Upset Alert, Michigan State in trouble | Page 2 | The Boneyard

Upset Alert, Michigan State in trouble

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CallMeBruce said:
MSU threw this game away so many times.
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How can you throw away something you never had? This is my 2nd most hoped for result of the first round. Can't stand Sparty and their fans. Izzo has been so smug and self-satisfied lately good to see him humbled.
 
Scot-e said:
When we were leaving the FF and they just beat us -the MSU fans were screaming at us and pushing me and my wife- worst fans ever. .
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Before, during and after.
 
kobe said:
They were in the KenPom top 100 for a lot of the season but tailed off late. Committee, per usual, did an awful job in seeding.
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You guys (PcktNiels/Kobe) must not be familiar with Fairleigh Dickinson circa 1998. By himself Elijah Allen is the best #15 seed of all time.
 
CTBasketball said:
At first thought I said my bracket is ruined. Then I realized 99.99% of all humans had Michigan State in the Final 4.
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This was the sole reason I did not, but in my 2 brackets I had Purdue in one of them so...............
 
Francesa was saying that Izzo is the best coach when it comes to out-perfoming his teams' seedings. That took a bit of a hit, now didn't it. It's pretty rough to have the Player of the Year and get bounced in the first round.
 
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Michigan State can't teach a guard how to play. Instead they try to run offense with a bunch of 6'8" slow guys. I never really understand how izzo builds a team. At least twice i recall izzo complaining about the direction of college basketball after ncaa losses. It favors dribble penetratrion too much...stuff like that. I'm not sure what izzo is thinking. Dribble penetratrion has always been critical. Go recruit some guards already.
 
Seems like every year for Michigan State. Izzo a good coach, great guy, is known to bring his teams out of nowhere to compete. Then, they lose. They always get talked up and lose. Especially our last NC.
 
NDakotaHusky said:
Michigan State can't teach a guard how to play. Instead they try to run offense with a bunch of 6'8" slow guys. I never really understand how izzo builds a team. At least twice i recall izzo complaining about the direction of college basketball after ncaa losses. It favors dribble penetratrion too much...stuff like that. I'm not sure what izzo is thinking. Dribble penetratrion has always been critical. Go recruit some guards already.
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Izzo has more Final Four appearances this century than any coach. Do you really question him that much?
 
I hope after this NCAAT, Delaney decided enough is enough. Let's grab UCONN and CINCINNATTI while they are available so that they could teach us a thing or two about playing basketball in March.

I know, i know.... Basketball does not drive the bus of CR but I still somehow hope.
 
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Dogdeacon said:
You guys (PcktNiels/Kobe) must not be familiar with Fairleigh Dickinson circa 1998. By himself Elijah Allen is the best #15 seed of all time.
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Oh God get off yourself dude. MSU didn't even play that badly, they were just outclassed athletically as a team and Izzo got horribly out coached down the stretch. They weren't just plucky undersized kids hitting lucky contested 3s, they physically dominated MSU in every facet.
 
CAHUSKY said:
Izzo has more Final Four appearances this century than any coach. Do you really question him that much?
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Im not a huge fan. And i think there's plenty of evidence izzo can't teach guard play or doesn't understand it's importance. Most likely his rep is bad enough in regards to guard play he has trouble recruiting
 
NDakotaHusky said:
Im not a huge fan. And i think there's plenty of evidence izzo can't teach guard play or doesn't understand it's importance. Most likely his rep is bad enough in regards to guard play he has trouble recruiting
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Name me 5 better coaches. Hell, name me 3.
 
NDakotaHusky said:
Im not a huge fan. And i think there's plenty of evidence izzo can't teach guard play or doesn't understand it's importance. Most likely his rep is bad enough in regards to guard play he has trouble recruiting
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superjohn said:
Larry Brown, K and Pitino.
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Debatable, yes, and probably not.

Pitino does a nice job, but he doesn't put anybody into the pros, and he doesn't have as impressive a record in the tourney as Izzo.

FWIW, Brown is the best in-game coach I've seen in college. But "play by the rules, or at least be good at hiding the fact that you don't" is part of being a good college coach, and he doesn't do that. If you want a program-builder, it goes like this:

1) Calhoun
2) Krzyzewski
3) Izzo
 
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Matrim55 said:
Debatable, yes, and probably not.

Pitino does a nice job, but he doesn't put anybody into the pros, and he doesn't have as impressive a record in the tourney as Izzo.

FWIW, Brown is the best in-game coach I've seen in college. But "play by the rules, or at least be good at hiding the fact that you don't" is part of being a good college coach, and he doesn't do that. If you want a program-builder, it goes like this:

1) Calhoun
2) Krzyzewski
3) Izzo
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I agree with pretty much all of this but wanted him to list current coaches. K is a given but I echo your sentiments on Brown and Pitino. The fact he'd even list Brown when he has neither the college career achievements and can't manage to run a clean program (let alone stay long enough in any one place to build one) is laughable. He probably is the best in game coach currently in the college game, but he's also among the worst at actually maintaining a program and being consistently successful on the court and staying out of trouble off it.
 
NDakotaHusky said:
Im not a huge fan. And i think there's plenty of evidence izzo can't teach guard play or doesn't understand it's importance. Most likely his rep is bad enough in regards to guard play he has trouble recruiting
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Izzo has been to more Final Fours than any coach this century. You really question him that seriously?
 
Matrim55 said:
Debatable, yes, and probably not.

Pitino does a nice job, but he doesn't put anybody into the pros, and he doesn't have as impressive a record in the tourney as Izzo.

FWIW, Brown is the best in-game coach I've seen in college. But "play by the rules, or at least be good at hiding the fact that you don't" is part of being a good college coach, and he doesn't do that. If you want a program-builder, it goes like this:

1) Calhoun
2) Krzyzewski
3) Izzo
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I'm guessing he was talking about current coaches. I could easily name 5 better than Izzo if we are talking about all time.
 
superjohn said:
I'm guessing he was talking about current coaches. I could easily name 5 better than Izzo if we are talking about all time.
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I'm not 100% sure you could. Izzo's a great coach - 7 , 1 title, plenty of guys in the league, and he's raised a mid-tier B1G's program to best in the league while never sniffing controversy.

Only coaches of the last 30 years who are definitely better are Calhoun & K. All-time, the list isn't really that much longer.
 
Also Izzo does it without a bunch of top recruits. His teams usually have a lot of hard nosed workers who get the best out of their abilities.
 
Matrim55 said:
Debatable, yes, and probably not.

Pitino does a nice job, but he doesn't put anybody into the pros, and he doesn't have as impressive a record in the tourney as Izzo.

FWIW, Brown is the best in-game coach I've seen in college. But "play by the rules, or at least be good at hiding the fact that you don't" is part of being a good college coach, and he doesn't do that. If you want a program-builder, it goes like this:

1) Calhoun
2) Krzyzewski
3) Izzo
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@Matrim55 agree with Calhoun obviously but as far as program builders go, wasn't Duke already a power long before K got there? Didn't they already have good teams prior? Clearly he has made them one of the best programs ever but just curious.
 
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80shusky said:
@Matrim55 agree with Calhoun obviously but as far as program builders go, wasn't Duke already a power long before K got there? Didn't they already have good teams prior? Clearly he has made them one of the best programs ever but just curious.
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Duke was the 3rd-best program in North Carolina, and had zero titles before K. Hate him all you want - it's justified for his sanctimony - but he's been a brilliant coach and an even better program builder. There are two dozen different programs that could have gone from "pretty good" in the '70s and early '80s to "Nation's premiere program" in the '90s and beyond, but only Duke managed it.

Calhoun had a steeper climb, which is why I rate him highest. But let's not undersell what K (or Izzo) accomplished. They're great, great coaches.
 
Matrim55 said:
I'm not 100% sure you could. Izzo's a great coach - 7 , 1 title, plenty of guys in the league, and he's raised a mid-tier B1G's program to best in the league while never sniffing controversy.

Only coaches of the last 30 years who are definitely better are Calhoun & K. All-time, the list isn't really that much longer.
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K, Calhoun, Knight, Pitino and Smith are all more accomplished, Larry Brown isn't as accomplished at the college level but he's one of the few greatest coaches ever in my opinion. Roy Williams is also more accomplished but I think Izzo is the better coach, you could also make an argument for Donovan. I'm not even bringing up the old timers. Izzo is great but you could certainly make an argument for 5 or more coaches being better.
 
superjohn said:
K, Calhoun, Knight, Pitino and Smith are all more accomplished...
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Maybe. Pitino and Smith both took already-premier programs and kept them at that level (and Pitino, at least, cheated). Knight was a product of his time, and only had about 10-12 really good years before a steep decline. I put Izzo's accomplishments over the past 20 years up with Knight's and am willing to lose the argument, but I really do think it's an argument.

I mean, 7 final fours in 18 years, including 3 in a row, is pretty amazing. And he's never really had a GREAT recruiting class until the one coming in next year. I wouldn't be shocked if he put something remarkable together over the next two seasons, even without Valentine.
 
Matrim55 said:
Maybe. Pitino and Smith both took already-premier programs and kept them at that level (and Pitino, at least, cheated). Knight was a product of his time, and only had about 10-12 really good years before a steep decline. I put Izzo's accomplishments over the past 20 years up with Knight's and am willing to lose the argument, but I really do think it's an argument.

I mean, 7 final fours in 18 years, including 3 in a row, is pretty amazing. And he's never really had a GREAT recruiting class until the one coming in next year. I wouldn't be shocked if he put something remarkable together over the next two seasons, even without Valentine.
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7 final 4's is amazing but they have been blown out in most of them. Izzo will have a stronger argument when he gets more than 1 title. Michigan State also wasn't some garbage program before Izzo got there, there was this guy named Magic Johnson.
 
superjohn said:
7 final 4's is amazing but they have been blown out in most of them. Izzo will have a stronger argument when he gets more than 1 title. Michigan State also wasn't some garbage program before Izzo got there, there was this guy named Magic Johnson.
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Before Izzo they hadn't been to an Elite 8 in two decades. Magic's two years were the exception rather than the rule - they were pretty solidly the 6th or 7th best team in the B1G when he took over (Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, Purdue, Wiscy, Ohio State).
 
You were dismissive of Pitino for taking an already great program over. He took Providence to a freaking final 4 along with two other teams and he has 2 titles. I don't see how you can argue Izzo's accomplishments are greater. The same saying we always say around here for Boeheim also applies to Izzo. Tyler Olander has twice as many National Championships as Tom Izzo.
 
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