Who wins this weekend? #6 Notre Dame at #3 U$C, #1 SCAR at #5 fUCLA

[BobbyJ]

Gottlieb came back to college with a lot of fanfare but I'm still not impressed with the in-game coaching and offensive system, need to see more besides great recruiting

What offensive system? Watkins’ relentless pursuit of her own points basically negates Iriafen’s potential value on offense.

 

[cancontent]

They looked pretty darn good out there today and sadly that conversation will not stop. Whenever they have a tough game or suffer a loss, some commentator is going to bring up how "Miles and Hidalgo" can't function together. "One guard plays better this way, and the other guard plays better that way"

I haven't heard that in the media. I've only seen this discussed on the BY General board.

 

[Reypl21]

Also, Citron has gotten off to a slow start this season offensively. This game she had a good reason to be off because so much energy was spent defending Watkins. She's coming off an injury. Citron and Westbeld were playing at a high level last season. This team can get so much better.

 

[Rb335]

Juju scored 8 points in the final 2.5 minutes when USC was already down 21. I wasn’t really impressed. Her game is mainly iso ball, and she got her pocket picked or dribbled into a crowd a number of times.

I’d argue she’s one of the best players in the open court that I’ve seen. But in the half court she doesn’t really understand how to move off the ball to generate looks. And the coaching doesn’t help that. So many dismal offensive sets that didn’t generate anything beyond a turnover or forced shot by usc.

Interested to see the final tally of the USC, ND, UCONN round robin.

 

[Dillon77]

Also, Citron has gotten off to a slow start this season offensively. This game she had a good reason to be off because so much energy was spent defending Watkins. She's coming off an injury. Citron and Westbeld were playing at a high level last season. This team can get so much better.

I agree with that as one point, but there's another: in the past two years, Citron was the number #2 option off the point guard - first, Miles, then Hidalgo. This year, she's the third and she's coming off time lost to an injury. Ivey, Citron, Miles and Hidalgo need to work to get Citron incorporated....which they will as time goes on.

Then, Westbeld comes back.

Like you said, though, Citron adds value in other ways. It just isn't USC's ineffectual half-court sets that did them in -- Citron made Watkins work, hard, harder, hardest. And Watkins lost focus...which is when ND took off. She mostly scored unsettled open-court situations (which she's really good at) or during "garbage time," to paraphrase Marv Albert. And Citron wasn't in during the last two minuets of the game. Pro scouts will note that defensive effort by Soni.

 

[jdote33]

USC is almost a repeat of LSU last year. LSU was the media. My darling preseason, based on portal additions. LSU tried to turn Hailey Van Lith into a pg but when that failed they struggled. USC has a few outstanding players who can beat most other teams by themselves and look great doing it but they have no one to play pg and their ball security was non-existent today. I think the official scorer missed some TO's. It appears that NDame's plan was to double the ball every time it went inside and USC made it easy when their inside players started dribbling whenever they got the ball down low. .

Yeah. I will say similarly LSU kinda overachieved and won a natty. They easily coulda lost to Utah and ended up with a weird matchup to make the final 4. But they earned a title. The following year they had a ton of expectations and never quite fit. I still actually think they had a good year last year making the elite 8. I think usc overachieved last year, winning the pac and getting to the elite 8. I also feel like their ivy seniors were so selfless and good fits. I underestimated this. I thought their freshman were more athletic and skilled. I think they need tvo and their freshman point Heckel to really lead. Juju almost can't help to be ultra aggressive and I'm not sure if Gotlieb needs to somewhat reel her in. It's just tough when players aren't in rhythm and not sure when they'll get the ball. I even saw it a tiny bit on the Notre Dame side, liatu king waiting for the pass off the pop. But overall they did better getting points in transition and off rebounds.

 

[Bone Dog]

Sorry but ND 74 USC 61 deals with that and just says ND should have and could have broken 100. Things like Citron being completely involved in defense, a sometimes crazy whistle or silent whistle, and focusing on speed and fast breaks. It should have been more controlled but it was a win.

I'm confused. Did you think I was criticizing ND? Sorry to disappoint, but USC should be embarrassed by giving up those 17 steals. Sure, ND could have blown them out even worse, but this is early in the season. They'll be a handful for any team they meet all season. They should be #2 or #3, and USC should probably drop to #10 or below.

 

[cancontent]

ND's shooting was good from the field 46.8% 33.3% from three but the free throw shooting showed they were "juiced" and that has to change. Citron hasn't been shooting well since her return but she finally got going at the end.

The other note is rebounding, USC was supposed to dominate with their height but I was surprised ND out rebounded them 41-38.

Can you clarify how this response relates to my post about Smith being out of the game?

 

[GoChips20]

It’s easy to overlook in the wake of Citron’s defense on Juju and Hidalgo/Miles controlling the game, but I was very impressed with ND’s frontcourt duo of King and Koval. King battled foul trouble but when she was in the game she was an energizer bunny and bothered Iriafen defensively. Her midrange buckets also helped break open the floor. I think Liatu King could be a high-reward second-round draft pick for someone.

Early on I was frustrated by Koval’s rebounding, but as the game went on I was impressed by her defensive force. She was consistently in the right position and helped prevent a number of easy looks at the rim. She wasn’t a major factor offensively but did show a nice touch when she scored. She gives Notre Dame a target in the paint who can wall up defensively.

Overall, ND is as good as I thought they’d be. Hidalgo and Miles play well together and most of the pieces around them are good enough to be #1 or #2 options on other top 25 teams. If they can get Westbeld and Karlen back healthy this team may be the national title favorite.

Right now they’re as good as anyone in the country, but something ND does need to look out for is how to better integrate their star guards in sets. Hidalgo and Miles were much better together in transition than halfcourt — but I also think ND’s defense and pace are going to allow them to play in transition almost at will. USC’s defense is also very good which was a factor today.

Great win for the Irish. Is this Ivey’s first top-3 win at ND?

 

[Stagnant]

I think Hidalgo gets a generous whistle on defense. And she is allowed to be more aggressive than other defensive players. She even gets away with hand checking. I hope refs whistle her when UConn plays Notre dame. Because if they don’t. That crowd will explode. And it will be a long day for the huskies.

 

[WBBTakeover]

Gottlieb came back to college with a lot of fanfare but I'm still not impressed with the in-game coaching and offensive system, need to see more besides great recruiting

This is who she is (and is going to be), and hardly any real noise will be made about it unless JuJu ends her career without a natty.

 

[Bone Dog]

I think Hidalgo gets a generous whistle on defense. And she is allowed to be more aggressive than other defensive players. She even gets away with hand checking. I hope refs whistle her when UConn plays Notre dame. Because if they don’t. That crowd will explode. And it will be a long day for the huskies.

I hadn’t noticed a generous whistle. Hannah takes a lot of chances on defense but is quick enough to recover. I suspect Niele has given her a green light to take all the chances. I think a lot of the steals others got were indirectly cause by Hannah creating tension among the USC players. She sped them up.

I think the only way to deal with her is to try to contain her offense, and that is no easy task. She is pretty much only able to score going right, but she is quick enough to blow past a defender on the left and then cut back right. The second line of defense in the paint has to read the scout too. Also, there’s too many other weapons to simply key on Hannah.

I like Koval. She’s huge and slow moving. But she plays within herself and rarely seems out of position. If Maddy returns before January, they will be able to make a run in March. I think this is the best squad in South Bend in several years.

 

[jdote33]

The last play is a perfect example of what others have mentioned. She'll gamble, miss and still get back in the play. I may be drinking the Kool aid but I literally can't think of someone who plays with as much energy. Also if u check the score on some of her buckets, they were so timely.

 

[Boreifs]

Both teams play six players. ND really needs those post players to come back and Hidalgo and Miles will need to play 38-40 minutes a game. We saw what happened last year when that was a necessity.

 

[Dillon77]

The last play is a perfect example of what others have mentioned. She'll gamble, miss and still get back in the play. I may be drinking the Kool aid but I literally can't think of someone who plays with as much energy. Also if u check the score on some of her buckets, they were so timely.

A part of her game that has improved since last year: her ability to hit mid-range jumpers off the pull-up. It was good last year. Now, it's one of the cornerstones of her game. But you're right -- it's the energy and continued focus. It powers up everyone: Cass Prosper is flying around this year like I've never seen.

 

[cancontent]

The last play is a perfect example of what others have mentioned. She'll gamble, miss and still get back in the play. I may be drinking the Kool aid but I literally can't think of someone who plays with as much energy. Also if u check the score on some of her buckets, they were so timely.

That's the play that had me hollering. It's like watching Ed Reed of the Ravens back in the day. Amazing instincts.

 

[Dillon77]

Well said by both of you... USC just doesn't have an apparent offense other than watching JuJu try to do it all.

My biggest take: Sonia Citron once again goes under the radar as an impactful player. Her defense had JuJu at 6 of 19 from the floor until JuJu scored eight garbage-time points in the last three minutes.

You might remember Paige shot 5 of 17 vs. ND at Gampel last January, with Citron being the chief culprit in limiting Paige.

BTW, Citron made her way to the bench for at least two of those minutes.
(So why did Gottlieb risk getting her star injured when the game was done? Teach her team a lesson?)

Citron's defensive chops, deceptive foot speed and length at 6'1" make her another defensive weapon alongside the focused energy of Hidalgo.

 

[DallasDomer]

I'm confused. Did you think I was criticizing ND? Sorry to disappoint, but USC should be embarrassed by giving up those 17 steals. Sure, ND could have blown them out even worse, but this is early in the season. They'll be a handful for any team they meet all season. They should be #2 or #3, and USC should probably drop to #10 or below.

Can you clarify how this response relates to my post about Smith being out of the game?

I was trying to add to what Dillon said but maybe it was in your chain of posts, my mistake.

 

[TheFarmFan]

BTW, Citron made her way to the bench for at least two of those minutes.
(So why did Gottlieb risk getting her star injured when the game was done? Teach her team a lesson?)

Citron's defensive chops, deceptive foot speed and length at 6'1" make her another defensive weapon alongside the focused energy of Hidalgo.

Amen. I'm gleefully eyeing her as a possible pick still on the board when the Valks pick fifth in the spring...

 

[Cuango]

Well, I’d love to see Betts & Co. absolutely smoke South Carolina, but I‘m afraid it’s just wishful thnking! While UCLA has the horses to give Dawn’s team a run, I have very little faith in UCLA’s coach and think it is far more likely that Dawn will be the big difference in this game. I’ve got my fingers crossed, but I don’t think it’s very likely!

 

[Cuango]

Notre Dame is gonna be tough in South Bend! We’re gonna need an exceptional effort to win that game! I can hardly believe Miles is shooting threes at 47%! If she maintains that, they are going to be a real threat to win it all.

 

[Jumper33]

Juju stunk today.

Facing the same defender who made Paige look uncomfortable and unlike her normal dominant self last season.

I have to agree with some of the comments above, I’m not moved by Gottlieb’s in game coaching. Last season she designed the offense so heavily around Juju I feel like it was possibly to the detriment of some other players. Just not the style of ball I enjoy in general. This season I thought there might be a bit more balance.

 

[JellyBean]

I haven't heard that in the media. I've only seen this discussed on the BY General board.

Oh, it is out there. Print, blogs, and CBS Sports. ESPN. As the game as grown, there are more and more sports journalist out there trying to create a buzz. Their "Gotcha" piece.

 

[JellyBean]

Facing the same defender who made Paige look uncomfortable and unlike her normal dominant self last season.

I have to agree with some of the comments above, I’m not moved by Gottlieb’s in game coaching. Last season she designed the offense so heavily around Juju I feel like it was possibly to the detriment of some other players. Just not the style of ball I enjoy in general. This season I thought there might be a bit more balance.

I love Coach Gotlieb. She is a solid coach. Her track record at California speaks volumes about her coaching ability. This game, she was out coached. It happens from time to time. You learn from it and move on. Thankfully, it was an early season loss. 10 games down the road, if they are 10-0 during that stretch and firing on all cylinders, this loss will be nothing more than a wakeup call for USC.

 

[JellyBean]

Notre Dame is gonna be tough in South Bend! We’re gonna need an exceptional effort to win that game! I can hardly believe Miles is shooting threes at 47%! If she maintains that, they are going to be a real threat to win it all.

Yep. That is going to be an interesting matchup in a few weeks.

 

[Geew1992]

Watch much basketball?

More than most

 

[Dillon77]

Oh, it is out there. Print, blogs, and CBS Sports. ESPN. As the game as grown, there are more and more sports journalist out there trying to create a buzz. Their "Gotcha" piece.

@cancontent

With growing evidence (5 games and counting), I think some prominent members of the press are starting to recognize that Hidalgo and Miles not only can play together, but play very well together.

Chantal Jennings of the Athletic (and this was before the USC game):

"Miles and Hidalgo have still been pretty close to automatic together, bringing together a year of unexpected preparation as they begin to answer the questions that lingered after Hidalgo’s commitment. Any notion there wouldn’t be enough basketball to go around for these two didn’t consider what they could do for one another even when the ball wasn’t in their hands.

"With two alpha guards who have shared the spotlight and the ball, Notre Dame has the best (and yes, most dynamic) backcourt in America and it’s ready for the biggest stage so far come Saturday."

and
From ESPN's Alexa Philippou



Now, it's obviously early in the season and ND will have games against teams with other good backcourt pairs (trios, even) in Texas, TCU, UConn, etc. But the debate about whether these two can work together shouldn't be a factor anymore.

OK, time for South Carolina and UCLA!

 

[Bigboote]

It’s never a bad idea to have two point guards on the floor. Miles saw Hidalgo all of last season, and was probably able to do some drills with her by the end of the season. And no doubt they talked all season about tendencies, strategies, etc.

 

[Bone Dog]

But the debate about whether these two can work together shouldn't be a factor anymore.

This is just me engaging in a thought experiment. I watched the game a second time last night and it struck me that Hannah and Olivia are not exactly a well-oiled machine. They can play together — those concerns are clearly misplaced, and Olivia is clearly a great point guard.

But Hannah seems to be a unique individual on the court. Saying she plays well with others doesn’t quite catch her brand of mischief and mayhem. This is especially clear on defense. She roams the court as a sort of free operator terrorizing opponents. She’s quick enough to get back to whoever she’s left open more often than not. But she isn’t really tasked with precise switches or coverages. In fact, to require that of her might limit her usefulness.

On offense, I thought I saw something similar. Niele sets screens for her, and there are plays as well. But she often simply breaks down an opponent on her own. This works really well now because most teams are still figuring out their defensive schemes. USC made lots of mistakes and Hannah exploited them really well. Later, I expect the scout on her will make things harder and screens and plays will matter more.

My point, trivial as it is, amounts to little more than saying that Hannah mainly does her thing and the rest of the team knows to make room for that. Olivia and Hannah don’t get in each other’s way, and Olivia appears to understand Hannah well. They certainly don’t fight over the ball, if that’s what the pundits thought might happen. Olivia is too smart for that. It also helps that the two of them are already playing in midseason form and few other backcourts are that far along yet.

This isn’t to say that ND’s team defense didn’t break down occasionally. One example, Hannah got stuck isolated on TVO at the left elbow and she just bulled her way to the rim, keeping the smaller guard on her hip. Hannah was helpless, swatted at TVO’s arm a couple times to no avail. It probably should have been whistled for an and-one. In other words, Hannah needed help but none came. This is a vulnerability since she works best doubling on someone else’s defensive assignment, but can be exposed against bigger guards. I’m sure Niele will solve this problem before long.

I can imagine Hannah and Olivia playing one-on-one in the gym and though Olivia probably couldn’t stop Hannah, I doubt she could prevent Olivia from scoring either. Teams with a strong big guard might be able to exploit this… until, of course, their team defense closes this off. Texas would be an interesting challenge with Harmon and Booker, if they can force switches. On the other hand, I suspect SC would be an easier opponent for them.

 

[Dillon77]

It’s never a bad idea to have two point guards on the floor. Miles saw Hidalgo all of last season, and was probably able to do some drills with her by the end of the season. And no doubt they talked all season about tendencies, strategies, etc.

They did. Do you have access to The Athletic?
Chantal Jennings wrote an article describing just that.

How ‘dynamic’ duo of Olivia Miles and Hannah Hidalgo turned Notre Dame into ‘Point Guard U’

Notre Dame faces its most important test so far Saturday at USC. Its backcourt is ready.

www.nytimes.com