

 

[Huskymaniac]

I think this is exactly the type of thing you would expect to read from a UConn fan, but c'mon. Bradley was playing over Ray because Ray was a disaster with injuries down the stretch. He was giving them zero. Character and acting ability don't get you Ws in the playoffs. As far as loyalty goes, Pierce slogged it out on some awful teams (remember Vitaly Potapinko?) in some empty buildings and had his name thrown around in trades all the time and he stuck it out.

I'm happy for Ray that he's going to get another shot at a title but I'm also glad they've got one less ego to balance next year. I'm excited to see what Bradley can become.

So Clothy is back to using both of his aliases.......

By the way, umess fans can go back to hating Ray Allen again.......

 

[Gurleyman]

I hope you don't feel I'm piling on Nomar. Your points are fair an certainly discussion-worthy. Personally, I kinda wanted him to go to the Clippers - team with Caron and not create a soap opera that damages his image a bit. I didn't see Boston as a great fit for him any more, but if he stayed - I would have been content that he had a clear "team" to go into the HOF with.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9930 using Tapatalk