Waiting for Nelson's explanation

[ConnHuskBask]

Wichita State has a longer and, arguably, better, history than Butler. It has as many Final Fours, more E8s, and equal S16s.

That's ancient history though.

Butler, since 1997 has made the NCAA's 11 times and been to 4 sweet 16s, in addition to the title games.

WSU in that time span? 4 NCAA's and 2 Sweet 16s, including a final 4.

It's very hard to justify WSU or st Louis inclusion into these leagues when the the consistent NCAA success just isn't there.

All good programs and all teams I'd much rather face than who's in our league but their history, especially recent, is over blown.

 

[tzznandrew]

St. Louis too. They were competitive year in and year out before Butler became vogue.

Right. Their NCAA record is pretty terrible, but they performed very well in the NIT year in and year out when it mattered, winning it in 1948--at a point where it may have been a better tourney than the NCAAs.

But they don't have a S16 since 1957.

I think both could be good adds. And Dayton could make sense too.

 

[itgoeslike]

Right. Their NCAA record is pretty terrible, but they performed very well in the NIT year in and year out when it mattered, winning it in 1948--at a point where it may have been a better tourney than the NCAAs.

But they don't have a S16 since 1957.

I think both could be good adds. And Dayton could make sense too.

You're right on the above. But I think they help NBE RPI year in and year out and would be unlikely to take a nose dive like Butler did.

 

[tzznandrew]

That's ancient history though.

Butler, since 1997 has made the NCAA's 11 times and been to 4 sweet 16s, in addition to the title games.

WSU in that time span? 4 NCAA's and 2 Sweet 16s, including a final 4.

It's very hard to justify WSU or st Louis inclusion into these leagues when the the consistent NCAA success just isn't there.

All good programs and all teams I'd much rather face than who's in our league but their history, especially recent, is over blown.

Well, I was mostly trying to suggest they aren't a flash in the pan. While it is "ancient," both schools have deep history and strong fan-bases--and the fact that they have older successes, and still have some now, suggests they can probably hold their own and bring some value to the conference, as @itgoeslike suggests.

 

[zls44]

Would Donnie Jones or Stan Heath ever be a coach at a Big East school?

Well, Stan Heath was hired by a Big East school and led them to the second weekend, so...yes.

 

[gtcam]

Those schools in the NBE and any joining, better stay there because that's as good as it gets fot them - they will never get into a power conference, never.
The AAC is a good parking lot for those schools who got the raw deal or who want to upgrade their BBall program to prep for a power conference while building the football program.
To think that UConn goes indy on their football program is plain, well lack for better words, stupid and inane. Do you know how hard it is to get an independent football schedule together?
ND only had luck due to the history of it's program.
I don't buy the fact that the NBE will get better- I really think the lower tier teams will be having great trouble attracting the name players. That league will suffer without UCONN, Cuse, Lville, Pitt, W. Virginia.
Sure they have school name recognition in bball but those names may die a painful death without success. Gtown lost 3 highly sought recruits to power conference schools last year, and if there was the original BE, I doubt all 3 bolt.
The AAC is no picnic but to make a blanket statement that the NBE is a better place for UConn, to me, is a statement based on personal bias vs longterm vision.
To each their own
Let's go UCONN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[nadav]

Seton Hall, Depaul and St Johns would be lucky to have Stan Heath. We get it Nelson, the AAC lower half is garbage, but stop pretending that the NBE is the SEC Football of Basketball.

Purnell has 9 league wins in 4 years and they play in front of 4,000 people regularly. That won't get better without Uconn, Syracuse, Notre Dame, Louisville and Pitt coming to town every year. Seton Hall not firing Willard? They seem just as content to suck as the AAC schools you are taking to task.

You continue to throw around how much money they are making from the grand TV deal, and they did get paid, however they are getting killed with exposure and that was the chief reason that a coach left arguably the best job in the Big East for the worst in the ACC (or second worst).

Both leagues leave a lot to be desired, stop pretending the Big East is legit. Own the fact that the RPI you harped on all season was a bunch of crap. Nova went 16-2 in that league and I would say St Joe's was a tougher foe this weekend. Creighton was a fraud as well.

We need to get better, as a league, of jobbing the RPI like the NBE does.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

@tzznandrew I pretty much agree with what you're saying with regards to WSU and SLU being solid programs. I just don'tsee the value they'd bring into the big east by being another non north east team with somewhat sporadic success.

Both are very good programs though.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

St. Louis is the only non NBE team that is even remotely on the radar of that league, but I would not be surprised if Jim Crews is a major obstacle. I don't see the NBE adding Wichita State. I think they would add a New England school in a heartbeat if there was a reasonable candidate (BU?). The NBE didn't add VCU despite VCU having a better market than Wichita and also being adjacent to current NBE markets.

A couple of things to remember with the NBE. They are just getting real money for the first time. They were probably getting $2-2.5MM a year in the Big East. Now they are getting about $5 million. Do you think Marquette is sweating finding a replacement for Williams?

http://www.newsleader.com/article/20140321/SPORTS/303210035/Va-Tech-hires-Marquette-s-Buzz-Williams

According to that article, they were paying Williams $2.8MM/year, and that was before the Fox contract kicked in. The big city teams have revenue sources that even a major state school located in a remote area does not. Ever watch a Big 12 or SEC game on a weekday? There are a lot of empty seats, and many of the fans that are there are students paying $5 or $10. Marquette and draw 15k for a Tuesday night game, and most of them are paying full freight. That is why filling the stadium is so important to NBE teams, and why many P5 schools simply won't pay up for coaches. Nobody at many of those schools cares.

The AAC can not compete with that. UConn can afford to pay Ollie down the road because UConn is a relatively rich university and knows it has to keep basketball competitive for reasons beyond just the athletic department. Do you think many people at UCF or USF really care how good the hoops program is? How do those schools pay for a big time coach when they are drawing a few thousand fans and are basically giving their broadcast rights away to ESPN for free?

 

[nadav]

Nelson, schools like UCF and USF have lots of money at their disposal, it comes from tax payers. Looking at the facilities at UCF for instance. Nova, without the taxpayers money, has been playing in a glorified High School Gym for 25 years. I think you've got the revenue issue twister a little bit.

Marquette clearly does bring in revenue, I agree. But they draw twice as many fans per game as Seton Hall and Depaul. This TV deal doesn't mean they have an extra 3 mil lying around it just means they have to ask the school for less institutional support to balance the books.

 

[stick]

St. Louis is the only non NBE team that is even remotely on the radar of that league, but I would not be surprised if Jim Crews is a major obstacle. I don't see the NBE adding Wichita State. I think they would add a New England school in a heartbeat if there was a reasonable candidate (BU?). The NBE didn't add VCU despite VCU having a better market than Wichita and also being adjacent to current NBE markets.

A couple of things to remember with the NBE. They are just getting real money for the first time. They were probably getting $2-2.5MM a year in the Big East. Now they are getting about $5 million. Do you think Marquette is sweating finding a replacement for Williams?

http://www.newsleader.com/article/20140321/SPORTS/303210035/Va-Tech-hires-Marquette-s-Buzz-Williams

According to that article, they were paying Williams $2.8MM/year, and that was before the Fox contract kicked in. The big city teams have revenue sources that even a major state school located in a remote area does not. Ever watch a Big 12 or SEC game on a weekday? There are a lot of empty seats, and many of the fans that are there are students paying $5 or $10. Marquette and draw 15k for a Tuesday night game, and most of them are paying full freight. That is why filling the stadium is so important to NBE teams, and why many P5 schools simply won't pay up for coaches. Nobody at many of those schools cares.

The AAC can not compete with that. UConn can afford to pay Ollie down the road because UConn is a relatively rich university and knows it has to keep basketball competitive for reasons beyond just the athletic department. Do you think many people at UCF or USF really care how good the hoops program is? How do those schools pay for a big time coach when they are drawing a few thousand fans and are basically giving their broadcast rights away to ESPN for free?

Williams got a bonus that kicked in to get him to that figure. He might have been due a similar figure for another year, but the guy has been pursuing jobs for the past few years even when he had a rolling extension.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Seton Hall, Depaul and St Johns would be lucky to have Stan Heath. We get it Nelson, the AAC lower half is garbage, but stop pretending that the NBE is the SEC Football of Basketball.

Purnell has 9 league wins in 4 years and they play in front of 4,000 people regularly. That won't get better without Uconn, Syracuse, Notre Dame, Louisville and Pitt coming to town every year. Seton Hall not firing Willard? They seem just as content to suck as the AAC schools you are taking to task.

You continue to throw around how much money they are making from the grand TV deal, and they did get paid, however they are getting killed with exposure and that was the chief reason that a coach left arguably the best job in the Big East for the worst in the ACC (or second worst).

Both leagues leave a lot to be desired, stop pretending the Big East is legit. Own the fact that the RPI you harped on all season was a bunch of crap. Nova went 16-2 in that league and I would say St Joe's was a tougher foe this weekend. Creighton was a fraud as well.

We need to get better, as a league, of jobbing the RPI like the NBE does.

Purnell was pulled out of Clemson to go to Depaul.

The NBE does not "job" the RPI. It wins games while the AAC schools do not. Look at some of the teams that USF and UCF lost to (Detroit, Valpo, Florida Atlantic, Santa Clara).

Williams left Marquette because a school that pays its coach $3MM a year expects more.

Next year's AAC, outside of UConn, has 3 teams that even made the tournament, and 2 of those lost their first game, with the third getting blown out in its' second game. If Creighton is a fraud, them Memphis is a fraud. Can't have it both ways.

The Big East gets more money, and has a media partner that isn't trying to destroy it. ESPN HATES the AAC and is damaging UConn every chance it gets. I can come up with a reason, as can the rest of us, but we can not deny it is happening. The exposure argument is absurd when there were 3 UConn football games that were only available on the Internet. Think about that. Who is to say Fox wouldn't give us 2 or 3 national games a year as a football Independent if we signed with the Big East for hoops? It can't be any worse than it is now for football.

And if you ever wanted to force ESPN to write the ACC a check to cover us, the way to do it is to threaten to leave for Fox. Why would ESPN pay a nickel more for us now if we aren't going anywhere?

 

[stick]

Seton Hall, Depaul and St Johns would be lucky to have Stan Heath. We get it Nelson, the AAC lower half is garbage, but stop pretending that the NBE is the SEC Football of Basketball.

Purnell has 9 league wins in 4 years and they play in front of 4,000 people regularly. That won't get better without Uconn, Syracuse, Notre Dame, Louisville and Pitt coming to town every year. Seton Hall not firing Willard? They seem just as content to suck as the AAC schools you are taking to task.

You continue to throw around how much money they are making from the grand TV deal, and they did get paid, however they are getting killed with exposure and that was the chief reason that a coach left arguably the best job in the Big East for the worst in the ACC (or second worst).

Both leagues leave a lot to be desired, stop pretending the Big East is legit. Own the fact that the RPI you harped on all season was a bunch of crap. Nova went 16-2 in that league and I would say St Joe's was a tougher foe this weekend. Creighton was a fraud as well.

We need to get better, as a league, of jobbing the RPI like the NBE does.

Willard & Purnell are both better coaches than Heath. Also, Willard is recruiting very well esp. for Seton Hall. We'll see if it translates to wins for Seton Hall, but if it does he's not staying there long.

 

[tzznandrew]

Next year's AAC, outside of UConn, has 3 teams that even made the tournament, and 2 of those lost their first game, with the third getting blown out in its' second game. If Creighton is a fraud, them Memphis is a fraud. Can't have it both ways.

It's not having it both ways. Memphis was an 8 seed, who beat a good GW, and then lost to a #1 seed in a hostile environment.

Creighton was a protected 3 seed, who beat a weak team in the first round and then got its doors blown in by a 6 seed.

Memphis over-performed, according to seed.
Creighton under-performed.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

It's not having it both ways. Memphis was an 8 seed, who beat a good GW, and then lost to a #1 seed in a hostile environment.

Creighton was a protected 3 seed, who beat a weak team in the first round and then got its doors blown in by a 6 seed.

Memphis over-performed, according to seed.
Creighton under-performed.

We are grading the second best program in the AAC on a curve now? Is that what it has come to?

I didn't see all this excuse mongering when this board was pretty ruthless on Cooley Friday night for blowing the game against UNC. Providence was just as good as UNC, at least for that night, and Cooley just blew it. No excuses.

Memphis has been recruiting at a high level for years, so getting seeded 8th is not an excuse for losing to a team like Virginia.

 

[tzznandrew]

We are grading the second best program in the AAC on a curve now? Is that what it has come to?

I didn't see all this excuse mongering when this board was pretty ruthless on Cooley Friday night for blowing the game against UNC. Providence was just as good as UNC, at least for that night, and Cooley just blew it. No excuses.

Memphis has been recruiting at a high level for years, so getting seeded 8th is not an excuse for losing to a team like Virginia.

????

They were the 4th or 5th best team in the AAC, and they got an 8th seed. They won a game, and then lost to a really good 1 seed--a team you seem to think should have been seeded 9th or something. So what that they have a bunch of high level recruits...they were a good, not great team this year. Virginia was clearly better by both the eye test, and by resume. To think that they should have beaten them...not could have, should have...is insane.

The board was ruthless with PC and Cooley for two reasons: 1. PC fans are always here, so it was a jab at them; 2. Cooley should have won that game, and we were all in amazement that they blew it.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Memphis has been recruiting at a high level for years, so getting seeded 8th is not an excuse for losing to a team like Virginia.

I can't wrap my head around the point you're trying to make with this. What does "a team like Virginia" mean?

 

[nadav]

I was trying to have a serious conversation and you pull out some bullocks about independence in Football! and Fox. Good grief. My time isn't terribly valuable, but its gotta be better than this.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I was trying to have a serious conversation and you pull out some bullocks about independence in Football! and Fox. Good grief. My time isn't terribly valuable, but its gotta be better than this.

The AAC apologists continually make the argument that staying in this crappy league is necessary for football. I suspect if I went through your posting history, I would see something similar. My point is that whether you are a football or basketball first fan, getting out of this league should be a priority.

As to your point about UCF and USF rolling in state money, I don't think there is a public school in the country that has not had its subsidies from the state cut back in the last 5 years. Places like UCF and USF are scrambling for cash just to maintain the status quo. They aren't going to pour money into their basketball programs that no one cares about. That is how Stan Heath and Donnie Jones were their coaches in the first place.

 

[nadav]

Stan Heath took Arkansas to two straight NCAA tournaments before he got to USF, and had coached Kent State to an Elite Eight. Stop talking about him like he is some guy who has never done anything like Willard. Seton Hall hired a guy with a .500 career MAAC record.

Let me know next time a school in the NBE lays out 50-100 million to improve their facilities. Because SMU, USF, Cinci, Houston, Tulane and UCF have all done so recently.

 

[businesslawyer]

I don't understand the point of the thread. Anyone who has spent more than ten seconds on the Boneyard presumably recognizes that nelson is not going to say he was wrong about something. You might as well be arguing with Ted Cruz over the benefits of the Affordable Health Care Act.

 

[tzznandrew]

I don't understand the point of the thread. Anyone who has spent more than ten seconds on the Boneyard presumably recognizes that nelson is not going to say he was wrong about something. You might as well be arguing with Ted Cruz over the benefits of the Affordable Health Care Act.

Touché.

 

[Husky25]

Desire to get out of the conference and saying the only viable option is Football independence and a lower mid-major for all other sports are mutually exclusive. Football independence puts a ceiling on any possible positive movement.

UConn Football was on ESPN3 last year because that is what the existing contract called for. UConn wasn't a very good program with a 3-9 record and my understanding is that a new contract kicks in next fall that precludes ESPN3 games for the AAC.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I don't understand the point of the thread. Anyone who has spent more than ten seconds on the Boneyard presumably recognizes that nelson is going to say he was wrong about something. You might as well be arguing with Ted Cruz over the benefits of the Affordable Health Care Act.

Old lawyer tactic to say someone is unreasonable because they never admit they are wrong. That gives me the option of a) admitting I am wrong or b) being "unreasonable". Instead, I would invite You to review my track record. My positions are data driven, and I an right a lot more than I am wrong. A better political analogy is Nate Silver. I will admit I am biased, but I go off analysis, not opinion, and I am usually right. My bubble teams thread is a good example.

 

[businesslawyer]

Old lawyer tactic to say someone is unreasonable because they never admit they are wrong. That gives me the option of a) admitting I am wrong or b) being "unreasonable". Instead, I would invite You to review my track record. My positions are data driven, and I an right a lot more than I am wrong. A better political analogy is Nate Silver. I will admit I am biased, but I go off analysis, not opinion, and I am usually right. My bubble teams thread is a good example.

Not surprisingly, you are not getting my point. I did not say you were either right or wrong. My point -- which is indisputable -- is that there was no point in the thread because not once in the history of the board have you simply admitted to being wrong.

Plus, I thought the healthcare reference would soften it for you.

 

[gtcam]

Memphis has been recruiting at a high level for years, so getting seeded 8th is not an excuse for losing to a team like Virginia.

What an absurd statement
Nelson - you make some good points but you get too carried away with comparatives at times
Virginia is a solid team

 

[itgoeslike]

A couple of things to remember with the NBE. They are just getting real money for the first time. They were probably getting $2-2.5MM a year in the Big East. Now they are getting about $5 million.

You perpetually exaggerate the NBE deal. The most generous estimates peg the deal at $500M over 12 years. That amount could include headroom for adding two additional teams. But let's assume that it doesn't, it works out to annual take of $41.67M per year when applied evenly over the term of the contract (or $4.167M a year, per school). However, it's a virtual certainty that this deal backloads payments. If I had to guess, NBE teams are taking home between $3.2-$3.6M a year to get things started, which, is about $1-1.5M more than the AAC TV contract. Then, consider that the ACC gets to renegotiate their deal in 2019 dollars, 6 years before the NBE contract ends. Over the long term, the delta of the NBE payout is negligible and irrelevant. Meanwhile, the AAC gets real guaranteed, exposure and all the spoils of CR. UConn will be pocketing an additional $5-$6M annually in exit fees and NCAA credits alone. At least for the next 3-4 years, it would be nonsensical (dopey) to join the NBE for financial reasons.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

You perpetually exaggerate the NBE deal. The most generous estimates peg the deal at $500M over 12 years. That amount could include headroom for adding two additional teams. But let's assume that it doesn't, it works out to annual take of $41.67M per year when applied evenly over the term of the contract (or $4.167M a year, per school). However, it's a virtual certainty that this deal backloads payments. If I had to guess, NBE teams are taking home between $3.2-$3.6M a year to get things started, which, is about $1-1.5M more than the AAC TV contract. Then, consider that the ACC gets to renegotiate their deal in 2019 dollars, 6 years before the NBE contract ends. Over the long term, the delta of the NBE payout is negligible and irrelevant. Meanwhile, the AAC gets real guaranteed, exposure and all the spoils of CR. UConn will be pocketing an additional $5-$6M annually in exit fees and NCAA credits alone. At least for the next 3-4 years, it would be nonsensical (dopey) to join the NBE for financial reasons.

Apparently itgoeslike has better sources than the Washington Post, which pegs it at $600MM over 12 years.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...0d341c-90ea-11e2-bdea-e32ad90da239_story.html

I bet our deal is back-end loaded too, which means that each AAC school is probably getting less than $2MM for all sports while Depaul is getting $4-5MM for basketball alone.

The reason I argue is because the blind, ignorant hatred of a league that did nothing to harm UConn leads to exaggerated posts like the one itgoeslike made above. If anyone on this board would just look at it rationally, then we would not have 50 post threads of me repeating the obvious to a pack of braying donkeys.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Not surprisingly, you are not getting my point. I did not say you were either right or wrong. My point -- which is indisputable -- is that there was no point in the thread because not once in the history of the board have you simply admitted to being wrong.

Plus, I thought the healthcare reference would soften it for you.

It is interesting that you doubled down on the "indisputable point" that this thread, which was started by a poster calling me out personally, is pointless because I am wrong so any defense of the personal attack on me shows I am being unreasonable. Got it.

 

[itgoeslike]

Apparently itgoeslike has better sources than the Washington Post, which pegs it at $600MM over 12 years.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...0d341c-90ea-11e2-bdea-e32ad90da239_story.html

I bet our deal is back-end loaded too, which means that each AAC school is probably getting less than $2MM for all sports while Depaul is getting $4-5MM for basketball alone.

The reason I argue is because the blind, ignorant hatred of a league that did nothing to harm UConn leads to exaggerated posts like the one itgoeslike made above. If anyone on this board would just look at it rationally, then we would not have 50 post threads of me repeating the obvious to a pack of braying donkeys.

Wrong. . . Again. The deal is worth exactly what I posted. The $600M figure is if they invite two more teams, which still yields exactly what I posted. I invite readers to review the links below that detail the valuation of the deal from the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, USA Today and wait for it. . . Fox Sports.

"The new Big East launched as a 10-member league Wednesday with the additions of Butler, Creighton andXavier and a 12-year deal with Fox. The agreement is worth about $500 million with the possibility of increasing to $600 million were the league to add more members, according to a person with knowledge of the details." --Fox Sports

"Fox won them over with a 12-year deal worth about $500 million, according to reports. But the contract could spike to $600 million if the conference grows to a dozen teams" --New York Times

The deal between the network and what is expected to be a 10-team Big East conference is valued at $500 million over the next 12 years. . .if the conference can add two more members, the value will approach $600 million. --The Wall Street Journal

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/12/s...rts-and-new-big-east-are-teaming-up.html?_r=0
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323415304578370854094331488
http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/butler-creighton-xavier-join-big-east-032013
http://awfulannouncing.com/2013/details-on-fox-s-deal-with-the-new-big-east.html
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...r-butler-creighton-signs-tv-contract/2002227/
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-bas...-schools-working-lucrative-tv-deal-basketball

I don't have problem with the NBE and believe that the Fox deal was their best and only option. Go back and read my posts. I do have a problem with posters who actively look to undermine UConn, which is what your agenda appears to be.