What do you expect from refs?

[90BSEE]

I’m just wondering what Newton’s free throw average out of conference is and why it’s different then out of conference if the refs aren’t a problem?

All you need to do is look at the difference in trips to the line for both us and our opponents in and out of conference last year to see that there is a problem with Big East refs and Hurley. People have brought up lots of good points. I want to see consistency between in and out of conference, consistency from game to game, consistency from half to half, more fouls called for grabbing and pushing, less fouls called for breathing on another player and less bias against certain coaches.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

1) Get rid of replay
2) Technical fouls should be exceedingly rare
3) Get rid of replay

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

It can be done. I was at the women's game yesterday where they didn't blow the whistle everytime someone fell down. What a treat.

I mostly agree, but want to highlight a distinction I saw, and apply it to this thread.

In the second quarter, as Marquette tried to get back in the game, the players were clearly coached to converge on Aaliyah Edwards. They fouled her on nearly every play, and the refs simply called the fouls. If the fouls hadn't been called, it would have affected Edwards and the game. But that strategy didn't work, so Marquette had no chance to compete successfully. At the time, it was their only chance, and seem worth trying.

It reminded me of the St John's game, in which Pitino kept testing the limits to the refs' willingness to allow his team's roughness. He got some play, but when the limits were reached, his team didn't fare so well.

Just as any parent knows that kids will test limits, I expect many coaches to make this a part of game-planning and management. If coaches and players have to make adjustments in response to what is happening on the court, why is there great mystery or concern when referees do similarly?

In such a context, consistency can have several meanings, some of which have been touched on by others.

 

[REB1094]

I’d like more consistency. Maybe this is just because I watch more BE games than other conferences, but BE refs are REALLY inconsistent. They’ll call the first half one way in terms of physicality, and then call the second half completely different. Once an officiating crew sets the tone, they should stick with it. Let the players and coaches adjust to the style.

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

I expect each team to show up with a game plan, and adjust to the game as it's played. I'm not surprised to see that refs sometimes adjust.

Any parent knows that children like to test limits, and often push until the limits are located and enforced. If a coach prepares his team to test limits, both the opponents and refs have to respond, and it happens in real time.

Consustency seems to be the consensus desire, but not all consistency is the same, as we can see from the variety of comments by others in this subject.

 

[Husky68]

Would like to see foul call when player posts up by continually banging shoulder into chest of defender.

 

[coachn]

UConn get ready for 5 vs 8 every game. Don't do anything to cause the ire of the refs like having shirts untucked.
No matter what be a gentleman and don't beg for trouble.

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

I expect each team to show up with a game plan, and adjust to the game as it's played. I'm not surprised to see that refs sometimes adjust.

Any parent knows that children like to test limits, and often push until the limits are located and enforced. If a coach prepares his team to test limits, both the opponents and refs have to respond, and it happens in real time.

Consustency seems to be the consensus desire, but not all consistency is the same, as we can see from the variety of comments by others in this subject.

Oops, this was a draft or clumsy recreation of what's above. I got distracted by a toddler somewhere along the way.

 

[Viet Vet]

Call it even. Call fewer fouls. Let ‘em play down the stretch.

Let ‘em play “down the stretch” implies calling the game differently at the end than at the beginning.

That’s the antithesis of consistency.

 

[housekeys]

Oops, this was a draft or clumsy recreation of what's above. I got distracted by a toddler somewhere along the way.

I think your toddler was just testing your limits.

 

[imno1]

Every sport that I follow has video replay (either a challenge or as part of a rule). The NBA has a coaches challenge, that for the most part, works. College basketball is the exception (not talking about last minute - out of bound etc). A coach's challenge on a foul, or travel, or even a 3 second call. Such a challenge on Diarra's last second drive in the Kansas game, may have won it for UConn. Samson Johnson travel vs St John's etc. Just a thought.

I like the idea of a challenge but not in the Samson example because nothing was called.

 

[prankster]

I’d like more consistency. Maybe this is just because I watch more BE games than other conferences, but BE refs are REALLY inconsistent. They’ll call the first half one way in terms of physicality, and then call the second half completely different. Once an officiating crew sets the tone, they should stick with it. Let the players and coaches adjust to the style.

BTW, unsaid so far, is the fact that the disparities created by calling foules one way and then another can never be sorted out. Refs have a nasty habit of getting certain players in foul trouble early, then try to "even things out" by calling "make up fouls " later.

The disparity created early can never be absolved by fouls called in the final 5 minutes.

 

[REB1094]

BTW, unsaid so far, is the fact that the disparities created by calling foules one way and then another can never be sorted out. Refs have a nasty habit of getting certain players in foul trouble early, then try to "even things out" by calling "make up fouls " later.

The disparity created early can never be absolved by fouls called in the final 5 minutes.

Yep, I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve thought to myself “they’re just evening out the calls now” in the last 5-7 minutes of a decided game

Again, maybe this happens in other conferences too. But I’ve noticed it a lot more in BE games

 

[jake14mw]

Interesting responses. Most of the answers were either about how Big East refs call games differently, or talking about wanting consistency. Most of the rest were either posts about refs being anti-UConn or generally bad and deserving criticism. Almost none of them acknowledged that "mistakes" will be made by human referees, and that's life.

Seventy responses, and I think only one made the key point - People as fans are so biased that when things don't go their way, they blame the refs. You guys do realize that most of you aren't objective at all, right? Or do you think that after most UConn games, fans of the other teams are saying "Wow, poor UConn, those refs really hosed them tonight"? Will you even admit that you see things through National flag blue glasses?

I think the vast majority of referees are simply people trying to do the best job that they can. Just like any of us doing our jobs. Most calls people get upset about are not black and white. They're judgement calls. I think most organizations hiring referees hire the best referees available. Those referees happen to be human beings that have to make calls as they see them from their angle with no closeups or instant replay. They want to make the right call.

 

[Jaydumo20]

I was in the middle of writing a rebuke thread to the notion of an anti-uconn bias on ESPN- but I stopped in order to gain more perspective.
I've heard more than whispers about an anti-uconn bias in the media (mainly on the BY)

Is there are any real concrete reason why a media outlet would uniformly choose to pursue an anti-uconn sports policy in their programming? It would have to be intentional not coincidental for such a bias to exist.

Could it be merely the plight of the every-fan who feels that anything less than a gushing for their program is an exclusion?

Is there proof to this supposition?

 

[dennismenace]

John Cahill - Staff Directory - Big East Conference

John Cahill Supervisor of Officials, Men's Basketball

www.bigeast.com

I thought it was Lindsey Graham for a minute.

 

[FlippinCrazy!]

Interesting responses. Most of the answers were either about how Big East refs call games differently, or talking about wanting consistency. Most of the rest were either posts about refs being anti-UConn or generally bad and deserving criticism. Almost none of them acknowledged that "mistakes" will be made by human referees, and that's life.

Seventy responses, and I think only one made the key point - People as fans are so biased that when things don't go their way, they blame the refs. You guys do realize that most of you aren't objective at all, right? Or do you think that after most UConn games, fans of the other teams are saying "Wow, poor UConn, those refs really hosed them tonight"? Will you even admit that you see things through National flag blue glasses?

I think the vast majority of referees are simply people trying to do the best job that they can. Just like any of us doing our jobs. Most calls people get upset about are not black and white. They're judgement calls. I think most organizations hiring referees hire the best referees available. Those referees happen to be human beings that have to make calls as they see them from their angle with no closeups or instant replay. They want to make the right call.

Key point to you and your ref colleagues maybe. Not to us reasonable folk

 

[OkaForPrez]

I’d like to see more attention paid to disruption of off ball cutting. This is where good offense creates good shots. And where the physicality in the Big East reward simplicity and therefore “dumbs down” the game.

Great basketball is when a series of great decisions (pass, dribble drive, shoot) stack on each other and create enough separation to get a good shot. When you are executing that, and gaining an advantage, only to lose it because a cutter who has a step on their man is shucked by a defender reaching out and grabbing them to “fight through” a screen after being egregiously late, that’s a big deal.

What this leads to is iso dribble drive and nobody running an offense at all.

Which is further exacerbated by refs rewarding that behavior as well. In our conference, getting downhill and body seeking without really any intent to score gets rewarded with two at the stripe.

When you disincentive running offense and incentivize the opposite, you’ve ruined the game.

That, stylistically, was the way alot of the games were called last year.

We play beautiful basketball under Hurley, when the officiating allows it.

 

[nycscooby]

Consistency is the consensus. It might not be a conspiracy against UConn, but it’s obvious that whether it’s against UConn or Hurley, we are guaranteed to be going uphill before the ball is even tossed up.

I really think all the refs respect Danny because of his coaching prowess and what he’s accomplished in his coaching career. But, I really believe most of the refs don’t like him and most of it is brought on by Danny himself. Although he has gotten better, his histrionics show the refs up (and by no means am I saying his histrionics are not on point a good percentage of the time) but I just feel like he doesn’t know how to get his point across effectively to most of the refs in a way that they can accept it. And, I do think some of the refs look to get into it with Danny and that’s BS but when they don’t like you…

 

[Bazz2014]

I’d like to see more attention paid to disruption of off ball cutting. This is where good offense creates good shots. And where the physicality in the Big East reward simplicity and therefore “dumbs down” the game.

Great basketball is when a series of great decisions (pass, dribble drive, shoot) stack on each other and create enough separation to get a good shot. When you are executing that, and gaining an advantage, only to lose it because a cutter who has a step on their man is shucked by a defender reaching out and grabbing them to “fight through” a screen after being egregiously late, that’s a big deal.

What this leads to is iso dribble drive and nobody running an offense at all.

Which is further exacerbated by refs rewarding that behavior as well. In our conference, getting downhill and body seeking without really any intent to score gets rewarded with two at the stripe.

When you disincentive running offense and incentivize the opposite, you’ve ruined the game.

That, stylistically, was the way alot of the games were called last year.

We play beautiful basketball under Hurley, when the officiating allows it.

Perfectly said. Consistency is not just about whether you call the game “tight” or “loose” for 40 mins- it’s about the level of contact that is deemed foul/non-foul being consistent whether it’s on or off the ball.

If every 2 hand touch between half court and the 3 point line is called as a hand check and every swing of the arm under the basket is a foul, then every time you grab a jersey or blowup a screener to impede off ball movement should also be a foul. Right now, BE officials call a lot at the top of the key and right around the basket but they ignore off ball contact. That creates a huge problem for teams (like UConn) who emphasize off ball action in their offense and gives a huge advantage to teams that rely primarily on getting downhill, 1-on-1 and then creating via kick out or foul.

 

[tower1]

I honestly get so tired of people talking about how bad refs are in games. Every single post game thread somebody has to complain about them. Typically they are pointing to one play or another. You do understand that referees are human beings, right? What percentage of calls do you expect them to get “right”? I say “right” because there are so many calls in a game that are subjective and if you polled people, 60% would say one way, and 40% would say the other way.

And on a similar note, I think the abuse officials take from coaches/fans is inexcusable. Have fun trying to find referees for youth and high schools these days. Who wants to deal with that crap? Who are all these youth coaches/parents watching to figure out what’s acceptable? The guys they watch on TV. If you’re watching Dan Hurley, pretty much anything is acceptable I guess. Don’t get me wrong, I love Hurley and his passion and am glad we have him, I just hate his referee abuse.

Ha, rant off. Thought this would be an interesting discussion in this long break between games. Thoughts?

These are not youth games. The problem with all these calls is they interrupt the flow of the games too much. The refs make too many touch calls that should not be called. That's why fans get frustrated, they act like they get paid by the amount of fowls they call that's why they call allot of fowls that don't exist. Stop calling so many fowls and let the kids play no one want to see you on tv !!

 

[prankster]

These are not youth games. The problem with all these calls is they interrupt the flow of the games too much. The refs make too many touch calls that should not be called. That's why fans get frustrated, they act like they get paid by the amount of fowls they call that's why they call allot of fowls that don't exist. Stop calling so many fowls and let the kids play no one want to see you on tv !!

It is not, necessarily, the number called (although, that can interrupt the flow).

As mentioned above, how many off the ball calls are ignored?

And as I think on the De Paul game there was more than one bucket by Castle where he made the bucket while the defender had both arms around his waist. No call.

Why the no call? He was clearly in the act. The fact that he made them is no absolution.

Call the game fairly and properly. The coaches will control the players soon enough.

Then the game will establish it's own, proper, flow.

 

[jake14mw]

These are not youth games. The problem with all these calls is they interrupt the flow of the games too much. The refs make too many touch calls that should not be called. That's why fans get frustrated, they act like they get paid by the amount of fowls they call that's why they call allot of fowls that don't exist. Stop calling so many fowls and let the kids play no one want to see you on tv !!

You are saying that there are too many fouls called, and others are saying that there are not enough fouls called in the Big East. I still really think that it's fandom trying to lay blame for things elsewhere and not on "their" team. But it's clear that I'm alone in this opinion! I guess this is just a very rational group of folks that are extremely adept at identifying referee inconsistencies.

 

[OkaForPrez]

I’d like to see more attention paid to disruption of off ball cutting. This is where good offense creates good shots. And where the physicality in the Big East reward simplicity and therefore “dumbs down” the game.

Great basketball is when a series of great decisions (pass, dribble drive, shoot) stack on each other and create enough separation to get a good shot. When you are executing that, and gaining an advantage, only to lose it because a cutter who has a step on their man is shucked by a defender reaching out and grabbing them to “fight through” a screen after being egregiously late, that’s a big deal.

What this leads to is iso dribble drive and nobody running an offense at all.

Which is further exacerbated by refs rewarding that behavior as well. In our conference, getting downhill and body seeking without really any intent to score gets rewarded with two at the stripe.

When you disincentive running offense and incentivize the opposite, you’ve ruined the game.

That, stylistically, was the way alot of the games were called last year.

We play beautiful basketball under Hurley, when the officiating allows it.

Yesterday against X was exactly what I was talking about. Scored 9 of 11 points from the line to tighten it up down the stretch by running 0 offense. They weren’t even ball screening. Just 5 out curl to the paint and throw up a wild shot and go to the line.