Westbrook to Uconn [merged thread] | Page 15 | The Boneyard

Westbrook to Uconn [merged thread]

CocoHusky said:
Fools gold IMO. I actually think Crystal in particular and the entire team in general was way too dependent on the 3 ball last year. There is a dual price to be paid for shooting that many . The first price is long rebounds that triggers the other teams transition and the second price is you take away from one of Crystal's greatest asset which is to penetrate, compromise the defense and get easy baskets for the interior players.
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Crystal not only took 3, but I think since she is shorter, she tends to take them much further out than say Lou's 3 pt shots, maybe to avoid being blocked. I also wish that she penetrated more.
 
oldude said:
So let me counter your argument. Having several players on the floor who can knock down 3’s stretches an opponent’s defense allowing players to put the ball on the floor and penetrate to the basket for layups or midrange jumpers, even against a zone. If Crystal wasn’t a good 3-pt shooter she wouldn’t have the opportunity to penetrate because defenders would just play off her.

As for long rebounds, yes they can lead to transition baskets, but they also lead to many more offensive rebounds, particularly against a zone defense, which makes it more difficult for defenders to box out.

Ultimately, teams can not survive solely by the 3-pt shot, but it certainly makes the game a lot easier when you have a team full of players who can knock down shots.
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Focus on Crystal specifically and that will crystalize my issue- pun intended. More than half (233 of 437) of Crystal's shot attempts were from 3PT range. That is way too many when your primary job description is being a PG. Crystal's 233 attempts were only 4 less than KLS. A year prior Kia Nurse had 184 attempts and KLS had 202. KML's peak in 3PtFG attempts was her Freshmen year at UCONN=248. Either way you look at it that's too many 3PT shot attempts coming from the PG position and definitely not justified by an accuracy rate of ~ 35%.
 
CocoHusky said:
Focus on Crystal specifically and that will crystalize my issue- pun intended. More than half (233 of 437) of Crystal's shot attempts were from 3PT range. That is way too many when your primary job description is being a PG. Crystal's 233 attempts were only 4 less than KLS. A year prior Kia Nurse had 184 attempts and KLS had 202. KML's peak in 3PtFG attempts was her Freshmen year at UCONN=248. Either way you look at it that's too many 3PT shot attempts coming from the PG position and definitely not justified by an accuracy rate of ~ 35%.
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I agree that Crystal shot a high percentage of 3’s, but her total was not out of line with other top pg’s. Ionescu shot 219 threes this past season on 609 total shots. While you will argue that Ionescu had a much better ratio than Crystal, I will argue that at 5’5”? Crystal has far less ability to get her shot off inside among the trees than Ionescu, who is a great finisher at the rim.
 
oldude said:
I agree that Crystal shot a high percentage of 3’s, but her total was not out of line with other top pg’s. Ionescu shot 219 threes this past season on 609 total shots. While you will argue that Ionescu had a much better ratio than Crystal, I will argue that at 5’5”? Crystal has far less ability to get her shot off inside among the trees than Ionescu, who is a great finisher at the rim.
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I think Ionescu numbers are more supportive of my argument (Crystal shoots too many 3) than it is of your argument because 3PtFG attempts =35% for Sabrina vs. 53% for Crystal. Additionally Sabrina is not the Oregon "fulltime" PG. Graves often has Sabrina playing off the ball with Carzola manning the point. My other counter is that Crystal is very crafty once she get to the rim. Crystal has a very good floater and Euro step that she uses to shoot over larger defenders.
 
CocoHusky said:
I think Ionescu numbers are more supportive of my argument (Crystal shoots too many 3) than it is of your argument because 3PtFG attempts =35% for Sabrina vs. 53% for Crystal. Additionally Sabrina is not the Oregon "fulltime" PG. Graves often has Sabrina playing off the ball with Carzola manning the point. My other counter is that Crystal is very crafty once she get to the rim. Crystal has a very good floater and Euro step that she uses to shoot over larger defenders.
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You also need to take into account that her numbers are impacted by being the person who ended up with the ball when the offense stagnated and the shot clock ran down + she was the main person taking the last shot before the end of a quarter. So her 3 point stats may be a little misleading
 
Rocket009 said:
You also need to take into account that her numbers are impacted by being the person who ended up with the ball when the offense stagnated and the shot clock ran down + she was the main person taking the last shot before the end of a quarter. So her 3 point stats may be a little misleading
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If by her you mean Crystal that was certainly part of it. However, some of that was self-inflicted. If you are the PG chartered with running the offense and often the balls ends up in your hands with the shot clock running down some of that falls on you.
 
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CocoHusky said:
Fools gold IMO. I actually think Crystal in particular and the entire team in general was way too dependent on the 3 ball last year. There is a dual price to be paid for shooting that many . The first price is long rebounds that triggers the other teams transition and the second price is you take away from one of Crystal's greatest asset which is to penetrate, compromise the defense and get easy baskets for the interior players.
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The only way this works is if a team adopts the Houston Rockets style of BB. That is, start at the arc. If the defender is off you hoist the 3. If he closes to fast, dribble penetrate and go for the layup. Get your defender in the air and get the foul shot. The analytics say these are the shots that get the most bang for your buck. The problem is 1) If your big scorer is cold others have to take up the slack from the line and have the ability to penetrate and draw the foul. 2) During high leverage moments and games, conference playoffs and championship games, referee's tend to let players play and allow more physical play. This has the effect of both throwing off a players shots and reduces the amount of FT's. It gets into players heads. Meaning this style has yet to show it's a championship style.
 
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CocoHusky said:
If by her you mean Crystal that was certainly part of it. However, some of that was self-inflicted. If you are the PG chartered with running the offense and often the balls ends up in your hands with the shot clock running down some of that falls on you.
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As Allen Iverson once said when asked why he shoots so much, "I get the ball across the line with 20 secs left on the clock. I pass the ball to a guy, he passes the ball to another guy, he passes to another, the ball gets back to me with 5 secs left on the clock. What do you want me to do? I gotta take the shot."
 
JordyG said:
The only way this works is if a team adopts the Houston Rockets style of BB. That is, start at the arc. If the defender is off you hoist the 3. If he closes to fast, dribble penetrate and go for the layup. Get your defender in the air and get the foul shot. The analytics say these are the shots that get the most bank for your buck. The problem is 1) If your big scorer is cold others have to take up the slack from the line and have the ability to penetrate and draw the foul. 2) During high leverage moments and games, conference playoffs and championship games, referee's tend to let players play and allow more physical play. This has the effect of both throwing off a players shots and reduces the amount of FT's. It gets into players heads. Meaning this style has yet to show it's a championship style.
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You are referring to the same Houston Rocket team that just lost to the Warriors in 6 with Durant on the sideline.
 
CocoHusky said:
I think Ionescu numbers are more supportive of my argument (Crystal shoots too many 3) than it is of your argument because 3PtFG attempts =35% for Sabrina vs. 53% for Crystal. Additionally Sabrina is not the Oregon "fulltime" PG. Graves often has Sabrina playing off the ball with Carzola manning the point. My other counter is that Crystal is very crafty once she get to the rim. Crystal has a very good floater and Euro step that she uses to shoot over larger defenders.
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While I love Crystal, and she has an arsenal of spectacular “playground” moves that she’s developed over the years playing against much bigger opponents, there is really no comparison between Crystal and Ionescu when it comes to finishing at the rim.

Crystal pretty much needs a clear lane to finish at the rim. Otherwise she has to pull up and take a jumper or make some kind of spectacular running, one-hander high off the glass. On several occasions, particularly early in the season, Crystal was caught up in the air in the paint with nowhere to go with the ball, which usually resulted in a TO.

At 5’11, Ionescu is a much stronger finisher at the rim. She can finish in traffic against bigger players and her exceptional body control results in numerous “and ones.”
 
oldude said:
While I love Crystal, and she has an arsenal of spectacular “playground” moves that she’s developed over the years playing against much bigger opponents, there is really no comparison between Crystal and Ionescu when it comes to finishing at the rim.
Crystal pretty much needs a clear lane to finish at the rim. Otherwise she has to pull up and take a jumper or make some kind of spectacular running, one-hander high off the glass. On several occasions, particularly early in the season, Crystal was caught up in the air in the paint with nowhere to go with the ball, which usually resulted in a TO.
At 5’11, Ionescu is a much stronger finisher at the rim. She can finish in traffic against bigger players and her exceptional body control results in numerous “and ones.”
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I think you (we) may be straying too far from my original point by comparing Sabrina to Crystal. One other data point in an attempt to get back on point. Crystal's 53% of FGA being from beyond 3pt line is a UCONN program high water mark. Not even that great markswoman KML reach such a percentage.
 
CocoHusky said:
If by her you mean Crystal that was certainly part of it. However, some of that was self-inflicted. If you are the PG chartered with running the offense and often the balls ends up in your hands with the shot clock running down some of that falls on you.
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Yes, I was talking about Crystal- sorry for not making that clear. The offense was not just Crystals fault though- earlier in the season, you only had two players looking to score, so that killed the offensive flow when other teams Knew that KLS or NC were the ones to focus on. It was better later in the season when everyone was looking to score.

I do agree that the team was a little 3 happy at times and could have been more efficient with more mid range shots in the mix.
 
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CocoHusky said:
I think you (we) may be straying too far from my original point by comparing Sabrina to Crystal. One other data point in an attempt to get back on point. Crystal's 53% of FGA being from beyond 3pt line is a UCONN program high water mark. Not even that great markswoman KML reach such a percentage.
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I’m afraid you’re mistaken. During her senior year KML took 248 threes out of 396 total shots, or 62% of all her shots. Not to be outdone, the following season Lou, only a freshman, took 198 threes out of her 298 shots, or 66% of all her shots.

Every player has a different role in Geno’s offense. Crystal took 53% of her shots from the arc and played more minutes than any other Husky. That tells me that Geno was basically OK with Crystal’s shot selection.
 
oldude said:
I’m afraid you’re mistaken. During her senior year KML took 248 threes out of 396 total shots, or 62% of all her shots. Not to be outdone, the following season Lou, only a freshman, took 198 threes out of her 298 shots, or 66% of all her shots.

Every player has a different role in Geno’s offense. Crystal took 53% of her shots from the arc and played more minutes than any other Husky. That tells me that Geno was basically OK with Crystal’s shot selection.
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Come on you are a better debater than. You can't just pull the Geno was "ok" with it so I must be right card. :D
 
oldude said:
So let me counter your argument. Having several players on the floor who can knock down 3’s stretches an opponent’s defense allowing players to put the ball on the floor and penetrate to the basket for layups or midrange jumpers, even against a zone. If Crystal wasn’t a good 3-pt shooter she wouldn’t have the opportunity to penetrate because defenders would just play off her.

As for long rebounds, yes they can lead to transition baskets, but they also lead to many more offensive rebounds, particularly against a zone defense, which makes it more difficult for defenders to box out.

Ultimately, teams can not survive solely by the 3-pt shot, but it certainly makes the game a lot easier when you have a team full of players who can knock down shots.
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That was going to be my response too. Its that fact that the opponent won't know who will eventually take the shot whether that be a 3pt or drive to the basket.
 
CocoHusky said:
Come on you are a better debater than. You can't just pull the Geno was "ok" with it so I must be right card. :D
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The truth is, you wear me out, because your arguments are usually persuasive. You can only imagine my relief when I checked on KML’s shooting stats. :rolleyes:
 
DEpup said:
That was going to be my response too. Its that fact that the opponent won't know who will eventually take the shot whether that be a 3pt or drive to the basket.
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An opponent never knows anything as fact. All scouts are based on playing percentages and tendencies. Crystal's scout says more than half her shots are from behind the line. It also says she can go left or right. When she is going left play her to pass when going right play her to shoot. Here is something else to consider many of Crystal's shot are of the wide open variety. Can't remember a time when an opponent had to stress about Crystal from behind the arc. Maybe the regional final against South Carolina in 2018 when she was on fire.
 
oldude said:
You are referring to the same Houston Rocket team that just lost to the Warriors in 6 with Durant on the sideline.
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Yep. The same team with Harden that went 3-20 against the Jazz in game 3 this year, and 2-13 from deep in game 7 against the Warriors last year. Harden's game is dependent on making outside shots and getting to the line. If he fails in the former and the refs swallow the whistle on the latter his team is doooooooooooooooooooomed.
 
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JordyG said:
As Allen Iverson once said when asked why he shoots so much, "I get the ball across the line with 20 secs left on the clock. I pass the ball to a guy, he passes the ball to another guy, he passes to another, the ball gets back to me with 5 secs left on the clock. What do you want me to do? I gotta take the shot."
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Iverson had no concept of team basketball, street or school yard basketball yes but team basketball nope.
 
Part of what drives me crazy is that I just read all the posts on page 18 of a thread entitled "Westbrook to Uconn", and never once saw one mention of Westbrook.
In the interest of transparency, I admit to skipping the video from" Tennessee crazy". I live in Alabama, and see more than my fair share of crazy every day. No sense going someplace even crazier! Glad we got Westbrook though, and Go Huskies.
 
CocoHusky said:
We do.
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I guess the strong implication (and beyond implication) that Tennessee players should inflict bodily injury on Westbrook is what got my attention. In the statements made in this video, remember the words of Eddard Stark... "Everything before the word "but" is horseshit".

 
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Bama fan said:
Part of what drives me crazy is that I just read all the posts on page 18 of a thread entitled "Westbrook to Uconn", and never once saw one mention of Westbrook.
In the interest of transparency, I admit to skipping the video from" Tennessee crazy". I live in Alabama, and see more than my fair share of crazy every day. No sense going someplace even crazier! Glad we got Westbrook though, and Go Huskies.
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In fairness, though, I guess that means there were 17 other pages of posts talking about Westbrook to UCONN? I think overall the fans are beyond thrilled. Yesterday Geno addressed the comments she made after the vols lost in the 2nd round of the NCAA's and said something like "heat of the moment, probably not the best thing to say, but we talked about it and it had no impact (on my decision to recruit her)".

Having said that, one of the big story lines in landing her is she transferred from Tennessee. And there is no love lost on Evina's account in leaving. Many (not just a few) fans online absolutely raked her over the coals with criticisms while she was still at Tennessee. So much so that even her mom got into it with a fan on social media defending her daughter. And obviously it's gotten worse since she left.

Even now, many of the fans are posting bitter things about her. Evina most likely was aware of some/much of the vitriol posted by Tennessee fans hence the "sorry, not sorry" salvo on her way out the door. Can't say I blame her one bit. Pretty disgraceful for a fan base in general, and for anyone calling on Tennessee players to inflict bodily harm on her "not enough to end her career, but rough play and put her on her ass". Good grief that's insane. And worthy of discussion on our board since it directly is related to Evina's decision to come to UCONN...
 
psconn said:
I guess the strong implication (and beyond implication) that Tennessee players should inflict bodily injury on Westbrook is what got my attention. In the statements made in this video, remember the words of Eddard Stark... "Everything before the word "but" is horseshit".

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As opposed to the series where everything said after season 7 was horsespit.
 
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