What to do about offensive flops

[brownale]

Just my $.02. Players will use whatever the rules allow in their arsenal.

In the past, when UCONN would especially play overly physical teams like ECU or UCF, UCONN would get beaten up the entire game because from the other teams' perspective, "refs won't call every foul".

Really? Why not? get 3 players with 3 fouls in Q1, and I suspect the overly physical play will instantly stop. It is really on schools who teach "play hard but don't foul" to continuously call it out to the refs, the conference, etc. Teams like UCONN who play "cleaner" ball, but have more talent, are usually the teams who are impacted by the "foul on very possession" style of play.

Other teams, like ND, who are FAMOUS for phantom flopping (Duke men as well. Sorry Traid and Cam), but I think that in the future, more use of the monitor to look at phantom flopping. At first it will be a PITA for time stoppage, but once they start penalizing teams for the faking, they will eventually stop. All IMHO of course.

New NCAA rule: looking mean at an offensive player is now a two shot technical foul; if you also breath heavy near them it is an automatic ejection!!!

 

[Bigboote]

I do not know what the correct answer to this question. However, I have see very clearly that a right handed person dribbling the ball or for that matter a left handed person use the alternate arm to push the defender away and the defender going to the floor. I have seen the defender called for a foul when I believe the offensive player should be called for that foul for using that arm to push the defender away. What is the correct answer?

One of Lou's fouls yesterday was for contact between her midriff and the arm the offensive player was pushing off with. My wife probably thought I'd injured myself I was shouting so loud.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

I believe Nika has, in past seasons, been called for a foul multiple (and I do mean multiple) times when she has put her hand on the back of a player dribbling the ball. IMO, that should never be a foul.

It depends on how you do it and the impact on the player. If you impede movement or displace, IMO that's a foul. I think most defenders do it and don't get whistled, but some displace in the eyes of the ref.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

I believe you are allowed to put a hand on the player dribbling the ball. But if you switch hands or actually hinder the players movement then it is a foul.

I know you can arm bar a player with one hand if they are posting with their back to the basket. Once they face up to the basket, you have to take your arm off.

 

[Monte]

We can stop watching. Which is where I'm kind of getting with basketball. Every 5 seconds someone's on the floor and play is stopped. Maybe there needs to be a new rule: you hit the deck more than twice you're gone for your own and others safety.

I was just thinking the same way: I have never seen so many players falling on the floor. When this season ends, the NCAA, and the referees should deal with this. IF a player falls on the floor, and a foul is NOT called on the opposition player, then the foul should be called on the player on the floor! I am so tired of seeing players on the floor, trainers running out to help, and referees taking a look at the replays. (All of this elongating the game). If more fouls were called, and IF more players fouled out of games, THIS WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE!
Years ago, Basketball was NOT a contact sport, but it is now.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

Full Disclosure: I would never flop for fear of not being able to get back up. Not a good look.

 

[Beemer]

The NHL has changed its rules because flopping has become an epidemic- referees can call a 2 minute minor for embellishment if a player blatantly flops or otherwise exaggerates contact (the head/neck snap back is a favorite move). Unfortunately it isn't called enough IMO.

I think a similar rule should be implemented for WCBB.

 

[Dezoworld]

The referees don't know how to handle the offensive flop. I have seen Arkansas guards use it last year and now the FSU guards are using it as one their primary scoring options. Drive to the hoop and throw yourself at the defensive player and throw the ball towards the hoop and then fall downfall down.
1. This is best used against bigs by little guards. The big stands her ground with their hands up and the offensive player knows their shot with probably be blocked but throws themselves at the big and they will get to the foul line for two shots. This is 50 to 75 % of Watson's offensive arsenal. Lots of points from the line.
2. Lou did a fantastic job on Watson by falling backwards as Watson would throw herself at her. She was rewarded by getting two charges on her.
3. The refs can see the contact being created by the offensive player when the defensive player falls but not when the bigs stand straight up with their hands up. They are assuming when the player falls down it must be the defenders fault.

Did anyone else se this and is this a tendency in WBB. I call it Flop and shoot. I think the refs must be shown this and learn to determine who creates the contact is the fouler.

As a player you are taught to throw yourself into the defender not only to draw fouls but not get blocked. Most of the times it should be no calls play on but the refs are the ones with the whistles.

 

[hoophuskee]

The referees don't know how to handle the offensive flop. I have seen Arkansas guards use it last year and now the FSU guards are using it as one their primary scoring options. Drive to the hoop and throw yourself at the defensive player and throw the ball towards the hoop and then fall downfall down.
1. This is best used against bigs by little guards. The big stands her ground with their hands up and the offensive player knows their shot with probably be blocked but throws themselves at the big and they will get to the foul line for two shots. This is 50 to 75 % of Watson's offensive arsenal. Lots of points from the line.
2. Lou did a fantastic job on Watson by falling backwards as Watson would throw herself at her. She was rewarded by getting two charges on her.
3. The refs can see the contact being created by the offensive player when the defensive player falls but not when the bigs stand straight up with their hands up. They are assuming when the player falls down it must be the defenders fault.

Did anyone else se this and is this a tendency in WBB. I call it Flop and shoot. I think the refs must be shown this and learn to determine who creates the contact is the fouler.

I'm with you 100% on this. Though I'm not sure it is faking half the time in that they (especially the very small but quick gaurds) fly in full speed throw their body into another players chest, of course they are going to lose their balance. There were some really pathetic calls like that this past game.

And it gets really prevalent when they have a big lead and the other team is getting blown out, if they have these small quick guards they just keep attacking the lane figuring they have nothing to lose. And with a big lead imo the refs become more whistle-happy for very small quick guards falling to the floor,.

It is very very very very frustrating when this happens. I thought in this past game some of those 2nd half fouls on UCONN were pathetic. Not saying UCONN didnt get away with calls etc. It's just those calls bug me and it appears they bug you the same as well.

 

[Redux]

Not saying UCONN didnt get away with calls etc

Over a period of time you'd think it would theoretically be 50-50, but in UConn's case, for a number of reasons it's not. For example: a disciplined, finely-tuned and coached team or a team that doesn't foul a lot will NOT actually be responsible in 50% of spurious call cases, it will be a lower %; thus a net negative for UConn at 50-50. When a phony call is made on an offense, it breaks the flow of that offense, which is going to have the future-possession effect of hurting a team with rhythm that relies on pace, movement and precision passing more than a more ragged team or a team that relies more on muscling. There are other reasons having to do with UConn's historical quality & style of play that belie the common notion that bad foul calls have a 50-50 effect over time.

A well-called game is usually going to benefit UConn, and a badly-called game, even random, is going to hurt UConn more than its opponent.

 

[npignatjr]

Just my $.02. Players will use whatever the rules allow in their arsenal.

In the past, when UCONN would especially play overly physical teams like ECU or UCF, UCONN would get beaten up the entire game because from the other teams' perspective, "refs won't call every foul".

Really? Why not? get 3 players with 3 fouls in Q1, and I suspect the overly physical play will instantly stop. It is really on schools who teach "play hard but don't foul" to continuously call it out to the refs, the conference, etc. Teams like UCONN who play "cleaner" ball, but have more talent, are usually the teams who are impacted by the "foul on very possession" style of play.

Other teams, like ND, who are FAMOUS for phantom flopping (Duke men as well. Sorry Traid and Cam), but I think that in the future, more use of the monitor to look at phantom flopping. At first it will be a PITA for time stoppage, but once they start penalizing teams for the faking, they will eventually stop. All IMHO of course.

The AAC teams are 2nd rate compared to old Big East teams, Rutgers, Georgetown, Syracuse, Notre Dame. On Notre Dame during the first Mabrey they had some chippy players, like Miles now.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

Believe it or not this is one of this year's points of emphasis. From the r ule book:


Points of Emphasis

In each edition of the NCAA Women's Basketball Rules Book, several areas are given special attention. These are identified as points of emphasis. While they may not represent any rules changes, their importance must not be overlooked. In some cases, the points of emphasis are more critical than some of the rules changes. For example, when a topic is included in the points of emphasis, there has been evidence during the previous year(s) that there has been inconsistency in administering these areas. The Rules Committee has identified the following as significant concerns that need to be addressed because of their increased occurrence. They are not listed in order of importance; they are all important.

View attachment 82101

Reading the text doesn't give me an impression that, even though this is a point of emphasis, there is much of a clear plan for enforcement.

The problem is there is no "rule" against it. I believe there is in the men's game. But in any case, that is their threat - to create a rule which can be enforced to punish floppers.

Flopping has been around a long time. I remember Duke practicing flopping when we stopped by to see an in-season tourney when Joe Ciampi was in his last year at Auburn (and I think Jim Flannery was in his first at Creighton, another of the participating teams) - plus we wanted to see Cameron Indoor . In fact, the refs were out for part of the "flopping" practice and laughing with one of the players.

OTH, I still remember when ODU player Merry Andrade was fouled out by Dennis DeMayo in the NCAA tourney because she stepped on his last nerve with excessive flopping. My wife was able to confirm the incident with him when he was a Big East guest speaker at the Rutgers fan club. He warned her, she didn't listen, so he took care of it in his own way.

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

Iirc, the block/charge rule is something like if the defender gets to the spot first it’s a charge, if not it’s a block. And if the offensive player lowers a shoulder it’s a charge regardless of who gets there first. But it can be tricky to tell exactly who gets to the spot first, and refs use some common indicators, like angles of contact and that sort of thing. This means it’s a judgment call with lots of room for disagreement.

Also, lowered shoulders aren’t always easy to see from every angle, which means refs can miss them. For example, in the Iowa game replays made it clear that Czinano lowered her shoulder when she hit Aaliyah. But the ref was under the basket and probably couldn’t see it. As a result, Aaliyah got called for a block.

Bone Dog - - -With 3 refs out there one of the 3 should see the foul being made! At least you would think so!

 

[Forego]

No. The rule requires the player to not leave the "designated spot" but the feet can move. What constitutes leaving the "designated spot" is not clear to me however.

Just to expand on what you wrote - Unlike after a made basket the player (handed the ball from the ref) must also be the player who in-bounds the ball. One the games I watched this past weekend (I can’t remember which one) a baseline in-bounder threw the ball to a teammate who was also behind the baseline so a clearer path to get the ball in-bounds was available. The ref blew the whistle and the ball was turned over.

 

[Beemer]

Bone Dog - - -With 3 refs out there one of the 3 should see the foul being made! At least you would think so!

You would think so....but you'd be wrong. The NHL went to a 2 referee system several years ago. Time and again I have watched the ref closest to the play decline to call a penalty but the ref standing 20 feet away with a worse sight angle decides to call it. It's enough to drive you to drink....

 

[HopJim]

While I agree with all the suggestions regarding changing the rules or changing how refs interpret the rules, this will not get done this year. Would rather the focus be on UConn's ability to contain the offensive player as they drive into the UConn defender. Have seen this being one of the main strategies against Huskies for years. When UConn has a big come out to cut off the drive, it seems to work well. Suspect we will see some changes once we get the majority of the Huskies back on the floor.

 

[Bone Dog]

The main thing about fouls on defense I remember from my playing days — long ago but not forgotten — is that they often result from not moving my feet quickly enough. If you’re late getting into position, you end up fouling, or you make it easier for the player you’re guarding to get a foul on you.

This is why tired players foul more. This has also been our problem of late. A short rotation isn’t such a problem if the team is in tournament shape. But we don’t appear to be in that sort of shape yet.

Flopping can exaggerate this simple equation about fouling, as can poor officiating. But the primary solution is to address the problem at its root — get healthy, get back to the conditioning that allows us to outrun everyone we play.

 

[Bone Dog]

On flopping, I watched the Texas USC game and noticed a couple things:

1. They’ve drawn 30 charges in 11 games. A few of them in this game were clear flops. We saw this when we played them — flopping was a defensive tactic for them and got ridiculous at times.

2. Without Moore and Jones, they still looked pretty tough. Gaston played well, and Harmon is getting her conditioning back. Faye is one of the chief floppers now that she’s seeing more minutes.

3. When Jones returns, and if they stop the flopping, Texas could be tough come tournament time. But can a team with a flopping culture ever give it up?

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

You would think so....but you'd be wrong. The NHL went to a 2 referee system several years ago. Time and again I have watched the ref closest to the play decline to call a penalty but the ref standing 20 feet away with a worse sight angle decides to call it. It's enough to drive you to drink....

Beemer- - -Years ago there were 2 WBB refs (since retired) that would make charge/block calls from mid-court line which drove me nuts!
But if the refs are within the area anyone of them SHOULD be able to see the foul!
IMHO WBB refs in college or WNBA are among the worst refs in any sport!

 

[rubymae4]

Men’s soccer thanks you for your interest in flopping.

 

[Forego]

Men’s soccer thanks you for your interest in flopping.

Play on!

 

[cancontent]

The referees don't know how to handle the offensive flop. I have seen Arkansas guards use it last year and now the FSU guards are using it as one their primary scoring options. Drive to the hoop and throw yourself at the defensive player and throw the ball towards the hoop and then fall downfall down.
1. This is best used against bigs by little guards. The big stands her ground with their hands up and the offensive player knows their shot with probably be blocked but throws themselves at the big and they will get to the foul line for two shots. This is 50 to 75 % of Watson's offensive arsenal. Lots of points from the line.
2. Lou did a fantastic job on Watson by falling backwards as Watson would throw herself at her. She was rewarded by getting two charges on her.
3. The refs can see the contact being created by the offensive player when the defensive player falls but not when the bigs stand straight up with their hands up. They are assuming when the player falls down it must be the defenders fault.

Did anyone else se this and is this a tendency in WBB. I call it Flop and shoot. I think the refs must be shown this and learn to determine who creates the contact is the fouler.

You're referring to when the player "sells the contact" correct? Flopping to me is in relation to defenders trying to draw charges. If that's the case, there are a lot of players who could be on this list beyond FSU.

Heck, we're seeing kids in HS and prep ball doing this because they see it works on various levels. NCAA men's have a rule for defensive flopping. Nothing for the women's side yet. Haven't heard anything regarding the women's side.

 

[cancontent]

Although I haven't seen it much, if at all, this year, I'd say, yes, Aaliyah has flopped a few times during her Huskies career... no one else recently that I can recall.

Are we talking offensively or defensively in this thread? What you're describing sounds like a defensive tactic versus what I think the original poster is referring to.

 

[OldSchooler]

Re the charge/block call, I'm old enough to remember (or maybe I'm just imagining) when a charge was only called when the defender held a rigid position for a full second before contact. The game has obviously sped up too much for that rule/interpretation to be workable.

Re foul calls in general, I went to college in the Boston area back in the Auerbach days, and I listened to the Celtics games on the radio. The Celts were good enough, in those days, that they didn't need any help, but in 4 years, according to their longtime radiocaster Johnny Most (Bill Bradley used to call him "Johnny Least"), the Celts never lost a game fair and square.. Either the other team "spent the entire night at the foul line," or the refs swallowed their whistles while the other team "out-muscled the Celts all night long."

 

[boontonbomber]

Reading all of these posts makes it clear to me that , given the difficulty of trying to officiate these days, BY'ers should stop complaining so much about UConn getting the short end from refs. All players, including UConn players , have a bit of "actor" in them.

 

[Forego]

Re the charge/block call, I'm old enough to remember (or maybe I'm just imagining) when a charge was only called when the defender held a rigid position for a full second before contact. The game has obviously sped up too much for that rule/interpretation to be workable.

Re foul calls in general, I went to college in the Boston area back in the Auerbach days, and I listened to the Celtics games on the radio. The Celts were good enough, in those days, that they didn't need any help, but in 4 years, according to their longtime radiocaster Johnny Most (Bill Bradley used to call him "Johnny Least"), the Celts never lost a game fair and square.. Either the other team "spent the entire night at the foul line," or the refs swallowed their whistles while the other team "out-muscled the Celts all night long."

I remember whenever the Celts missed a shot he told the radio audience the ball was “in and out”.

 

[jabstep]

I do not know what the correct answer to this question. However, I have see very clearly that a right handed person dribbling the ball or for that matter a left handed person use the alternate arm to push the defender away and the defender going to the floor. I have seen the defender called for a foul when I believe the offensive player should be called for that foul for using that arm to push the defender away. What is the correct answer?

Offensive player

 

[jabstep]

Men’s soccer thanks you for your interest in flopping.

I know it is hard to watch. They now can call a yellow card and did in the World cup final.

 

[jabstep]

You're referring to when the player "sells the contact" correct? Flopping to me is in relation to defenders trying to draw charges. If that's the case, there are a lot of players who could be on this list beyond FSU.

Heck, we're seeing kids in HS and prep ball doing this because they see it works on various levels. NCAA men's have a rule for defensive flopping. Nothing for the women's side yet. Haven't heard anything regarding the women's side.

I am talking about the offensive player selling a foul that they create. I watched a couple of FSU games bfore they played UConn and Latson gets around half her points on the foul line. She throws herself at the defensive player and gets a lot of calls from the refs. Lou got her becasue when she threw herself at Lou she did the flop to show the ref that the offensive player created the contact and made her fall.

 

[MSGRET]

I am talking about the offensive player selling a foul that they create. I watched a couple of FSU games bfore they played UConn and Latson gets around half her points on the foul line. She throws herself at the defensive player and gets a lot of calls from the refs. Lou got her becasue when she threw herself at Lou she did the flop to show the ref that the offensive player created the contact and made her fall.

I don't think that Lou actually did a flop, I think she went down too hard for it to be one.