WBIT - Villanova still in it (Go Lucy!) | The Boneyard

WBIT - Villanova still in it (Go Lucy!)

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RockyMTblue2 said:
Tired of the NCAA bias that shortchanges the Big East, men and women. May they go all the way.
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I believe that all conferences should be restricted to no more than 8 teams and any team with a losing conference record should only get in if it wins the conference tournament. If the AQ is a team with a losing conference record the conference is still held to only 8 teams.
 
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huskeynut said:
Selection committee is P5 biased.
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The data don't back this up.

Columbia got a bid this year and Miami, surprisingly, didn't. Gonzaga was awarded a hosting spot despite a bad loss to Portland in the WCC tournament.

I'm happy Nova is doing well in the WBIT, but so are p5 teams that also narrowly missed an NCAA bid, such as Washington State and Penn State.

Notice as well that Illinois, which finished under .500 on the season, is also still alive in the WBIT.
 
huskeynut said:
Selection committee is P5 biased.
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If anyone in the Big East would have even challenged UConn in a game I think they would have had a better chance at a 4th. That and a couple early exits in tournaments really hurt some of the teams still fighting for the WNIT title.
 
Plebe said:
The data don't back this up.

Columbia got a bid this year and Miami, surprisingly, didn't. Gonzaga was awarded a hosting spot despite a bad loss to Portland in the WCC tournament.

I'm happy Nova is doing well in the WBIT, but so are p5 teams that also narrowly missed an NCAA bid, such as Washington State and Penn State.

Notice as well that Illinois, which finished under .500 on the season, is also still alive in the WBIT.
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And I just looked up my BE spreadsheet where I list schedules and highlight according to wins and losses. I don't see that the Big East - at least this year - has much to complain about. So far as a quick glance goes, the out of conference schedules of teams that didn't make the dance don't stand out, for example, Villanova's best win was Wake Forest, I think, and they lost twice to Creighton but did beat Marquette twice. But lost to Providence and Butler. And their OOC schedule was one of the better (on quick glance).

I think the perceived bias to the Power 5 is largely in their assorted NET rankings, RPI, and all the rest. I'm not complaining that Arizona made the tourney - we were arguably better than our record with a lot of close games, but close only counts in horseshoes and atom bombs - but we played one of the toughest schedules (thanks, PAC and a few OOC teams that did well) and this, plus those close games got us in.

Women's Basketball remains well stratified, if not quite so much as it was at one time. A couple elites (this might have been a larger group in the past), a number of very, very good teams, a gap to the next level, still fine teams, and some, like Gonzaga, not in the Power 5, then a moderate drop to the mix of passable mid-power 5 (very few non P5 here except from the Big East) and then another big drop to all the rest, including the dregs of the P5 and most of the "mid-majors". At least, that's how I see it.
 
RockyMTblue2 said:
Tired of the NCAA bias that shortchanges the Big East, men and women. May they go all the way.
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Huh? Nova did not deserve an NCAA bid and as #1 seed, they should win 3 games, plus weren’t all three at Nova? I do think thr Men’s BE got the short end but the fact Marqjette was a#10 seed when frankly, they should have been on the bubble. BTW, when is this coaching savant who wants her name mentioned for every P5 opening actually going to win something to warrant all the hype? Duffy‘s never won 1 post season game. Chew on that.

I am willing to say “Rah rah Big East” when warranted but this is not the hill I will die on…Teams need to up their OOC and you know, win those games to earn their way in..
 
MSGRET said:
I believe that all conferences should be restricted to no more than 8 teams and any team with a losing conference record should only get in if it wins the conference tournament. If the AQ is a team with a losing conference record the conference is still held to only 8 teams.
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With the changes to the P5 conferences next year, it could get a lot worse come Selection Sundays.
 
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Centerstream said:
With the changes to the P5 conferences next year, it could get a lot worse come Selection Sundays.
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You realize the selection committee is trying to get the best 36 teams in the tournament after the 32 conference bids right? It so happens that YES, the soon to be P4 will have the vast majority of the better teams so I just don't understand the confusion with you and @MSGRET on this issue. The simple fact is the Big East really only had 2 teams deserving yet they go 3 teams in. Go look at Marquette's resume and tell me who their signature wins are? For that matter go look at Villanova and tell me what quality wins they had?

I am rooting for Nova and Lucy in the WBIT but it's not like they were robbed of an NCAAT bid. As I have said and others with intimate knowledge of the selection criteria, the BE needs to up it's OOC, win those games and then they have an argument.
 
MSGRET said:
I believe that all conferences should be restricted to no more than 8 teams and any team with a losing conference record should only get in if it wins the conference tournament. If the AQ is a team with a losing conference record the conference is still held to only 8 teams.
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I don’t see any merit in this suggestion. It is not giving out tickets for participation awards or equal opportunity presentations. It’s like to tell IOC that each country could only send athletes to 8 events max.
 
DefenseBB said:
You realize the selection committee is trying to get the best 36 teams in the tournament after the 32 conference bids right? It so happens that YES, the soon to be P4 will have the vast majority of the better teams so I just don't understand the confusion with you and @MSGRET on this issue. The simple fact is the Big East really only had 2 teams deserving yet they go 3 teams in. Go look at Marquette's resume and tell me who their signature wins are? For that matter go look at Villanova and tell me what quality wins they had?

I am rooting for Nova and Lucy in the WBIT but it's not like they were robbed of an NCAAT bid. As I have said and others with intimate knowledge of the selection criteria, the BE needs to up it's OOC, win those games and then they have an argument.
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You have a a lot of other conferences out there that if the conference regular season champion losses in the conference tournament they get left out, while some team that finishes 9th or has a losing conference record gets invited. I believe that the regular season conference champion should be rewarded for the body of work, before some team that finishes so low in the conference does. I also believe that the only way a team with a losing conference record should get in is they win the AQ by winning the conference tournament. Starting next year I believe that there will be only 31 conference bids. The NCAA always says they want to grow the game, well it doesn't sell well if they keep dishing the other 27 conferences after the P4 invitees start getting maybe 9 to 12 teams in the tournament.
 
DefenseBB said:
You realize the selection committee is trying to get the best 36 teams in the tournament after the 32 conference bids right? It so happens that YES, the soon to be P4 will have the vast majority of the better teams so I just don't understand the confusion with you and @MSGRET on this issue. The simple fact is the Big East really only had 2 teams deserving yet they go 3 teams in. Go look at Marquette's resume and tell me who their signature wins are? For that matter go look at Villanova and tell me what quality wins they had?

I am rooting for Nova and Lucy in the WBIT but it's not like they were robbed of an NCAAT bid. As I have said and others with intimate knowledge of the selection criteria, the BE needs to up it's OOC, win those games and then they have an argument.
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I have no confusion. I am only saying that with the additional teams in the B1G, ACC and SEC, the possibility of more teams from these conferences being selected to the NCAAT is likely, regardless of their records.
 
MSGRET said:
You have a a lot of other conferences out there that if the conference regular season champion losses in the conference tournament they get left out, while some team that finishes 9th or has a losing conference record gets invited. I believe that the regular season conference champion should be rewarded for the body of work, before some team that finishes so low in the conference does. I also believe that the only way a team with a losing conference record should get in is they win the AQ by winning the conference tournament. Starting next year I believe that there will be only 31 conference bids. The NCAA always says they want to grow the game, well it doesn't sell well if they keep dishing the other 27 conferences after the P4 invitees start getting maybe 9 to 12 teams in the tournament.
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The issue is the conference regular season winner has not done enough by any of the metrics to warrant inclusion. Gonzaga, as an example, won the regular season,played a strong OOC and earned a bid and a hosting slot. That is one case where the committee did what it should do. So please Name a specific school that won the regiular season, lost the tournament and should have earned a bid? Also name the school that you feel was undeserving? I have noticed with your paper arguments that you rarely supply evidence of such transgressions, so please enlighten us.
 
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DefenseBB said:
The issue is the conference regular season winner has not done enough by any of the metrics to warrant inclusion. Gonzaga, as an example, won the regular season,played a strong OOC and earned a bid and a hosting slot. That is one case where the committee did what it should do. So please Name a specific school that won the regiular season, lost the tournament and should have earned a bid? Also name the school that you feel was undeserving? I have noticed with your paper arguments that you rarely supply evidence of such transgressions, so please enlighten us.
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A couple of years ago it happened to the MAC, it's happened to the MW, I believe that it happened to the Ivy League. Almost every non P5 Conference at least once since the expanding to 64 now 68 teams has had it happen. I don't give a darn about metrics, some of those P5 conference teams refuse to play mid majors, so how is a mid major going to get a shot. I believe that South Dakota State was the regular season conference winner a few years ago and lost in the second round because one of their star players was sick. They didn't make it to the dance, but a team from one of the P5 had finished 8 or 9 with a losing record did who also didn't make it past their second round did. Why should a team that can't even win in their conference get in the dance?

Many P5 conference teams play soft schedules during the beginning of their season because they know that their play in conference will improve their SoS. Look at LSU, they had an SoS of 127 when they started conference play, the only teams that they played that were in the Massey Top 100, were Colorado who I believe was #14, Virginia #64, and Virginia Tech #16. The next highest teams they played in #116 Kent and #167 Louisiana. All of the other teams were Massey rated between 202 and 353. After they finished conference play to include the conference tournament they their SoS is 28. I can tell you right now that if Jackson State would have lost in their conference tournament they would not have been invited, even though they went undefeated in their conference regular season and that is just wrong. Teams that work hard in the regular season should be rewarded for their work no matter what conference they come from. I would rather see a team that did something great during their conference play than watch some team like Miami that couldn't win in their conference get in.
 
MSGRET said:
A couple of years ago it happened to the MAC, it's happened to the MW, I believe that it happened to the Ivy League. Almost every non P5 Conference at least once since the expanding to 64 now 68 teams has had it happen. I don't give a darn about metrics, some of those P5 conference teams refuse to play mid majors, so how is a mid major going to get a shot. I believe that South Dakota State was the regular season conference winner a few years ago and lost in the second round because one of their star players was sick. They didn't make it to the dance, but a team from one of the P5 had finished 8 or 9 with a losing record did who also didn't make it past their second round did. Why should a team that can't even win in their conference get in the dance?

Many P5 conference teams play soft schedules during the beginning of their season because they know that their play in conference will improve their SoS. Look at LSU, they had an SoS of 127 when they started conference play, the only teams that they played that were in the Massey Top 100, were Colorado who I believe was #14, Virginia #64, and Virginia Tech #16. The next highest teams they played in #116 Kent and #167 Louisiana. All of the other teams were Massey rated between 202 and 353. After they finished conference play to include the conference tournament they their SoS is 28. I can tell you right now that if Jackson State would have lost in their conference tournament they would not have been invited, even though they went undefeated in their conference regular season and that is just wrong. Teams that work hard in the regular season should be rewarded for their work no matter what conference they come from. I would rather see a team that did something great during their conference play than watch some team like Miami that couldn't win in their conference get in.
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It’s reward for the record… not for the efforts. Defeating a bunch of weaklings do not equal to working hard either.
 
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MSGRET said:
A couple of years ago it happened to the MAC, it's happened to the MW, I believe that it happened to the Ivy League. Almost every non P5 Conference at least once since the expanding to 64 now 68 teams has had it happen. I don't give a darn about metrics, some of those P5 conference teams refuse to play mid majors, so how is a mid major going to get a shot. I believe that South Dakota State was the regular season conference winner a few years ago and lost in the second round because one of their star players was sick. They didn't make it to the dance, but a team from one of the P5 had finished 8 or 9 with a losing record did who also didn't make it past their second round did. Why should a team that can't even win in their conference get in the dance?

Many P5 conference teams play soft schedules during the beginning of their season because they know that their play in conference will improve their SoS. Look at LSU, they had an SoS of 127 when they started conference play, the only teams that they played that were in the Massey Top 100, were Colorado who I believe was #14, Virginia #64, and Virginia Tech #16. The next highest teams they played in #116 Kent and #167 Louisiana. All of the other teams were Massey rated between 202 and 353. After they finished conference play to include the conference tournament they their SoS is 28. I can tell you right now that if Jackson State would have lost in their conference tournament they would not have been invited, even though they went undefeated in their conference regular season and that is just wrong. Teams that work hard in the regular season should be rewarded for their work no matter what conference they come from. I would rather see a team that did something great during their conference play than watch some team like Miami that couldn't win in their conference get in.
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Here is your initial claim:
MSGRET said:
You have a a lot of other conferences out there that if the conference regular season champion losses in the conference tournament they get left out, while some team that finishes 9th or has a losing conference record gets invited. I believe that the regular season conference champion should be rewarded for the body of work, before some team that finishes so low in the conference does. I also believe that the only way a team with a losing conference record should get in is they win the AQ by winning the conference tournament. Starting next year I believe that there will be only 31 conference bids. The NCAA always says they want to grow the game, well it doesn't sell well if they keep dishing the other 27 conferences after the P4 invitees start getting maybe 9 to 12 teams in the tournament.
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In your claim, in 2021-22 Toledo won the MAC regular season with 19-1 Conference record (29-6) but lost the conference Tournament to Buffalo. Toledo had the best NET of the MAC teams at #69. Their SoS was #136 and their only win over sub 100 ranked team was Buffalo at #45. In other words, their resume was TERRIBLE and they did not deserve an at-large bid. Go look at who they beat and tell me why they deserved a bid over? In the 2022 Tournament only Arkansas came in with a losing conference record at 7-9 (18-14 overall) and had the #10 SoS, and #34 NET and 8 wins over teams with sub-100 NET including #21 LSU. This resume is vastly superior to Toledo.

In my close examination of these bids since 2016 when I joined the BY, there have been very few on the bubble calls that could have gone either way but with the change to NET vs. RPI, I think the strength of teams is clearer and your argument has no credence.

I state my case again using facts that the committee is trying to get the best 36 teams into the tournament after the 32 automatic qualifiers. If you play in weak conference, win your regular season title and win your Conference Tournament otherwise play a tougher OOC and win games against these teams to show you deserve a bid. Your view is "hey let team who beat up the weaklings into the tournament even though they lost the conference automatic bid because they beat up the weaklings during the season". This makes no sense for the committee. They have already been inclusive by letting all 32 conferences get a bid even though by talent, 22 probably don't deserve it.
 
DefenseBB said:
I state my case again using facts that the committee is trying to get the best 36 teams into the tournament after the 32 automatic qualifiers.
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While I agree with the premise of your argument, what gets lost in the data is that some really good mid-majors have a weak SOS and NET for the simple fact that the P5 conference do not want to play them. So yes, some good mid-majors are left with playing whoever is willing to schedule them, which inflates their record and deflates their metrics. The metrics are not an accurate representation of the quality of their team.

Giving some sort of deference to ALL regular season conference champions rewards those teams who beat who was in front of them. No solution is perfect, but the David vs Goliath storyline (to me) is far more intriguing that watching a bunch of 18-14 power 5 schools who had all season to prove they didn't belong there.

Of course this line of reasoning is completely decimated by the NC State men's team this year :p
 
Plebe said:
Is there a punchline I'm missing? Hinkle Fieldhouse is in Indianapolis.
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I didn't get the reference either.

I am largely undecided about NCAA pandering to women, but at least the WBIT semis and final game are in the same location as the Men's NIT semis and final.
 
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