Which Final Four team was the best?

[SubbaBub]

Not for nothing, but I always viewed RM as the SG and KEA as the PG.

Also, JD didn't actually play in the final four, so I would ding them for that also, CA started IIRC if you are ranking players that actually played in the FF.

Can't see CS that low amongst the SGs, or how 2023 AK was better than 2024 AK.

In no world is Ricky a Shooting Guard.

Question was FF teams. JD was hurt that matters.

As for the 2024/2004/1999 question, arguments can be made for all being the best but if they all played. No one is beating Emeka, Gordon and Boone with Anderson and Brown supporting cast.

Rip was undefendable by guys way better at defending than any of our other teams could throw at him including freshman Castle. The 24 team doesn't rebound the same against either 99 or 04 with Free and Boone. And Voskhul could definitely defend Clingan as he defended better centers.

All three are good, but if you line up all 6 champs 2004 stands out with 99 slightly ahead of 24 but still close behind. Both earlier teams were also very dominant during the regular season with multiple weeks at #1. 2004 only really lost when Okafor was hurt.

 

[Waquoit]

The 2006 team was loaded

But zero team chemistry.

 

[B1GEast]

But zero team chemistry.

Not so sure. They were the cardiac kids in the tournament. I remember Anderson hitting several clutch threes to extend several games.

That 06 team broke my heart. So did the 94 team. I still think about those missed free throws.

I don't think the 06 team lacked chemistry, I think they just never understood how good they were. They often let less talented teams stay with them. They lacked a killer instinct.

 

[Waquoit]

i mean except for getting punked by MSU's frontcourt. I didn't have much hope against UNC....though I think we could have put up a better fight than MSU did, especially if Dyson were healthy.

They didn't get punked. That big goof had the game of his life al la Toby Bailey and Sparty was playing a home game in front of 70,000. That team had trouble scoring even with Dyson. They hung tough but just didn't get much traction.

 

[Waquoit]

Not so sure. They were the cardiac kids in the tournament.

Tell me about it. They showed pluck and grit in that great comeback against Albany.

 

[SubbaBub]

Not so sure. They were the cardiac kids in the tournament. I remember Anderson hitting several clutch threes to extend several games.

That 06 team broke my heart. So did the 94 team. I still think about those missed free throws.

I don't think the 06 team lacked chemistry, I think they just never understood how good they were. They often let less talented teams stay with them. They lacked a killer instinct.

They should have been winning by 15 every game. That was the problem.

The 94-96 teams were just as good. Only shows how much tougher the competition was back then.

 

[DRBackup]

• 1999: Moore, El-Amin, Hamilton, Freeman, Voskuhl
• 2004: Gordon, Brown, Anderson, Boone, Okafor
• 2009: Price, Dyson, Robinson, Adrien, Thabeet
• 2011: Walker, Lamb, Smith, Olander, Oriakhi
• 2014: Bazz, Boatright, Giffey, Daniels, Brimah (Sorry Phil)
• 2023: Newton, Hawkins, Jackson, Karaban, Sanogo
• 2024: Newton, Spencer, Castle, Karaban, Clingan

PG: 2011 (KW), 2014 (SN), 2024 (TN), 2009 (AP) ,2023 (TN), 1999 (RM), 2004 (TB)
SG: 2004 (BG), 2009 (JD), 2014 (RB), 1999 (KA), 2011 (JL), 2024 (CS), 2023 (JH)
SF: 1999 (RH), 2024 (SC), 2023 (AJ), 2004 (RA), 2014 (NG), 2009 (SR), 2011 (RS)
PF: 1999 (Kelis Fisher), 2004 (JB), 2009 (JA), 2023 (AK), 2024 (AK), 2014 (DD), 2011 (TO)
C: 2004 (EO), 2009 (HT), 2024 (DC), 2014 (AB), 2023 (AS), 1999 (JV), 2011 (AO)

Lots of brutal position battles but alas, we need to draw fine lines.

Using a 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 scoring system.

1999: 2, 4, 7, 7, 2 = 22
2004: 1, 7, 4, 6, 7 = 25
2009: 4, 6, 2, 5, 6 = 23 (-20 for not winning, I make the rules) = 3
2011: 7, 3, 1, 1, 1 = 13 (Kemba is a god)
2014: 6, 5, 3, 2, 4 = 20
2023: 3, 1, 5, 4, 3 = 16
2024: 5, 2, 6, 3, 5 = 21

Final ranking:
1. 2004
2. 1999
3, 2024
4. 2014
5. 2023
6. 2011
7. 2009

Imagine putting Thabeet above Clingan. SMH. And putting Cam Spencer second from the bottom at SG is nuts. And I'd say KEA was the PG in 99 and Moore was the SG.

 

[DRBackup]

I love them all, but I think DC and SJ get manhandled down low by Meka, Josh, Hilton and Chaz

Possibly one of the craziest things I've ever read on this forum.

 

[DRBackup]

That 09 team gets no love. They were killers.

They were. I always go back to that team's peak - at #1 ranked Louisville won by 17

 

[DRBackup]

In no world is Ricky a Shooting Guard.

Neither is KEA. And KEA was more point guard than Ricky by that time.

 

[superjohn]

In no world is Ricky a Shooting Guard.

Question was FF teams. JD was hurt that matters.

As for the 2024/2004/1999 question, arguments can be made for all being the best but if they all played. No one is beating Emeka, Gordon and Boone with Anderson and Brown supporting cast.

Rip was undefendable by guys way better at defending than any of our other teams could throw at him including freshman Castle. The 24 team doesn't rebound the same against either 99 or 04 with Free and Boone. And Voskhul could definitely defend Clingan as he defended better centers.

All three are good, but if you line up all 6 champs 2004 stands out with 99 slightly ahead of 24 but still close behind. Both earlier teams were also very dominant during the regular season with multiple weeks at #1. 2004 only really lost when Okafor was hurt.

'24 had 3 top line guards who could handle, drive, pass, and shoot it. '04 had one in Gordon. Clingan makes Okafor and Boone look like small children. He would take away things at the rim and allow everyone else to guard the perimeter.

2004 lost games when Okafor was healthy.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

I deleted a couple incredulous responses to that this morning.

Possibly one of the craziest things I've ever read on this forum.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

i think the 99 team is the most underrated team and beat a Duke that is viewed as one of college basketballs greatest team ever. Ill stick with the 99 team personally.

The 99 team had quite a bit of talent (I'll go to my grave believing we win that matchup with Duke seven times out of ten, possibly eight out of ten).

That team also had a resolve that I have not seen anywhere since then. If the '06 squad had close to that resolve they would have gone undefeated, destroying everyone in their path.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

2024 was the most complete team, and best at sharing the hall. I don’t quite know how to compare them vs ‘99 and ‘04 when defense was a little more physical.

Talent - top to bottom, I probably still go with 04. Villanueva and Armstrong on the bench is insane.

The biggest question in my mind is which teams would have beaten 99 Duke. I was youthfully optimistic heading into that game, not fully appreciating how good that team was. Both 04 and 24 would have the talent to pull it off, but I wouldn’t expect any of our other title teams to get it done.

I am crazy to suggest that '24 would have been easily as favored over '99 Duke as that Duke team was over UConn?

 

[superjohn]

The 99 team had quite a bit of talent (I'll go to my grave believing we win that matchup with Duke seven times out of ten, possibly eight out of ten).

That team also had a resolve that I have not seen anywhere since then. If the '06 squad had close to that resolve they would have gone undefeated, destroying everyone in their path.

I think that 2005-2006 team is a little overrated by people on this board.

They weren't playing up to their talent by Big East tournament time which was disappointing but the team was flawed and outside of Rudy none of the talent panned out in the NBA.

They had a great front court but they were a guard or two short. Marcus Williams was awesome but Austrie was just serviceable as a freshman and should've been pretty far down the bench instead of starting most games. Florida was a guard or two short that season as well but they had a better front court than UConn. Nova was much better than both of them at guard but was seriously shorthanded in the front court.

 

[willie99]

Possibly one of the craziest things I've ever read on this forum.

You must be a young, good for you.

Imagine thinking 3 tall and talented lottery picks and a 4th 7 footer also drafted in the first round couldn't handle DC and SJ?

OK, we all can have our own opinion

 

[willie99]

2004: Gordon, Brown, Anderson, Okafor, Boone​

Villanueva, Armstrong, Denham Brown, Ed Nelson (and since people have mentioned Dyson's injury, well Marcus Williams was on this roster too)

I'm thinking not many people realize or remember how deep this team was. The great equalizer being only 5 of them can play at one time

 

[Scottzer]

I am crazy to suggest that '24 would have been easily as favored over '99 Duke as that Duke team was over UConn?

I wouldn’t call you crazy if you said they would win by 9 plus points. But, the spread versus that Duke team would have been far tighter if we were only favored by 6 vs Purdue.

 

[Spaceman213J]

I remember '99 and the '04 teams well and love them, but I think the '24 team was something special. I look at those 2 matchups and its fun to try to figure the way they go. The funny thing is that I think the '99 Duke team loses by 15+ to the '24 team. Brand would have really struggled against DC and Langdon would have been locked up by Castle.

'24 v '99 Rip vs Castle - RIP's ability to use screens would have been tough for Castle, but he would have had Clingan who may be the best I've seen at showing and recovering which would have had an impact on RIP's midrange game
Who does Ricky guard and take out-either Spencer or Newton
El-Amin was in foul trouble against Avery and I think would have trouble with Newton's physicality or Spencer's size and old man's game
El-Amin on offense would struggle against Newton's size
Karaban's threat of shooting would pull Freeman from the hoop and allow for some offensive rebounds and though he would develop more offense later, he wasn't a real big offensive threat except for a few offensive rebounds
Jake's no threat on the offensive end allowing Clingan to eat up a lot of inside space like he did against most teams
If JC made the mistake of putting Khalid on Castle, then Castle uses his size and strength to his advantage (I love El-Amin, but it just wouldn't be a good matchup against the '24 team)

I give the '24 team the advantage

I think the '04 team vs '24 is the hardest to break down.

Okafor was improve offensively, but not a real outside threat and would have some trouble with DC. It's a fun matchup because they were both so well coached and fundamentally sound.
Boone vs Karaban- each guy has the edge on the offensive end. Boone would have to go out to the 3 point line limiting his help defense, but could be huge on the boards when his team has the ball
Gordon vs Castle would be great and is Big Ben to quick and craft with the ball or does Castle's strength and size give Gordon problems. Could be determine on the way the game is called. Spencer v Anderson is a wash. If one does have the advantage, I go with Cam with his ability to score inside the arc as well. Taliek is a great defender, but how does he do against Newton.

In the end, I think Newton is the difference. I think what style the refs allow could play a big part between the 2 teams. I think the difference it the All-American point guard in the end. I think it comes down to the last few possessions.

Now, they didn't make the final four, but I think the '94 team is a team that would give the '24 team a really tough time, but that's another discussion.

 

[Hoophound]

I remember '99 and the '04 teams well and love them, but I think the '24 team was something special. I look at those 2 matchups and its fun to try to figure the way they go. The funny thing is that I think the '99 Duke team loses by 15+ to the '24 team. Brand would have really struggled against DC and Langdon would have been locked up by Castle.

'24 v '99 Rip vs Castle - RIP's ability to use screens would have been tough for Castle, but he would have had Clingan who may be the best I've seen at showing and recovering which would have had an impact on RIP's midrange game
Who does Ricky guard and take out-either Spencer or Newton
El-Amin was in foul trouble against Avery and I think would have trouble with Newton's physicality or Spencer's size and old man's game
El-Amin on offense would struggle against Newton's size
Karaban's threat of shooting would pull Freeman from the hoop and allow for some offensive rebounds and though he would develop more offense later, he wasn't a real big offensive threat except for a few offensive rebounds
Jake's no threat on the offensive end allowing Clingan to eat up a lot of inside space like he did against most teams
If JC made the mistake of putting Khalid on Castle, then Castle uses his size and strength to his advantage (I love El-Amin, but it just wouldn't be a good matchup against the '24 team)

I give the '24 team the advantage

I think the '04 team vs '24 is the hardest to break down.

Okafor was improve offensively, but not a real outside threat and would have some trouble with DC. It's a fun matchup because they were both so well coached and fundamentally sound.
Boone vs Karaban- each guy has the edge on the offensive end. Boone would have to go out to the 3 point line limiting his help defense, but could be huge on the boards when his team has the ball
Gordon vs Castle would be great and is Big Ben to quick and craft with the ball or does Castle's strength and size give Gordon problems. Could be determine on the way the game is called. Spencer v Anderson is a wash. If one does have the advantage, I go with Cam with his ability to score inside the arc as well. Taliek is a great defender, but how does he do against Newton.

In the end, I think Newton is the difference. I think what style the refs allow could play a big part between the 2 teams. I think the difference it the All-American point guard in the end. I think it comes down to the last few possessions.

Now, they didn't make the final four, but I think the '94 team is a team that would give the '24 team a really tough time, but that's another discussion.

Fair. However, I disagree with El Amin struggling against anyone. He seemed to be able to shoot, score and pass against anyone. He was a special talent. Keep in mind, he had a few cups of coffee in the NBA and probably should have stuck. He was a very good player. His career overseas was stellar.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

2004: Gordon, Brown, Anderson, Okafor, Boone​

Villanueva, Armstrong, Denham Brown, Ed Nelson (and since people have mentioned Dyson's injury, well Marcus Williams was on this roster too)

I'm thinking not many people realize or remember how deep this team was. The great equalizer being only 5 of them can play at one time

They were not nearly as dominant as 2024's team. You're underrating how dominant Donovan was by comparison.

They were very good and at their peak were pretty formidable but in my opinion there's 2024 and then all the other teams are making their case for second place.

 

[willie99]

It's OK, people can and do disagree

That's life

 

[WhereistheDove?]

If the question is which team wins if they all played each other, I think the answer is ‘24 and I’m not sure it’s particularly close. The shot quality of that team is just far superior to anyone else on the list. Some of that is players, some is coaching, and some is the era.

 

[SubbaBub]

Oak and BG were the 2nd and 3rd draft picks. When healthy they beat everyone including a loaded Duke team with Boozer, Reddick and Williams on it.

99 beat Battie, Langdon, Brand, and Maggette.

2024 was an all time team but they played in an era of deluded talent. Compared to these two they are boys among men. The strategy to have DC play his guy straight up (get beat) and deny everyone else would not have won either of those Duke teams.

AK gets abused on the boards by either Free or Boone and DC fouls out early in the 2nd half vs Oak. 24's best chance is one of style not talent by raining threes. They have no answer inside even with Clingan.

And Thebeet was a better defender than Clingan, also the #2 draft picks. He was as important to his team maybe more because 09 had less overall talent.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Oak and BG were the 2nd and 3rd draft picks. When healthy they beat everyone including a loaded Duke team with Boozer, Reddick and Williams on it.

99 beat Battie, Langdon, Brand, and Maggette.

2024 was an all time team but they played in an era of deluded talent. Compared to these two they are boys among men. The strategy to have DC play his guy straight up (get beat) and deny everyone else would not have won either of those Duke teams.

AK gets abused on the boards by either Free or Boone and DC fouls out early in the 2nd half vs Oak. 24's best chance is one of style not talent by raining threes. They have no answer inside even with Clingan.

And Thebeet was a better defender than Clingan, also the #2 draft picks. He was as important to his team maybe more because 09 had less overall talent.

You’re saying the talent is so “deluded” that Okafor would have been picked even higher than 2nd in ‘24? I think you have that pretty backwards. You think Hilton is still a lottery pick if he’s coming out of school these days?

 

[WhereistheDove?]

AK gets abused on the boards by either Free or Boone and DC fouls out early in the 2nd half vs Oak. 24's best chance is one of style not talent by raining threes. They have no answer inside even with Clingan.

I’m not sure asking Boone to chase Karaban off screens on the perimeter is a great plan and with the size advantage the ‘24 team has over ‘99, you can afford to have one guy get out-rebounded.

As far as style, that’s a huge factor. ‘24 would rain threes on these earlier teams and overall take much higher value shots. Can’t not factor that it, though I agree it’s what makes these discussions a bit difficult. Knowing what we know now, ‘24 is going to run a much better offense than ‘99 or ‘04.

 

[willie99]

Raining threes? You mean like Ben Gordan & Rashad Anderson

 

[superjohn]

You’re saying the talent is so “deluded” that Okafor would have been picked even higher than 2nd in ‘24? I think you have that pretty backwards. You think Hilton is still a lottery pick if he’s coming out of school these days?

Hilton would never be drafted now and if they could do a redraft back in that era he wouldn't have been drafted.

 

[SubbaBub]

You’re saying the talent is so “deluded” that Okafor would have been picked even higher than 2nd in ‘24? I think you have that pretty backwards. You think Hilton is still a lottery pick if he’s coming out of school these days?

This makes zero sense. Talent is no longer concentrated in top schools and leagues. You think Bulter, SDSU, FAU happen in 2004 or 2009? George Mason was earth shattering in 2006 (against a soft entitled UConn team). Now it's practically an annual event. Maybe NIL shoves no names off the stage, we'll see.

Hilton, who mentioned him? He was a bench player in 04. Gordon was the first guard off the board after Dwight Howard and Okafor. Centers aren't as valuable today which make the DC argument even weaker.

But this isn't about draft position. The older teams played better competition, period. The older teams were tougher and stronger. The newer teams shoot 3s better and from more people but they also don't dribble/drive, rebound or defend as well.

If you don't think Moore/Brown can handle Newton or Spencer or that Rash and KEA can score with them then you either didn't watch them play or you're just deluding yourself.

Rip should be in the HoF, he scored on people way better than Castle in college and the NBA. Free and Boone are mismatches for AK unless he's hitting from deep, which he doesn't always do. And just stop with the centers, Jake was way stronger and just as big as DC. He can play him straight up. Oak is 4inches shorter and might need a double from Boone/Armstrong to help. If 24 needs DC to score to win, then they aren't winning.

24 is relying on beating Rip, KEA, Anderson and Gordon on defense by screening at the 3pt line and making a good percentage. It's certainly possible for one game but just isn't the most likely outcome.

They were all dominating champs, all 6. They all blew through the tournament. 6 games in a row. It's a nice history problem to have, but 2004 had it all including a bench that beats the other 5 benches, 2023 being the closest.

What happens when Oak gets to go against Johnson for 15 minutes a game? How about Brown or KEA against Diarra? Boone, Freeman, Rip, CV vs Stewart or Ross or even AK?

2024 beat down who was in front of them. Nobody is matching a 30-0 run against a Big Ten Champ. Take nothing away from the only UConn back to back champs. If I gave points for playing as a team and completeness, they get the most but on the court 2004 wins, 99 would be fairly even and depend on who's hot but 2024 has no one even close to Rip.

 

[superjohn]

I remember '99 and the '04 teams well and love them, but I think the '24 team was something special. I look at those 2 matchups and its fun to try to figure the way they go. The funny thing is that I think the '99 Duke team loses by 15+ to the '24 team. Brand would have really struggled against DC and Langdon would have been locked up by Castle.

'24 v '99 Rip vs Castle - RIP's ability to use screens would have been tough for Castle, but he would have had Clingan who may be the best I've seen at showing and recovering which would have had an impact on RIP's midrange game
Who does Ricky guard and take out-either Spencer or Newton
El-Amin was in foul trouble against Avery and I think would have trouble with Newton's physicality or Spencer's size and old man's game
El-Amin on offense would struggle against Newton's size
Karaban's threat of shooting would pull Freeman from the hoop and allow for some offensive rebounds and though he would develop more offense later, he wasn't a real big offensive threat except for a few offensive rebounds
Jake's no threat on the offensive end allowing Clingan to eat up a lot of inside space like he did against most teams
If JC made the mistake of putting Khalid on Castle, then Castle uses his size and strength to his advantage (I love El-Amin, but it just wouldn't be a good matchup against the '24 team)

I give the '24 team the advantage

I think the '04 team vs '24 is the hardest to break down.

Okafor was improve offensively, but not a real outside threat and would have some trouble with DC. It's a fun matchup because they were both so well coached and fundamentally sound.
Boone vs Karaban- each guy has the edge on the offensive end. Boone would have to go out to the 3 point line limiting his help defense, but could be huge on the boards when his team has the ball
Gordon vs Castle would be great and is Big Ben to quick and craft with the ball or does Castle's strength and size give Gordon problems. Could be determine on the way the game is called. Spencer v Anderson is a wash. If one does have the advantage, I go with Cam with his ability to score inside the arc as well. Taliek is a great defender, but how does he do against Newton.

In the end, I think Newton is the difference. I think what style the refs allow could play a big part between the 2 teams. I think the difference it the All-American point guard in the end. I think it comes down to the last few possessions.

Now, they didn't make the final four, but I think the '94 team is a team that would give the '24 team a really tough time, but that's another discussion.

I love Rashad but that's not a wash, Cam was a lot better than him. Cam was basically the best offensive player in the country. He was 5th in the country in three point shooting percentage, he shot 91% ft's, 8th in assist to turnovers, 2nd in Kenpom offensive efficiency.