Upstater

[Duncan Idaho]

Admire your persistance over all these threads. Must be like attempting to stomp out a lot of little grass patch fires before they turn into one big emotional brush fire.

 

[mattp]

i feel bad for him b/c a lot of people are attacking him as if he's condoning this, when he's really just trying to set the facts straight, which isn't always easy when dealing with an emotional topic. he's become the Boneyard's official PSU pinata

 

[upstater]

i feel bad for him b/c a lot of people are attacking him as if he's condoning this, when he's really just trying to set the facts straight, which isn't always easy when dealing with an emotional topic. he's become the Boneyard's official PSU pinata

That's been my position for years.

I really like Paterno (for the obvious reasons) and I agree that he let everyone down and deserved to lose his job. The truth is, though, that if Joe hadn't opened his mouth recently about fondling and beat Nebraska, I would have been a little more open to waiting things out because there is so much that stinks to high heaven here from the law enforcement perspective. In several months, I would not at all be surprised to find out there are elements to this story that implicate law enforcement in the cover-up, but given what Joe has already said, he will never be absolved. I think Joe is addled, and I trust that his sons know his mindset best, and therefore tried to portray what it might have been at the time he made his decisions. It's hard to fathom that two sons, a lawyer and a candidate for congress, could be so backward and tone-deaf, but there you go. Joe and his sons really did the old man in with their words.

 

[HuskyNan]

I appreciate that upstater can state his position without resorting to name-calling or dismissing the outrage people feel.

 

[upstater]

Thanks Nan. I am outraged too. I'm a parent as well, 2 small children--though I don't think you need to be a parent to get it.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

Upstater has done what a lot of us have failed to do. And that is to analyze the situation without jumping to conclusions and making statements based on emotion. I give him a lot of credit for that.

He reacted as a level headed PSU fan should have. I have a lot of respect for that.

 

[Kgun7]

Upstater has done what a lot of us have failed to do. And that is to analyze the situation without jumping to conclusions and making statements based on emotion. I give him a lot of credit for that.

He reacted as a level headed PSU fan should have. I have a lot of respect for that.

I agree 100% with that statemet. However, with all the questionable decision making and behavior involving the campus and community surrounding these tragic events, "a level headed PSU fan" is not exactly who I would look to for analysis and objectivity.

 

[BlueMAB]

Upstater has been more objective than anyone criticizing him.

Joe Pa deserved to lose his job, so did their president, and the many more that will lose their jobs probably deserve it too. Joe Pa, IMO, even deserves to do some time.

However, there is much more to this story. This investigation has been going on for over a decade, and suddenly after breaking the all time wins record, now the hits the fan? The timing suggests Joe Pa and PSU weren't the only ones complicit in this.

 

[upstater]

However, there is much more to this story. This investigation has been going on for over a decade, and suddenly after breaking the all time wins record, now the hits the fan? The timing suggests Joe Pa and PSU weren't the only ones complicit in this.

Is it coincidental however?

The all-time wins record, by the way, is a questionable feat since it's not the all-time college wins record, just D1. But even then, it's questionable to how one can weigh pre-D1 games against post-D1 games. I don't think it's a big deal, nor was there much attention and fanfare to it, certainly not as much as breaking Bear Bryant's record.

But, the NY Times indicated that the Grand Jury report was released prematurely. That it was never intended to be released. Someone in the AG's office actually leaked it. To a degree, one might say it's curious they leaked it AFTER Paterno passed Robinson, but it shouldn't have been leaked at all.

 

[cryjeremiah]

Innocent until proven guilty. Modern American media has slaughtered that concept.

I also respect and appreciate upstater's opinions.

 

[Dove]

I appreciate that upstater can state his position without resorting to name-calling or dismissing the outrage people feel.

Me, too.

 

[BlueMAB]

Is it coincidental however?

The all-time wins record, by the way, is a questionable feat since it's not the all-time college wins record, just D1. But even then, it's questionable to how one can weigh pre-D1 games against post-D1 games. I don't think it's a big deal, nor was there much attention and fanfare to it, certainly not as much as breaking Bear Bryant's record.

But, the NY Times indicated that the Grand Jury report was released prematurely. That it was never intended to be released. Someone in the AG's office actually leaked it. To a degree, one might say it's curious they leaked it AFTER Paterno passed Robinson, but it shouldn't have been leaked at all.

I don't believe it to be coincidental, but you know more about it than I.

 

[BlueMAB]

Innocent until proven guilty. Modern American media has slaughtered that concept.

I also respect and appreciate upstater's opinions.

All are still innocent until guilty in the court of law.

Nobody is innocent until proven guilty in the court of public opinion. That's been an issue as long as there's been media, nothing modern about that phenomenon.

 

[upstater]

I don't believe it to be coincidental, but you know more about it than I.

Not really. I just read the NY Times report which said there was an unauthorized leak of the grand jury report. That implied to me that it was to be released much later.

 

[BlueMAB]

Not really. I just read the NY Times report which said there was an unauthorized leak of the grand jury report. That implied to me that it was to be released much later.

If you read the NY Times report, than you know more about it than I.

It's obvious PSU was covering this up, and I think the DA's office has been complicit as well, I'm just not sure if they were ordered to look the other way by higher ups, or if they did it on their own. This is all my own speculation, I haven't read all of the details, etc.

 

[cryjeremiah]

All are still innocent until guilty in the court of law.

Nobody is innocent until proven guilty in the court of public opinion. That's been an issue as long as there's been media, nothing modern about that phenomenon.

You are probably right about it not just being a modern thing. I guess you could use the Salem witch trials as an example, lol.

 

[businesslawyer]

Little known fact -- they hung witches in Fairfield, Connecticut, as well as in Salem. At a pond no longer there between Independence Hall and the beach.

 

[Carl Spackler]

That's been my position for years.

I really like Paterno (for the obvious reasons) and I agree that he let everyone down and deserved to lose his job. The truth is, though, that if Joe hadn't opened his mouth recently about fondling and beat Nebraska, I would have been a little more open to waiting things out because there is so much that stinks to high heaven here from the law enforcement perspective. In several months, I would not at all be surprised to find out there are elements to this story that implicate law enforcement in the cover-up, but given what Joe has already said, he will never be absolved. I think Joe is addled, and I trust that his sons know his mindset best, and therefore tried to portray what it might have been at the time he made his decisions. It's hard to fathom that two sons, a lawyer and a candidate for congress, could be so backward and tone-deaf, but there you go. Joe and his sons really did the old man in with their words.

It's my understanding that upstater is a higher academic type. In my experience, in higher education/research type stuff - one of the most important things in being a good investigator, seeker of knowledge, is that when you start using things like the scientific method of discovery, and similar thought processes to understand your world around you, you absolutely must develop the discipline to be willing to reject literally, a lifetime of thought processes and understanding and beliefs about a subject, if the evidence you discover is strong enough, and is contrary to what you've spent a lifetime developing an understanding of.

Said simply, if you're trully open to knowledge and discovery, you have to be willing to admit that everything you believe you know, is wrong.

I wonder, if upstater is able to apply that type of discipline to the situation around Joe Paterno.

I think there is still a lot of information, discovery that needs to take place but based on observations so far, it seems that everything that was believed true about Joe Paterno, is highly in question. I shudder to think what might actually turn up, beyond what already has.

 

[HuskyNan]

Some people need to find a way to intellectualize a situation like the Penn State-Sandusky scandal because otherwise they might be overwhelmed with their horror and revulsion. This might be especially true of people that have ties to PSU and/or Paterno. We have a poster on the women's board with links to PSU that's doing the same thing.

 

[upstater]

I think there is still a lot of information, discovery that needs to take place but based on observations so far, it seems that everything that was believed true about Joe Paterno, is highly in question. I shudder to think what might actually turn up, beyond what already has.

This is what it comes down to. His legacy has been tarnished because of a huge moral failing. Not sure what you mean about everything "believed" to be true. It's a question of fact. It's factual that Paterno has contributed a lot to the school, community, and that his players are students. I think this is what he was revered for. I'm not sure the myth of Paterno goes beyond that. If it does, it's about winning football games. At the level of community service, I'm not aware of him being lauded for anything other than giving vast amounts of money to the university and for raising money for causes (like the Second Mile!)

 

[upstater]

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/11/special_report_why_the_jerry_s.html

 

[Carl Spackler]

This is what it comes down to. His legacy has been tarnished because of a huge moral failing. Not sure what you mean about everything "believed" to be true. It's a question of fact. It's factual that Paterno has contributed a lot to the school, community, and that his players are students. I think this is what he was revered for. I'm not sure the myth of Paterno goes beyond that. If it does, it's about winning football games. At the level of community service, I'm not aware of him being lauded for anything other than giving vast amounts of money to the university and for raising money for causes (like the Second Mile!)

Does a lifetime of good deeds erase the stain of one unspeakably evil deed?

I've refrained from writing on this subject, because it's as far away from sports and football as anything can be. It makes me sick that this whole situation is portrayed as a sports story.

This whole subject matter is about one thing, and one thing only. The rape of child. Who did it. Who knew about it. What did they do about it.

If it happened in the board rooms of Chase Manhattan bank, and was enabled by the board of directors and child charity organizations of the bank, does that make it this weeks big economic/business news? No. But I digress.

The rape of child. Never mind the rest of ugliness, the duration that this might have gone on, the numbers of children potentially involved. One single child is all that matters, and the rape of that child.

I do not believe for one second that Joe Paterno did not know exactly what was happening at Penn State university with his staff and facilities.

The corruption and extent of the cover up around this thing reads like the worst Stephen King or Dean Koontz horror novel, (or the best novel - however you look at it).

But this is real. The rape of child, and what appears to be serial rape of children, and the extent of the coverup extending throughout the web of a multi-billion dollar institution.

For me, that single child, and failing to do anythign about it, is enough to erase every good deed from that lifetime.

I have never encountered such an evil of life. I pray to the lord that I don't ever encounter it, and none of my children do, and their children and anyone I know and love. I don't know how I'd react. I would hope that my immediate reaction and following course of action would not erase all the good deeds of my life.

There is no greater crime, to me, than what is discussed here. Penn state university and Joe Paterno mean nothing now, except the place where a child was raped, and the man in charge during a decades long period of time before anything was done.

That is the discipline.

 

[upstater]

Does a lifetime of good deeds erase the stain of one unspeakably evil deed?

I never said it did. I was responding to this: "it seems that everything that was believed true about Joe Paterno, is highly in question"

He is the man who donated his time and efforts to the school AND who turned a blind-eye to the rape of a child.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I've said my piece. I asked a question, about good deeds and evil deeds, and answered it how I feel is right. Your statement about Paterno turning a 'blind-eye' tells me that you don't agree with my position. I don't believe for a second that man turned a blind eye, and perhaps that's the most troubling thing for most people, especially those that have known the guy, and interacted, because it means having to reject everything they believe, it's answering that question - how could he NOT have done anythign more?

I've written all I intend to write on this subject, I felt like adding something here, because, well I felt like it, because I think that a fellow uconn die hard is having trouble facing the reality of a heliocentric universe, after a lifetime of understanding and knowing that the earth is the center of the universe. It's not an easy thing to do.

Forgive me if I overstep my bounds in making judgements.

 

[businesslawyer]

I've said my piece. I asked a question, about good deeds and evil deeds, and answered it how I feel is right. Your statement about Paterno turning a 'blind-eye' tells me that you don't agree with my position. I don't believe for a second that man turned a blind eye, and perhaps that's the most troubling thing for most people, especially those that have known the guy, and interacted, because it means having to reject everything they believe, it's answering that question - how could he NOT have done anythign more?

I've written all I intend to write on this subject, I felt like adding something here, because, well I felt like it, because I think that a fellow uconn die hard is having trouble facing the reality of a heliocentric universe, after a lifetime of understanding and knowing that the earth is the center of the universe. It's not an easy thing to do.

Forgive me if I overstep my bounds in making judgements.

I'm confused. If you are stating he did more than turn a blind eye, I'd love to know what else you are saying he did.