Villanova Post Game Thread

[Viet Vet]

I wanted to sleep on it before making this post.

Last night's game made me angry, not as a UConn fan, but as a basketball fan. I thought the Huskies played ok and ground out a decent, unremarkable win over an average Villanova team. The part that made me angry, and still has me angry the next day, was the absolutely horrible officiating. I don't think the officiating was particularly biased, it was just terrible. So terrible, that if I were the Big East I would not have those refs work a league game again until they prove they know the rules. They can call NEC or high school games if they want practice.

I think basketball is the greatest sport ever invented, but its Achilles Heel is officiating. Basketball is as dependent on good officiating as any sport, because, among other reasons, the officials can actually create scoring in basketball. Soccer is the only other major sport where that can happen. The officials make a dozen decisions every possession that impact the flow and often the outcome of the game. And when they are making consistently bad calls, they can make the game unwatchable, and at lower levels, unplayable. Last night was one of those games.

I do not advocate for officials letting them play or calling it tight. I simply want them to make the right call, and know the rules. When Villanova players are constantly flailing or fishing for fouls, the referees should either not call anything or call offensive fouls, because that is how the rules are written. Don't call some outdated foul off a flop during shooting when both the NBA and NCAA have specifically instructed officials not to reward players for doing that. Villanova, and to some extent UConn, were flopping all game. Hawkins got rewarding for flopping on a made 3, and then Villanova got a similar call about a minute later. Both calls were bad, and led to the players crashing to the ground after half the shots the rest of the way.

The refs should call 5 seconds closely guarded when Dixon takes 10 seconds backing a defender down to the paint from the 3 point line. The NCAA does not distinguish between back to the basket and facing up like the NBA does with the closely-guarded rule. On top of that, backing down, especially like Dixon was doing, is an offensive foul at every level of basketball, and the defender does not need to flop to get that call, despite the fact that the officials last night only called the offensive foul if the defender flopped. That is just lazy, stupid officiating.

Finally, call the freaking clear path foul like it is written. Officials make that call about 20% of the times they should make it. The point of that foul is so players will stop grabbing opponents on breakaways. If that foul is called correctly, there will be fewer free throws and more dunks. Who doesn't want that? Refs choke on this call all the time because they are afraid of giving a team 2 shots and the ball. Make the freaking call. Whitmore should have been called on one last night.

The NBA, NCAA and even high schools have implemented these adjustments and issued guidance over the last few years to make basketball more free-flowing, exciting, and fun. Yesterday's game was a 1990's rock fight. It was hard to watch, mostly because of the officials. If you want to know one reason why a free flowing, fun game like basketball does so much worse than football in the ratings, look at last night's game. Any casual fan that tried to watch that UConn/Villanova game would turn it off. It was just brutal. Compare that to the St. Johns/Xavier game which was much better officiated, and a lot more entertaining to the casual viewer even though Xavier was up 10+ points most of the game.

I never want to see that officiating crew again. They just suck.

No, the refs should not call 5 seconds closely guarded when Dixon takes 10 seconds backing a defender down to the point. The closely guarded rule ONLY APPLIES TO A PLAYER HOLDING THE BALL, not while dribbling. It USED to apply to dribblers also, but was changed in 2015. Perhaps you should learn the rules prior to enlightening us with your expertise.

 

[Umami Zen]

He was possibly a second rounder before the injury and the chance of that would go down if he returned as a senior.

SJ.. I specifically used the word "trending" instead of "being".. It is an opinion and obviously speculative--Partially influenced by what some experts have said. I am not an expert. I am a casual UConn fan.. Not going to die on this hill.

Much more interested in UConn BB rather than getting busted on your interpretation of my usage of the English language based on what I heard on the tube.

Lighten up and enjoy the game tomorrow and your New Year's Weekend.. Our team is 14-0.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

No, the refs should not call 5 seconds closely guarded when Dixon takes 10 seconds backing a defender down to the point. The closely guarded rule ONLY APPLIES TO A PLAYER HOLDING THE BALL, not while dribbling. It USED to apply to dribblers also, but was changed in 2015. Perhaps you should learn the rules prior to enlightening us with your expertise.

We have already covered this point. Perhaps you should read the thread before picking two sentences out of a post to blast me. You have to be a little quicker with your driveby's next time.

Immediately after the point about closely guarded, I point out that backing a player down is an offensive foul at every single level of basketball. It is specifically cited in the NCAA rulebook.

Posters like you are the problem with this board. You don't add anything, you just attack other posters who do.

 

[MTBingNinja]

UConn -6.5

 

[superjohn]

SJ.. I specifically used the word "trending" instead of "being".. It is an opinion and obviously speculative--Partially influenced by what some experts have said. I am not an expert. I am a casual UConn fan.. Not going to die on this hill.

Much more interested in UConn BB rather than getting busted on your interpretation of my usage of the English language based on what I heard on the tube.

Lighten up and enjoy the game tomorrow and your New Year's Weekend.. Our team is 14-0.

I follow this stuff and he wasn't trending as a lottery pick. I was just setting the record straight.

I'm loving the team and the holidays, you do the same!

 

[freshler40]

Nova likes to play 5 out and leave the lane empty to have their guys drive on their defenders with little or no help coming. They used that several times with good success.

The famous Nova back-down offense was used to answer our hoops on a regular basis. Our matchups did a good job of negating this move but it still worked well for Nova. Don't know why we didn't double team once in a while as this was happening. Other teams do against Santogo and it created turnovers.

 

[Get a Job]

We have already covered this point. Perhaps you should read the thread before picking two sentences out of a post to blast me. You have to be a little quicker with your driveby's next time.

Immediately after the point about closely guarded, I point out that backing a player down is an offensive foul at every single level of basketball. It is specifically cited in the NCAA rulebook.

Posters like you are the problem with this board. You don't add anything, you just attack other posters who do.

What language is used to prohibit backing a player down? (I'm not arguing or challenging. I'm genuinely curious, as I'd never heard before that it's illegal.)

 

[Viet Vet]

We have already covered this point. Perhaps you should read the thread before picking two sentences out of a post to blast me. You have to be a little quicker with your driveby's next time.

Immediately after the point about closely guarded, I point out that backing a player down is an offensive foul at every single level of basketball. It is specifically cited in the NCAA rulebook.

Posters like you are the problem with this board. You don't add anything, you just attack other posters who do.

Actually, I agree with your point about backing down, which I did not challenge. Nor did I challenge any part of your thread other than the five second rule.

 

[Palatine]

The famous Nova back-down offense was used to answer our hoops on a regular basis. Our matchups did a good job of negating this move but it still worked well for Nova. Don't know why we didn't double team once in a while as this was happening. Other teams do against Santogo and it created turnovers.

We didn't use double teams because Hurley thought it was more important to cover the three point line. Thta's why our guys were left alone. That's why Sanogo was left alone all game versus Dixon. Double teaming a guard backing down to the lane would likely result in a pass out to the perimeter and an open three.

Hurley much prefers a contested two to an open three. Hence no double team. And even on a poor shooting night for the Huskies, it lead to a 9 point win.

 

[Chuck]

What language is used to prohibit backing a player down? (I'm not arguing or challenging. I'm genuinely curious, as I'd never heard before that it's illegal.)

For me, the back down is a charge. I assume that's what we are referring to here, not some special rule. But the only way it ever gets called is with the defender exaggerating the hit. I wouldn't call that a flop, because it really is a charge. But the defender shouldn't have to go flying across the floor for a foul to be called. It just leads to more fake flops. It's a bit like soccer. Guys dive (partially) because they often won't get a call if they don't go down.

Villanova guys just slam into the defender over and over until they get within a few feet of the rim where they can make a shot or get fouled. It's often worse with bigger guards than centers. I think Caleb Daniels is great. Total warrior. But he shouldn't be allowed to just literally push his way into the restricted area.

Sanogo does the back down sometimes, but it's not really his game with his footwork. I think he'd be fine with that called a bit closer.

It does seem like Hurley's D is a bit susceptible to the back down. He doesn't seem to like to double, even when someone is taking advantage of a mismatch. Seton Hall did it with Richmond last year, Villanova did it, and I think a couple teams have done it against Karaban when he's undersized. So, while I think it should be a foul, I also think we should do a better job defending it. But @Palatine may be right about the reason, and that may be a good decision in the end.

 

[Get a Job]

For me, the back down is a charge. I assume that's what we are referring to here, not some special rule. But the only way it ever gets called is with the defender exaggerating the hit. I wouldn't call that a flop, because it really is a charge. But the defender shouldn't have to go flying across the floor for a foul to be called. It just leads to more fake flops. It's a bit like soccer. Guys dive (partially) because they often won't get a call if they don't go down.

Villanova guys just slam into the defender over and over until they get within a few feet of the rim where they can make a shot or get fouled. It's often worse with bigger guards than centers. I think Caleb Daniels is great. Total warrior. But he shouldn't be allowed to just literally push his way into the restricted area.

Sanogo does the back down sometimes, but it's not really his game with his footwork. I think he'd be fine with that called a bit closer.

It does seem like Hurley's D is a bit susceptible to the back down. He doesn't seem to like to double, even when someone is taking advantage of a mismatch. Seton Hall did it with Richmond last year, Villanova did it, and I think a couple teams have done it against Karaban when he's undersized. So, while I think it should be a foul, I also think we should do a better job defending it. But @Palatine may be right about the reason, and that may be a good decision in the end.

I guess my question, then, is what is a charge? To answer my own question, my understanding is that a charge is when the offensive player initiates contact with a defender that has established legal defensive position. Thinking of it that way, I totally see where you and @nelsonmuntz are coming from. It's interesting. I wonder why it's never/almost never called unless the defender falls.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Flagrant personal fouls. Flagrant fouls are personal fouls that are deemed to be a more serious offense than a common foul. The penalty for a flagrant 1 foul is two free throws and possession of the ball for a throw-in. The penalty for a flagrant 2 foul is two free throws, possession of the ball for a throw-in, and ejection of the offending player.

1. Flagrant 1 personal foul. A flagrant 1 personal foul is a personal foul that is deemed excessive in nature (unwarranted or too much) and/or unnecessary (avoidable, uncalled for or not required by the circumstances of the play), but is not based solely on the severity of the act. Examples include, but are not limited to: a) Causing excessive or unnecessary contact with an opponent; b) Contact with an opponent that is not a legitimate attempt to play the ball or player; c) Pushing or holding a player from behind to prevent a score. Depending on the severity of the contact and the potential for injury, this type of foul could rise to the level of a flagrant 2 foul; d) Fouling a player clearly away from the ball who is not directly involved with the play, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting;

That is from the rulebook. They don't use the word "clear path", but the officials are clearly authorized to charge a Flagrant 1 foul if a defender grabs or pushes a player from behind simply to prevent a score, which Whitmore did last night in the second half. This foul is not called nearly enough.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Art. 5. The following principles apply to post play and constitute fouls when violated: a. Neither the offense nor defense may dislodge an opponent during post play by pushing, backing into, or using a leg, knee or arm to move an opponent from a legally established position

This is from Page 93.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

For me, the back down is a charge. I assume that's what we are referring to here, not some special rule. But the only way it ever gets called is with the defender exaggerating the hit. I wouldn't call that a flop, because it really is a charge. But the defender shouldn't have to go flying across the floor for a foul to be called. It just leads to more fake flops. It's a bit like soccer. Guys dive (partially) because they often won't get a call if they don't go down.

Villanova guys just slam into the defender over and over until they get within a few feet of the rim where they can make a shot or get fouled. It's often worse with bigger guards than centers. I think Caleb Daniels is great. Total warrior. But he shouldn't be allowed to just literally push his way into the restricted area.

Sanogo does the back down sometimes, but it's not really his game with his footwork. I think he'd be fine with that called a bit closer.

It does seem like Hurley's D is a bit susceptible to the back down. He doesn't seem to like to double, even when someone is taking advantage of a mismatch. Seton Hall did it with Richmond last year, Villanova did it, and I think a couple teams have done it against Karaban when he's undersized. So, while I think it should be a foul, I also think we should do a better job defending it. But @Palatine may be right about the reason, and that may be a good decision in the end.

A good crew would have called those back downs early and put an end to it.

St. Johns is a very tough team to officiate because they clutch and grab on defense and go flying into the paint on offense, often out of control. I thought the crew at the Xavier/St. Johns game did a great job officiating a team that plays a challenging style of basketball.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

This is from Page 93.

The judgement is in defining “dislodge”. IMO, contact which the defender reacts to by moving their feet and establishing a deeper guarding position is not automatically a dislodge. Sanogo for example rarely dislodges anyone. He uses the backdown to get the player a little off balance and then uses his footwork to get a good look. There’s a lot of gray area and Nova definitely pushes the line a bit.

 

[David 76]

Nova's D is considerably better than that of an LIU or Delaware State.

I will remind you that we played some really good teams in our first 10-11 games. You are turd picking and insinuating that was the whole run.