Which Final Four team was the best?

[BigErnMcCracken]

2004: Gordon, Brown, Anderson, Okafor, Boone​

Villanueva, Armstrong, Denham Brown, Ed Nelson (and since people have mentioned Dyson's injury, well Marcus Williams was on this roster too)

I'm thinking not many people realize or remember how deep this team was. The great equalizer being only 5 of them can play at one time

They were not nearly as dominant as 2024's team. You're underrating how dominant Donovan was by comparison.

They were very good and at their peak were pretty formidable but in my opinion there's 2024 and then all the other teams are making their case for second place.

 

[willie99]

It's OK, people can and do disagree

That's life

 

[WhereistheDove?]

If the question is which team wins if they all played each other, I think the answer is ‘24 and I’m not sure it’s particularly close. The shot quality of that team is just far superior to anyone else on the list. Some of that is players, some is coaching, and some is the era.

 

[SubbaBub]

Oak and BG were the 2nd and 3rd draft picks. When healthy they beat everyone including a loaded Duke team with Boozer, Reddick and Williams on it.

99 beat Battie, Langdon, Brand, and Maggette.

2024 was an all time team but they played in an era of deluded talent. Compared to these two they are boys among men. The strategy to have DC play his guy straight up (get beat) and deny everyone else would not have won either of those Duke teams.

AK gets abused on the boards by either Free or Boone and DC fouls out early in the 2nd half vs Oak. 24's best chance is one of style not talent by raining threes. They have no answer inside even with Clingan.

And Thebeet was a better defender than Clingan, also the #2 draft picks. He was as important to his team maybe more because 09 had less overall talent.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Oak and BG were the 2nd and 3rd draft picks. When healthy they beat everyone including a loaded Duke team with Boozer, Reddick and Williams on it.

99 beat Battie, Langdon, Brand, and Maggette.

2024 was an all time team but they played in an era of deluded talent. Compared to these two they are boys among men. The strategy to have DC play his guy straight up (get beat) and deny everyone else would not have won either of those Duke teams.

AK gets abused on the boards by either Free or Boone and DC fouls out early in the 2nd half vs Oak. 24's best chance is one of style not talent by raining threes. They have no answer inside even with Clingan.

And Thebeet was a better defender than Clingan, also the #2 draft picks. He was as important to his team maybe more because 09 had less overall talent.

You’re saying the talent is so “deluded” that Okafor would have been picked even higher than 2nd in ‘24? I think you have that pretty backwards. You think Hilton is still a lottery pick if he’s coming out of school these days?

 

[WhereistheDove?]

AK gets abused on the boards by either Free or Boone and DC fouls out early in the 2nd half vs Oak. 24's best chance is one of style not talent by raining threes. They have no answer inside even with Clingan.

I’m not sure asking Boone to chase Karaban off screens on the perimeter is a great plan and with the size advantage the ‘24 team has over ‘99, you can afford to have one guy get out-rebounded.

As far as style, that’s a huge factor. ‘24 would rain threes on these earlier teams and overall take much higher value shots. Can’t not factor that it, though I agree it’s what makes these discussions a bit difficult. Knowing what we know now, ‘24 is going to run a much better offense than ‘99 or ‘04.

 

[willie99]

Raining threes? You mean like Ben Gordan & Rashad Anderson

 

[superjohn]

You’re saying the talent is so “deluded” that Okafor would have been picked even higher than 2nd in ‘24? I think you have that pretty backwards. You think Hilton is still a lottery pick if he’s coming out of school these days?

Hilton would never be drafted now and if they could do a redraft back in that era he wouldn't have been drafted.

 

[SubbaBub]

You’re saying the talent is so “deluded” that Okafor would have been picked even higher than 2nd in ‘24? I think you have that pretty backwards. You think Hilton is still a lottery pick if he’s coming out of school these days?

This makes zero sense. Talent is no longer concentrated in top schools and leagues. You think Bulter, SDSU, FAU happen in 2004 or 2009? George Mason was earth shattering in 2006 (against a soft entitled UConn team). Now it's practically an annual event. Maybe NIL shoves no names off the stage, we'll see.

Hilton, who mentioned him? He was a bench player in 04. Gordon was the first guard off the board after Dwight Howard and Okafor. Centers aren't as valuable today which make the DC argument even weaker.

But this isn't about draft position. The older teams played better competition, period. The older teams were tougher and stronger. The newer teams shoot 3s better and from more people but they also don't dribble/drive, rebound or defend as well.

If you don't think Moore/Brown can handle Newton or Spencer or that Rash and KEA can score with them then you either didn't watch them play or you're just deluding yourself.

Rip should be in the HoF, he scored on people way better than Castle in college and the NBA. Free and Boone are mismatches for AK unless he's hitting from deep, which he doesn't always do. And just stop with the centers, Jake was way stronger and just as big as DC. He can play him straight up. Oak is 4inches shorter and might need a double from Boone/Armstrong to help. If 24 needs DC to score to win, then they aren't winning.

24 is relying on beating Rip, KEA, Anderson and Gordon on defense by screening at the 3pt line and making a good percentage. It's certainly possible for one game but just isn't the most likely outcome.

They were all dominating champs, all 6. They all blew through the tournament. 6 games in a row. It's a nice history problem to have, but 2004 had it all including a bench that beats the other 5 benches, 2023 being the closest.

What happens when Oak gets to go against Johnson for 15 minutes a game? How about Brown or KEA against Diarra? Boone, Freeman, Rip, CV vs Stewart or Ross or even AK?

2024 beat down who was in front of them. Nobody is matching a 30-0 run against a Big Ten Champ. Take nothing away from the only UConn back to back champs. If I gave points for playing as a team and completeness, they get the most but on the court 2004 wins, 99 would be fairly even and depend on who's hot but 2024 has no one even close to Rip.

 

[superjohn]

I remember '99 and the '04 teams well and love them, but I think the '24 team was something special. I look at those 2 matchups and its fun to try to figure the way they go. The funny thing is that I think the '99 Duke team loses by 15+ to the '24 team. Brand would have really struggled against DC and Langdon would have been locked up by Castle.

'24 v '99 Rip vs Castle - RIP's ability to use screens would have been tough for Castle, but he would have had Clingan who may be the best I've seen at showing and recovering which would have had an impact on RIP's midrange game
Who does Ricky guard and take out-either Spencer or Newton
El-Amin was in foul trouble against Avery and I think would have trouble with Newton's physicality or Spencer's size and old man's game
El-Amin on offense would struggle against Newton's size
Karaban's threat of shooting would pull Freeman from the hoop and allow for some offensive rebounds and though he would develop more offense later, he wasn't a real big offensive threat except for a few offensive rebounds
Jake's no threat on the offensive end allowing Clingan to eat up a lot of inside space like he did against most teams
If JC made the mistake of putting Khalid on Castle, then Castle uses his size and strength to his advantage (I love El-Amin, but it just wouldn't be a good matchup against the '24 team)

I give the '24 team the advantage

I think the '04 team vs '24 is the hardest to break down.

Okafor was improve offensively, but not a real outside threat and would have some trouble with DC. It's a fun matchup because they were both so well coached and fundamentally sound.
Boone vs Karaban- each guy has the edge on the offensive end. Boone would have to go out to the 3 point line limiting his help defense, but could be huge on the boards when his team has the ball
Gordon vs Castle would be great and is Big Ben to quick and craft with the ball or does Castle's strength and size give Gordon problems. Could be determine on the way the game is called. Spencer v Anderson is a wash. If one does have the advantage, I go with Cam with his ability to score inside the arc as well. Taliek is a great defender, but how does he do against Newton.

In the end, I think Newton is the difference. I think what style the refs allow could play a big part between the 2 teams. I think the difference it the All-American point guard in the end. I think it comes down to the last few possessions.

Now, they didn't make the final four, but I think the '94 team is a team that would give the '24 team a really tough time, but that's another discussion.

I love Rashad but that's not a wash, Cam was a lot better than him. Cam was basically the best offensive player in the country. He was 5th in the country in three point shooting percentage, he shot 91% ft's, 8th in assist to turnovers, 2nd in Kenpom offensive efficiency.

 

[SubbaBub]

I’m not sure asking Boone to chase Karaban off screens on the perimeter is a great plan and with the size advantage the ‘24 team has over ‘99, you can afford to have one guy get out-rebounded.

As far as style, that’s a huge factor. ‘24 would rain threes on these earlier teams and overall take much higher value shots. Can’t not factor that it, though I agree it’s what makes these discussions a bit difficult. Knowing what we know now, ‘24 is going to run a much better offense than ‘99 or ‘04.

AK is hot and cold. If he's hot it's a problem but if you but CV on him, not so much. Now ask AK to guard Kevin Freeman or Josh Boone.

Josh has to hope AK is missing there's and AK has to hope Josh misses layups. Both happened regularly. AK isn't driving on either, he's too slow. Oak and Jake block almost all of those. Castle and Cam can probably beat their guys to a spot, but we never saw that used a lot as the main offense so we can conclude it helps offset the other mismatches. They also lose most of Cam and Newtons rebounding as Free, Boone, Oak, and Jake aren't getting beat by guards on the boards.

 

[SubbaBub]

I love Rashad but that's not a wash, Cam was a lot better than him. Cam was basically the best offensive player in the country. He was 5th in the country in three point shooting percentage, he shot 91% ft's, 8th in assist to turnovers, 2nd in Kenpom offensive efficiency.

Cam/Rash is probably 24s best matchup as Rash isn'ta known defender. Can you run that enough to offset losing in the other 3-4 spots? Does Cam really outscored Rash by all that much in that match up? I don't think so.

Does Cam getting close enough against team not playing 4 out? He'd need to hit threes off screens. He can, they all can but that is their problem that's all they have against two elite front courts. These are not a one man show like Purdue or Illinois.

These are also great teams with guys who know their jobs, run by a HoF coach. They played when the BE was the BE and not some glorified CYO league.

If we are asking which team causes more unsolvable problems for the other, I stand by my assessment.

 

[superjohn]

This makes zero sense. Talent is no longer concentrated in top schools and leagues. You think Bulter, SDSU, FAU happen in 2004 or 2009? George Mason was earth shattering in 2006 (against a soft entitled UConn team). Now it's practically an annual event. Maybe NIL shoves no names off the stage, we'll see.

Hilton, who mentioned him? He was a bench player in 04. Gordon was the first guard off the board after Dwight Howard and Okafor. Centers aren't as valuable today which make the DC argument even weaker.

But this isn't about draft position. The older teams played better competition, period. The older teams were tougher and stronger. The newer teams shoot 3s better and from more people but they also don't dribble/drive, rebound or defend as well.

If you don't think Moore/Brown can handle Newton or Spencer or that Rash and KEA can score with them then you either didn't watch them play or you're just deluding yourself.

Rip should be in the HoF, he scored on people way better than Castle in college and the NBA. Free and Boone are mismatches for AK unless he's hitting from deep, which he doesn't always do. And just stop with the centers, Jake was way stronger and just as big as DC. He can play him straight up. Oak is 4inches shorter and might need a double from Boone/Armstrong to help. If 24 needs DC to score to win, then they aren't winning.

24 is relying on beating Rip, KEA, Anderson and Gordon on defense by screening at the 3pt line and making a good percentage. It's certainly possible for one game but just isn't the most likely outcome.

They were all dominating champs, all 6. They all blew through the tournament. 6 games in a row. It's a nice history problem to have, but 2004 had it all including a bench that beats the other 5 benches, 2023 being the closest.

What happens when Oak gets to go against Johnson for 15 minutes a game? How about Brown or KEA against Diarra? Boone, Freeman, Rip, CV vs Stewart or Ross or even AK?

2024 beat down who was in front of them. Nobody is matching a 30-0 run against a Big Ten Champ. Take nothing away from the only UConn back to back champs. If I gave points for playing as a team and completeness, they get the most but on the court 2004 wins, 99 would be fairly even and depend on who's hot but 2024 has no one even close to Rip.

This makes no sense, you might have had an argument before the transfer portal/immediate transfers playing/5th and 6th year Covid players etc.

Our starting backcourt in 2024 was two 5th year seniors, they were the best backcourt in the country by far. The 2024 team's starting 5 and top 8 both had more college basketball experience than 2004.

I don't know why you're asking what happens when Taliek goes against Diarra the backup point guard. The question should be what happens with Taliek against the starter Newton. Tristen is a much better player than Taliek. 2004 didn't even have a backup point guard once Marcus Williams was ruled ineligible second semester.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

AK is hot and cold. If he's hot it's a problem but if you but CV on him, not so much. Now ask AK to guard Kevin Freeman or Josh Boone.

Josh has to hope AK is missing there's and AK has to hope Josh misses layups. Both happened regularly. AK isn't driving on either, he's too slow. Oak and Jake block almost all of those. Castle and Cam can probably beat their guys to a spot, but we never saw that used a lot as the main offense so we can conclude it helps offset the other mismatches. They also lose most of Cam and Newtons rebounding as Free, Boone, Oak, and Jake aren't getting beat by guards on the boards.

I think you’re assuming that ‘99/‘04 are going to play their game defensively, but they’re not. They’re going to have to adjust to the spacing and actions of ‘24 and it would be a huge difference. It’s not a knock on them, it’s just a vastly different style than we ever saw them have to play against.

And the idea that ‘24 loses the benefits of guards rebounding is a bit silly to me. Okafor and Jake are still going to be having to deal with Clingan and will be giving up size. They’re not going to have free rein to grab any board they want. ‘99 especially would have a challenge with the guards. That back court went 5’10, 6’2 and would have to deal with 6’5, 6’4.

 

[Scottzer]

I’m not sure asking Boone to chase Karaban off screens on the perimeter is a great plan and with the size advantage the ‘24 team has over ‘99, you can afford to have one guy get out-rebounded.

As far as style, that’s a huge factor. ‘24 would rain threes on these earlier teams and overall take much higher value shots. Can’t not factor that it, though I agree it’s what makes these discussions a bit difficult. Knowing what we know now, ‘24 is going to run a much better offense than ‘99 or ‘04.

With you on this. Maybe play Charlie on AK and run Boone as Emeka’s backup?

Do we go with the 35 second shot clock and more physicality allowed, or a 30 second clock and current officiating?

24 would benefit from the extra time, but, I think they would find it harder to run their sets in more physical 04 era.

A lot of you guys would watch the open practices - I never have. How did Donovan match up with Adama in practice? I felt like Emeka had similar footwork to Adama, but a ton more athleticism. Who gets in foul trouble first, DC or EO? In my mind, that is what the game between the two would come down to.

The funny thing to me is that Hutley’s teams look a bit more like coach K teams. And yes, they were great. But, Calhoun figured them out in time.

I’m not dying on a hill with one side or the other between those two teams. But, I just don’t see it clearly one way or the other.

 

[3rdbass]

Stef Castle is a great example of a one-and-done-and-natty and becoming NBA ROY is a the best selling job we could do for a SG or wing. No one can touch us.

Or PG. Steph is all those positions embodied in one basketball player.

 

[metsfan2323]

I love Rashad but that's not a wash, Cam was a lot better than him. Cam was basically the best offensive player in the country. He was 5th in the country in three point shooting percentage, he shot 91% ft's, 8th in assist to turnovers, 2nd in Kenpom offensive efficiency.

Yup, Newton was a legit first team All American and he was also the 3rd best player on last year's team IMO and our 4th best player just won Rookie of the Year. The 2024 team was also the talk of the basketball world with everyone trying to figure out how to copy our offense. Two of our three losses were because of injuries. The 2024 team stands alone, Best Ever.

 

[Spaceman213J]

I love Rashad but that's not a wash, Cam was a lot better than him. Cam was basically the best offensive player in the country. He was 5th in the country in three point shooting percentage, he shot 91% ft's, 8th in assist to turnovers, 2nd in Kenpom offensive efficiency.

I actually agree. I was trying to a little diplomatic and I think one of the guys that constantly gets a little forgotten on this board by some, not all, but by some is Tristan Newton. He showed out in both title games.
I also don't get why some thing Okafor or especially Thabeet would eat Clingan up. Not that you are arguing this, but I don't feel like putting up to different posts right now. Edey got his points, but he had to work and was gassed and worn down. Thabeet could get pushed around by a big with size like Blair. I'm not saying DC is going on an offensive explosion, but Thabeet wouldn't do much against DC either.

 

[Dibbie]

Voted ‘04. I understand the ‘24 team thought, but surprised by the margin. Maybe a little recency bias

 

[SubbaBub]

DC would foul out against Oak fairly quickly evenas he wouldbe effective defending him.. Thabeet would neutralize DC whose scoring is way more important to his team than Thabeets.

As for Newton, the earlier champs successfully defended better backcourts than 24.

Once again, this is not to say 24 isn't an all time team. We're debating Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle here.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

DC would foul out against Oak fairly quickly evenas he wouldbe effective defending him.. Thabeet would neutralize DC whose scoring is way more important to his team than Thabeets.

You cannot possibly be calling other people delusional while firing off takes like this. Okafar was a 6-9 post player who didn't leave the paint. And I loved him but it's not like he had Adama's footwork or post moves. What are we even talking about here?

By the way Thabeet averaged marginally more ppg in '09 than Clingan did in '24. I can't even believe we're doing this exercise. Even at 7 ppg as a freshman Clingan was as impactful as any big we've ever had.

 

[superjohn]

You cannot possibly be calling other people delusional while firing off takes like this. Okafar was a 6-9 post player who didn't leave the paint. And I loved him but it's not like he had Adama's footwork or post moves. What are we even talking about here?

By the way Thabeet averaged marginally more ppg in '09 than Clingan did in '24. I can't even believe we're doing this exercise. Even at 7 ppg as a freshman Clingan was as impactful as any big we've ever had.

Okafor was awesome and scored a lot but he was a bit mechanical. As you say he didn't leave the paint. He was good at making himself available and scored on a little hook shot, put backs, and off of feeds from Taliek and big to big interior passing. The size difference is enormous.

I also don't get why he thinks Clingan's scoring was way more important to his team than Thabeet's was.

 

[CTHSHoops]

i think the 99 team is the most underrated team and beat a Duke that is viewed as one of college basketballs greatest team ever. Ill stick with the 99 team personally.

The 99 was special for me, particularly since it was the first and I was able to attend. The team's only 2 losses were at home to Syracuse and Miami when they had injuries. The win at Stanford was special. The 99 Duke was the highest rated Kenpom.com team.

 

[willie99]

You cannot possibly be calling other people delusional while firing off takes like this. Okafar was a 6-9 post player who didn't leave the paint. And I loved him but it's not like he had Adama's footwork or post moves. What are we even talking about here?

By the way Thabeet averaged marginally more ppg in '09 than Clingan did in '24. I can't even believe we're doing this exercise. Even at 7 ppg as a freshman Clingan was as impactful as any big we've ever had.

Are you adversely comparing Meka to Sanogo?

Now that's mind-blowin. I wish Sanogo was the 2nd pick in the NBA draft, and I hope he makes 10's of millions of dollars too. My guess is he wishes for the same

Adama, I love you man. You deserve a chance and I think your day will come

Meka, thank you for everything and invest your money wisely

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Are you adversely comparing Meka to Sanogo?

Now that's mind-blowin. I wish Sanogo was the 2nd pick in the NBA draft, and I hope he makes 10's of millions of dollars too. My guess is he wishes for the same

Adama, I love you man. You deserve a chance and I think your day will come

Meka, thank you for everything and invest your money wisely

Hilton Armstrong was a lottery pick. It's amazing to me you guys think this "this guy was drafted # __ 20 years ago" arguments enhance your credibility. Where would Okafor have been drafted in Adama's draft. Not second. God this is goofy.

Also, Sanogo has better post moves than Okafor, which is the point I was making. And it's not really debatable. Unfortunately for him he played in an era where undersized, earth-bound post players aren't especially valuable in the NBA.

This stuff isn't rocket surgery, guys.