Whos on your coaching Mt. Rushmore?

[UConnWingman]

Do you seriously not understand how much less control a left fielder has over a baseball team's ability to win championships than a head coach does over a college basketball team's ability to win championships? Williams didn't win because his teammates weren't as good as DiMaggio's and Mantle's, and the Yankees were loaded for most of his career. What was stopping Smith? He recruited all the players, developed them, and coached the games. If the team doesn't win, that's 100% on him.

That he was a nice guy who graduated players means very little in terms of ranking him as a basketball coach.

What I seriously don't understand is how the comparison deserves to broken down in such an extreme fashion. But to play your game, assuming it's 100% on the coach for a team's failure to win it all is kind of an asinine thing to say. Did Rollie Massimino coach his team to shoot 80% from the field the night they beat Georgetown? Did Jim Calhoun coach Scott Burrell's pass to Tate George? Coaches do their thing, and players do theirs.

 

[UConnWingman]

You aren't seriously bringing up academics as a feather in Dean Smith's cap are you? Been following the news lately? All that crap started under him - and who knows what he might have getting away with before that.

To me, there are arguments for and against him as a coach. For long term consistent excellence, he's up there with the best. Maybe deserving of the top four. UNC was a top 10 team for the better part of 20 years. That's hard to do. For achieving what he should with the teams he had, his resume comes up a little short. I thought about Bobby Cox as a comparison - had the best team in baseball for a decade and won once - but that's selling him short since Cox gets little respect. Maybe Don Shula is better - did get to the winning circle twice (consecutively) but came up short for 12 years with Marino and is probably behind some combination of Lombardi, Noll, Belichick, Parcells, Landry and Walsh.

Smith's two titles are remembered more for what the other guys did (Brown to Worthy, Webber timeout) than what UNC did, fairly or unfairly. But that makes it hard to consider either of those wins a signature coaching achievement.

Shula is twice the coach Parcells was. Please note: Parcells never won jack without Belichick's dominant defense.

Yes, I follow the news, and what we know is that the scandal is proven to go back 18 years. Dean Smith retired in 1997, or 18 years ago. I'm not absolving him, but the numbers seem to do just that.

 

[Gurleyman]

Shula is twice the coach Parcells was. Please note: Parcells never won jack without Belichick's dominant defense. Yes, I follow the news, and what we know is that the scandal is proven to go back 18 years. Dean Smith retired in 1997, or 18 years ago. I'm not absolving him, but the numbers seem to do just that.

You didn't read closely enough. Scandal goes back to 1993.

Shula never won except with that one core group of players and coaching staffs in two straight seasons. Super Bowl XXV was perhaps the greatest coaching job in Super Bowl history. Parcells won with his back up QB against a heavy favorite - held the ball for 40 minutes.

 

[UConnWingman]

The line was 7 points, and Hostetler was probably the best backup QB in the NFL at the time (he'd been Simms' backup for several years). You can also credit Belichick's defense to holding the Bills to only 19 points, as well.

 

[CallMeBruce]

What I seriously don't understand is how the comparison deserves to broken down in such an extreme fashion. But to play your game, assuming it's 100% on the coach for a team's failure to win it all is kind of an asinine thing to say. Did Rollie Massimino coach his team to shoot 80% from the field the night they beat Georgetown? Did Jim Calhoun coach Scott Burrell's pass to Tate George? Coaches do their thing, and players do theirs.

Right, but Smith and Calhoun are the ones who recruited those players and put them in those spots. Yeah, there's still some luck involved, but Williams wasn't also the Red Sox GM and manager. He wasn't teaching guys how to hit or pitch. He didn't decide the lineup or rotation. He just played baseball, and baseball is a particularly difficult sport for an individual player to impact.

 

[nomar]

Calipari, Coach K, Lappas, Jarvis

And 3 trucks full of explosives

 

[Gurleyman]

The line was 7 points, and Hostetler was probably the best backup QB in the NFL at the time (he'd been Simms' backup for several years). You can also credit Belichick's defense to holding the Bills to only 19 points, as well.

A job made easier by the fact that the Bills only had the ball for 20 minutes. Certainly Belichick deserves a ton of credit - the whole coaching staff does. But the head coach is the guy in charge. Parcells took over a franchise that was reeling, developed them into a playoff team right away, built a Super Bowl team within five years, and won a second with one of the greatest staff-wide coaching performances in NFL history. It wasn't like they took advantage of turnovers or fluky plays - there were no turnovers and the closest thing to a lucky break was a long missed FG.

Hostelter was an unproven back up - little big game experience. At the time, no Giants fans were saying, "it's ok - Jeff's got this." Certainly not after beating SF without a touchdown. They were also using a past his prime Ottis Anderson who they picked up off the scrap heap and Rodney Hampton - a change of pace guy with younger legs - was out. The Giants got that patchwork unit to hold the ball for 40 minutes, eat up 10 on one touchdown drive alone, and, yes, slowed the Bills down on D - Belichick made the Bills run more than they wanted. It was a staff-wide coaching success story.

For what it's worth, Parcells also took the Pats to the Super Bowl quickly after taking over there. That wasn't a hollow achievement.

 

[CTBasketball]

If you guys wanna be tricky, you can run at em' with a Calhoun.

 

[gtcam]

Calhoun was a fantastic coach, who took a sleeping giant all the way to the top. But don't kid yourself: if it wasn't Calhoun, it would've been somebody else. Connecticut was just itching to explode onto the scene as a member of the Big East, while being a couple hours from the media capital of the world. Hell, if you could ask coach Calhoun himself, he'd just say "I'm just flattered to have my name mentioned in the same sentence as Dean Smith's".

These are broad, and i feel, baseless statements.
Did you ask JC the question?
What makes you think UConn w/o JC would have been different from DePaul, BC, PC etc?
Because CT is a couple hours away from NYC? so isn't PC and BC (also Boston is a media giant in itself) - Chicago isn't a hub?
I'm not saying JC is JC himself (or am I?!!) but what he did at UConn is nothing less than spectacular.

 

[Gurleyman]

These are broad, and i feel, baseless statements. Did you ask JC the question? What makes you think UConn w/o JC would have been different from DePaul, BC, PC etc? Because CT is a couple hours away from NYC? so isn't PC and BC (also Boston is a media giant in itself) - Chicago isn't a hub? I'm not saying JC is JC himself (or am I?!!) but what he did at UConn is nothing less than spectacular.

St Johns is in NYC and is still waiting for their first. Their recent coaching legend went to one FF.

Or you can look at Rutgers - just not without protective eyewear.

 

[gtcam]

You aren't seriously bringing up academics as a feather in Dean Smith's cap are you? Been following the news lately? All that crap started under him - and who knows what he might have getting away with before that.

To me, there are arguments for and against him as a coach. For long term consistent excellence, he's up there with the best. Maybe deserving of the top four. UNC was a top 10 team for the better part of 20 years. That's hard to do. For achieving what he should with the teams he had, his resume comes up a little short. I thought about Bobby Cox as a comparison - had the best team in baseball for a decade and won once - but that's selling him short since Cox gets little respect. Maybe Don Shula is better - did get to the winning circle twice (consecutively) but came up short for 12 years with Marino and is probably behind some combination of Lombardi, Noll, Belichick, Parcells, Landry and Walsh.

Smith's two titles are remembered more for what the other guys did (Brown to Worthy, Webber timeout) than what UNC did, fairly or unfairly. But that makes it hard to consider either of those wins a signature coaching achievement.

Spot on - My point about his two wins - both came at the expense of two fluke events
Besides, if the players weren't going to Kentucky or UCLA - they went to UNC
I'm not saying the guy couldn't coach or wasn't loved but the more things that come out, the more tarnished he looks - maybe everyone has those skeletons

 

[weyuo]

• Wooden: Should be at the top of anyone's list with 10 titles, 4 perfect seasons

• Auriemma: 9 NCAA titles, 6 times Coach of the Year, 5 perfect seasons

• Summit: 8 time NCAA champion, 7 times NCAA Coach of the Year

• Rupp: Was an early innovator of the fast break and set offense. His offense consisted of 10-15 set plays (with variations for each), complete with extensive offensive movement and screening. Early basketball innovations such as the "guard around" play and inside screen were first developed by Rupp in the 1930s. Likewise, he was an early proponent of the fast break, which his Kentucky teams utilized at every opportunity throughout his career. In addition, for most of his coaching career Rupp's defensive philosophy was largely exclusive, as he preferred only a tight man-to-man defense. However, during the 1963-64 season, Rupp became one of the first coaches to begin experimenting with the trapping 1-3-1 zone defense, and his Kentucky teams utilized this defense at times for the remainder of his career.(from Wikipedia)

 

[msgordon]

Calhoun was a fantastic coach, who took a sleeping giant all the way to the top. But don't kid yourself: if it wasn't Calhoun, it would've been somebody else. Connecticut was just itching to explode onto the scene as a member of the Big East, while being a couple hours from the media capital of the world. Hell, if you could ask coach Calhoun himself, he'd just say "I'm just flattered to have my name mentioned in the same sentence as Dean Smith's".

this is a pretty bizarre take. are you childhood friends with dean smith or something?

 

[uconnbill]

Wooden, Knight, JC, and K would be my top four and of all time.

Dean would have been there if not for the academic scandal, but that taints his accomplishments imho

 

[CallMeBruce]

If we're bumping people for cheating, how does Wooden get on there? Did he have any players who weren't paid?

 

[tzznandrew]

If we're bumping people for cheating, how does Wooden get on there? Did he have any players who weren't paid?

This is right.

But I'm not bumping Smith for any (potential) involvement in the UNC academic scandal. I'm bumping him because, relative to those 4, he achieved less.

 

[TheChamps990411]

Geno, Pat Summit, Sylvia Hatchell and Muffet McGraw

We`re talking about real basketball coaches.

 

[CallMeBruce]

This is right.

But I'm not bumping Smith for any (potential) involvement in the UNC academic scandal. I'm bumping him because, relative to those 4, he achieved less.

I'm not arguing with that. I don't know if he makes mine or not, but I can certainly see the argument for not including him.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Calhoun was a fantastic coach, who took a sleeping giant all the way to the top. But don't kid yourself: if it wasn't Calhoun, it would've been somebody else. Connecticut was just itching to explode onto the scene as a member of the Big East, while being a couple hours from the media capital of the world. Hell, if you could ask coach Calhoun himself, he'd just say "I'm just flattered to have my name mentioned in the same sentence as Dean Smith's".

Ms. Smith, I understand this has been a difficult few weeks for you, so maybe posting on internet message board isn't the best way to channel your grief.

 

[mauconnfan]

We`re talking about real basketball coaches.

Oh my bad

 

[champs99and04]

The best comparison for Dean Smith would be Joe Paterno. Both guys coached for a billion years and were really good at what they did, but neither reached the pinnacle of the profession enough to be considered among the top four ever, IMO.

I'm biased, but to me, Calhoun is as much as a lock as anybody else. His biography will be limited relative to some of the other greats in part because it took him so long to get to where he did, and even after he got there, it was a long building process to elevate the program to a level of sustained excellence. He won despite some major recruiting obstacles, fought through a variety of health problems, and even handpicked a successor who won a title two years after he retired. He is the best program builder ever.

I have Rupp on there, too. The fact that he won in an era of segregation doesn't really make his accomplishments less impressive to me - everybody was playing by the same rules. He is the founding father of what most consider to be the best college basketball program ever, so it is tough to justify leaving him off.

My other two would be K and Wooden. If K wins tonight, it will be hard to argue that he isn't the greatest ever.

Narrowly missing the cut is Bob Knight.

 

[BLUEDOGHOUSE]

The best comparison for Dean Smith would be Joe Paterno. Both guys coached for a billion years and were really good at what they did, but neither reached the pinnacle of the profession enough to be considered among the top four ever, IMO.

I'm biased, but to me, Calhoun is as much as a lock as anybody else. His biography will be limited relative to some of the other greats in part because it took him so long to get to where he did, and even after he got there, it was a long building process to elevate the program to a level of sustained excellence. He won despite some major recruiting obstacles, fought through a variety of health problems, and even handpicked a successor who won a title two years after he retired. He is the best program builder ever.

I have Rupp on there, too. The fact that he won in an era of segregation doesn't really make his accomplishments less impressive to me - everybody was playing by the same rules. He is the founding father of what most consider to be the best college basketball program ever, so it is tough to justify leaving him off.

My other two would be K and Wooden. If K wins tonight, it will be hard to argue that he isn't the greatest ever.

Narrowly missing the cut is Bob Knight.

Don't see Duke winning...but

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Calipari, Coach K, Lappas, Jarvis

And 3 trucks full of explosives

Lappas & Jarvis kind of blew themselves up.

 

[TheRealKBuks]

Ted Williams' job was to hit the baseball. He did that incredibly well. Dean Smith's job was win titles. He did that very well, but not as well as the 4 others people mentioned. The HOF can elect unlimited numbers of people. A Mt. Rushmore can only do 4 people. It isn't apples to apples.

You could also say that Ted Williams job was to win World Series which he failed to do, or that deans job was to win basketball games. Dean smith certainly deserves to be on any men's BBall mt Rushmore

 

[champs99and04]

You could also say that Ted Williams job was to win World Series which he failed to do, or that deans job was to win basketball games. Dean smith certainly deserves to be on any men's BBall mt Rushmore

If we're going to use wins as our criteria let's go ahead and give Boeheim a spot.