UNC coach Hatchell resigns after program review

[zls44]

What some call "racially insensitive" comments are often innocuous things that 95% of people would not view as even remotely racist.

If you think 95% of people think alluding to hanging African Americans by a noose from a tree isn't racist...then...you're definitely also a racist.

 

[zls44]

Also, I do get the arguments about one person she said/she said situations...this seems to be a lot of players, statements that don't leave a lot of wiggle room for misinterpretation and (for the cynics) a coach who hasn't won in a long time AND oversaw a program that ran afoul of NCAA regulations for decades.

Bye, Sil.

 

[MSGRET]

Also, I do get the arguments about one person she said/she said situations...this seems to be a lot of players, statements that don't leave a lot of wiggle room for misinterpretation and (for the cynics) a coach who hasn't won in a long time AND oversaw a program that ran afowl of NCAA regulations for decades.

Bye, Sil.

Actually it was more of the football and men's basketball programs that ran afowl, but some of the women's basketball team was also going and they blamed it on them more then on the men. It was a sham and the NCAA let UNCheat get away with it.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

If you think 95% of people think alluding to hanging African Americans by a noose from a tree isn't racist...then...you're definitely also a racist.

If you believe it is racist to be ignorant of history, ignorant or uncaring of how words can be hurtful to folks of different background, and if you don't recognize the difference in what your life has been like versus many folks disadvantaged by race - then you would identify them as racist. I just call them ignorant.

It is still wrong, it is rude, it is a lot of things - but to me racism is doing something with the intent to be hurtful to someone of a different race, or mistreat them (intentionally), or think less of them because they are a different race than you. To me the closest she comes to racism is refusing to acknowledge that those remarks were inappropriate and hurtful to part of her team and her failure to apologize for her insensitivity.

 

[Twolf]

Is it also the players fault for being injured and feeling pressured to come back, or even play through their injury?

This is one part of the story I find a bit perplexing. Every D-1 program has a medical staff, and most have a team doctor. These are the people who decide when an athlete is cleared to play. The article insinuates that the coach tried to pressure and influence this decision making process. No coach should ever ask an injured athlete to play, not only from an ethical standpoint, but that coach is exposing themselves, and the school, to a myriad of liability issues.

There is a difference between being injured and being hurt. Most basketball players have bumped knees, or have taken a knee to the thigh and are hurt. If the medical staff tells the coach they are hurting, but sound physically it then comes down to a mutual decision between player and coach, but if the player says they are a no go, you don’t try to influence their view. If you recall, KLS was playing hurt on an ankle at the end of the 17-18 season, but rest assured she was cleared to play. Some coaches become frustrated with the medical staff, but they have their professional reputation and liability issues on the line, and will almost always err on the side of caution.

In this case there is the player’s version, and the coach’s version, with the correct version, most likely, somewhere in between. JMO

 

[BroadwayVa]

Broadway, So your point is the report was a lever to get rid of her? Given the information contained she should be gone. But hey, I am all for a good conspiracy theory, this isn’t one however...

I just asked the obvious question. I won't comment on the validity of her being asked to resign or the moral aspects of it. There certainly was apparent ly more reasons to fire anyone in the Athletic dept over the academic and associated issue prior to this. If an apology would have fixed it, the issue does not appear to have been earth shaking. You make your own view of this, don't look to me to do it for you. It is an excercize for a Logic class.

 

[BroadwayVa]

If you believe it is racist to be ignorant of history, ignorant or uncaring of how words can be hurtful to folks of different background, and if you don't recognize the difference in what your life has been like versus many folks disadvantaged by race - then you would identify them as racist. I just call them ignorant.

It is still wrong, it is rude, it is a lot of things - but to me racism is doing something with the intent to be hurtful to someone of a different race, or mistreat them (intentionally), or think less of them because they are a different race than you. To me the closest she comes to racism is refusing to acknowledge that those remarks were inappropriate and hurtful to part of her team and her failure to apologize for her insensitivity.

@KnightBridgeAZ --If you are not for them you are against them. I agree, what some call Racist may or may not be ignorant. You need to know more about the person. I lived in a mostly Black Ghetto with a wife and 4 kids as I tried to get my education going, later in DC I lived with a Black family. I'm ignorant of lots of things, including race relatioins. Some here have inferred I'm racist. I discussed this at length with those I lived with and those I worked with. It is an emotional issue and not always a logic one, as most emotionals tend to be.. There are some things Black and White people have to accept won't change much. Remember Racist works about 4 ways---Red, White, Yellow, Brown, Black, White ooops that's 6 ways. Most forget that aspect. Some of us tend to accept negative comment sabout or White Male-ism as being "the the world we live in".

 

[Zorro]

The "ghost classes" at UNC were originally only for athletes, and Sylvia's players were well represented. It was only after the word got out among the Greek orgs that they were opened up to non-athletes, and that was primarily for purposes of "resonable denial". Both she and Roy ought to have been fired immediately, but hey, that ain't reality.

 

[hoopsfan22]

@KnightBridgeAZSome of us tend to accept negative comment sabout or White Male-ism as being "the the world we live in".

White males have had all, or most of the power, in this country since its founding, so it's hard to take them seriously as victims. The argument about reverse racism or sexism towards that particular class doesn't hold up because the undergirding principle of the "isms" is power, and whites, more specifically white males, have had the exclusive benefit of institutional power for centuries.

 

[uconnfan68]

Washington Post today points out that Hatchell never denied that she said "noose" until her attorney got involved. The Post points out that she refused to apologize to the players for the remark, even after they brought it to her attention and told her how they felt.

So it happened. And UNC also agreed, which says something.

And, of course, there is the medical mistreatment and pressure on badly injured players to play.

The last lines of the Post article are about a player doing a selfie while wearing a green jersey. She transferred to Notre Dame.

When players vote with their feet, a university will take notice. It must have been really bad for UNC to force a resignation for a coach with more than a thousand wins.

A distraction for football and mob. They probably love it.

 

[Triad]

It's a whole new generation of players and parents.
Half of the BYers will speak good of the Coach, half will congratulate the players (for destroying another long time coach's life).
Need we say more???

In my estimation no one will say Hatchell's life was destroyed. True, we don't know only that which was printed. What if found disconcerting--and wondered why--Hatchell refused to apologize--it was an easy out. Did she think she was being backed into a corner and took the tough road? If an apology defuses a situation that seems too easy.

 

[Cuango]

How can you possibly care how long she's had a job when she's done it while being racist?

If she said racist garbage, she's racist. I don't care what dumb runaround the school says. This isn't complicated.

Do you know what she said that was supposedly racist?

 

[Centerstream]

Do you know what she said that was supposedly racist?

What does it matter? If only one person thinks that it is racist, then isn't it racist?
That is my impression on how the world works nowadays.

 

[Fairfield Fan]

This is one part of the story I find a bit perplexing. Every D-1 program has a medical staff, and most have a team doctor. These are the people who decide when an athlete is cleared to play. The article insinuates that the coach tried to pressure and influence this decision making process. No coach should ever ask an injured athlete to play, not only from an ethical standpoint, but that coach is exposing themselves, and the school, to a myriad of liability issues.

There is a difference between being injured and being hurt. Most basketball players have bumped knees, or have taken a knee to the thigh and are hurt. If the medical staff tells the coach they are hurting, but sound physically it then comes down to a mutual decision between player and coach, but if the player says they are a no go, you don’t try to influence their view. If you recall, KLS was playing hurt on an ankle at the end of the 17-18 season, but rest assured she was cleared to play. Some coaches become frustrated with the medical staff, but they have their professional reputation and liability issues on the line, and will almost always err on the side of caution.

In this case there is the player’s version, and the coach’s version, with the correct version, most likely, somewhere in between. JMO

Actually, there are two versions that are important: the team physician's report to the athlete, and that athlete's opinion garnered from a second physician's opinion. As the Washington Post article points out, the athletes and their parents were outraged when, time after time, they learned the truth about serious injuries only after consulting a second non-team physician.

So the scandal here is that the team doctor was colluding with the coaching staff to hide the true extent of their injuries from the athletes in order to get them to play while badly injured, and subjecting themselves to further serious injury.

That sounds to me potentially criminal, or at least open to major civil lawsuits. Universities are not supposed to withhold the truth about their injuries from student-athletes. Yet that, as documented by The Post, is exactly what UNC did.

And as to "hurt versus injured," that is a false distinction. If you are hurting, you've been injured. Pain is your body telling you that it's suffered an injury. One might be sore, but it sounds as though this distinction without a difference is meant to keep badly injured kids playing, no matter the risk to them.

 

[Fairfield Fan]

How on earth has Hatchell coached for 30+ years and this is the FIRST time anyone has ever heard about this? I'm no Tar Heel fan, but this is complete and utter nonsense. This woman has dedicated her life and career to WBB and that University.

She just must be lost, embarrassed, and totally devastated.

Well, The Post points out that the situation with injured kids being forced to play, or being told to play because the extent of their serious injuries was withheld from them, goes back several years. So, according to the press, which appears to have gotten a lot of information from the UNC study, this is not a one-off thing.

 

[uconnfan68]

Well, The Post points out that the situation with injured kids being forced to play, or being told to play because the extent of their serious injuries was withheld from them, goes back several years. So, according to the press, which appears to have gotten a lot of information from the UNC study, this is not a one-off thing.

It’s a Carolina thing... Duke had it too.

 

[Fairfield Fan]

Duke destroyed Britney Hunter's knee, giving her multiple shots when she should have been held out of games. A lot about her and her treatment at Duke in the press at the time.

The poor kid couldn't practice most of the time, and couldn't play basketball in a game more than a few minutes per game. She was excellent when she was in, but her permanent injury kept her from playing more than tiny amounts.

That was on Duke.

 

[triaddukefan]

[

Duke destroyed Britney Hunter's knee, giving her multiple shots when she should have been held out of games. A lot about her and her treatment at Duke in the press at the time.

The poor kid couldn't practice most of the time, and couldn't play basketball in a game more than a few minutes per game. She was excellent when she was in, but her permanent injury kept her from playing more than tiny amounts.

That was on Duke.

Got any links to those articles?

 

[Twolf]

Actually, there are two versions that are important: the team physician's report to the athlete, and that athlete's opinion garnered from a second physician's opinion. As the Washington Post article points out, the athletes and their parents were outraged when, time after time, they learned the truth about serious injuries only after consulting a second non-team physician.

So the scandal here is that the team doctor was colluding with the coaching staff to hide the true extent of their injuries from the athletes in order to get them to play while badly injured, and subjecting themselves to further serious injury.

That sounds to me potentially criminal, or at least open to major civil lawsuits. Universities are not supposed to withhold the truth about their injuries from student-athletes. Yet that, as documented by The Post, is exactly what UNC did.

And as to "hurt versus injured," that is a false distinction. If you are hurting, you've been injured. Pain is your body telling you that it's suffered an injury. One might be sore, but it sounds as though this distinction without a difference is meant to keep badly injured kids playing, no matter the risk to them.

If this collusion is proven to be true then SH and the team Dr. have got much bigger issues than loss of their positions. The Dr. will never again have a license to practice again and they both better have legal counsel on retainer.

There are many athletes who participate who are still hurting, but have been medically released tp compete. You’ve heard many coaches say that “Joe” is about 80%, which means they haven’t fully recovered, and probably will still have some discomfort when competing and will have soreness and possibly some swelling post competition, depending on their previous injury.
When a coach is notified an athlete has been cleared, the medical staff sign the release, along with whatever limitations (minutes or certain activities) are placed on the athlete, and this is on file, with copies to all involved. The coach should never exceed the limitations, nor play the athlete if they’re not comfortable trying to participate. Even at the D-1 level parents are usually involved in this process, and the decisions made about when to return. Again no coach should violate any of this process, and if they do they are putting themselves at legal and ethical risk. The vast % of coaches never violate this trust, not only because they put their job at risk, but more so because it’s just wrong.

 

[CocoHusky]

What some call "racially insensitive" comments are often innocuous things that 95% of people would not view as even remotely racist. One example: An ESPN tennis commentator was fired and had his life ruined because he said Serena Williams was using "guerilla tactics" by surprise attacks on the net. That was somehow viewed as racist - absurd on its face.

Racially insensitive Does NOT equal racist. The insensitive part in this case is perhaps more important & the take away is: those words should not be used because they offend. This ESPN commentator could have learned from Howard Cousell in 1983 when Cousell referred to Joe Washington as a "little monkey" -a phrase Cousell had been using on air since 1972.

 

[Fairfield Fan]

[


Got any links to those articles?

Yes:

Transfer blames Duke staff for severity of knee injury

"Recent published reports had Hunter, the top-rated high school prospect in 2003, criticizing the Duke coaching and medical staff for problems that led her to a third knee surgery in less than a year back in October. Hunter declined to comment further on this situation, but she said she may revisit the issue at a later date. Duke officials also did not make coach Gail Goestenkors, who refuted the accusations, available for comment but issued a statement earlier this week."

Brittany Hunter's Complaint -- Three Views

"A story has emerged about former Duke player Brittany Hunter's
experience at Duke. She and her mother, Jeryll Womack, are accusing the
coaching staff and medical staff of mismanagement of Brittany's knee
injury, and have intimated that they may sue Duke if Brittany is unable to
play again at UConn."

 

[Fairfield Fan]

Yes:

Transfer blames Duke staff for severity of knee injury

"Recent published reports had Hunter, the top-rated high school prospect in 2003, criticizing the Duke coaching and medical staff for problems that led her to a third knee surgery in less than a year back in October. Hunter declined to comment further on this situation, but she said she may revisit the issue at a later date. Duke officials also did not make coach Gail Goestenkors, who refuted the accusations, available for comment but issued a statement earlier this week."

Brittany Hunter's Complaint -- Three Views

"A story has emerged about former Duke player Brittany Hunter's
experience at Duke. She and her mother, Jeryll Womack, are accusing the
coaching staff and medical staff of mismanagement of Brittany's knee
injury, and have intimated that they may sue Duke if Brittany is unable to
play again at UConn."

And yes:

3/29/2005 Hunters progress slow

"Hunter, who was rated No. 1 on the Blue Star Index top 100 seniors list in 2003 and received the Parade National player of the year, underwent surgery upon arriving in Storrs to repair a torn ligament in her knee that she experienced during her freshman campaign at Duke.

"It has been speculated that her rehabilitation on the initial surgery was rushed and perhaps resulted in further injury. This time her meniscus was replaced with one from a cadaver, thus her recovery is experimental. She said she is hoping to be able to play again in June or July."

 

[Rema64]

What some call "racially insensitive" comments are often innocuous things that 95% of people would not view as even remotely racist. One example: An ESPN tennis commentator was fired and had his life ruined because he said Serena Williams was using "guerilla tactics" by surprise attacks on the net. That was somehow viewed as racist - absurd on its face.

Absurd to you but the standard is not how you mean it but how it is received. You may not find it insensitive but ask anyone of color how it feels to be referenced in that way. At the end of the day my opinion is that is the start of the conversation when both parties can express and discuss both the intent and that persons perception of the comment.

 

[Madmannsucks]

Racially insensitive Does NOT equal racist. The insensitive part in this case is perhaps more important & the take away is: those words should not be used because they offend. This ESPN commentator could have learned from Howard Cousell in 1983 when Cousell referred to Joe Washington as a "little monkey" -a phrase Cousell had been using on air since 1972.

Yeah, does not make her a racist as an absolute. She does apparently lack empathy and insight.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

Absurd to you but the standard is not how you mean it but how it is received. You may not find it insensitive but ask anyone of color how it feels to be referenced in that way. At the end of the day my opinion is that is the start of the conversation when both parties can express and discuss both the intent and that persons perception of the comment.

Maybe I'm dense, so clarify - is it because the word "guerilla" (which I don't think is spelled right) sounds like gorilla? Because I am as sure as I can be that guerrilla as a word has nothing to do with the animal nor any connotation that could conceivably be considered racist so far as I am aware - in fact I looked it up and it is from the Spanish for war "guera". It refers to military or militia groups that come out of hiding, perform sneak attacks and go back into hiding. So I don't quite get it.

Then again, there is a word for cheap that sort of looks like the "N" word and is spelled similarly (one g) although it is pronounced with a long 'I" (as it would be, based on how it is spelled) and has been pretty much banned. Again, it had zilch to do with the "N" word, not related in where it comes from or any reference it was ever used for.

And yes, you shouldn't use words that offend people. But, as has been said, folks currently look for things to be offended over. And just to be clear - I don't mean Sylvia's comments, which if they were as stated certainly were capable of offending folks, regardless of how they were meant.

 

[jimazee]

I am wondering why this thread is "UConn Women's basketball" ...

 

[HopJim]

Absurd to you but the standard is not how you mean it but how it is received. You may not find it insensitive but ask anyone of color how it feels to be referenced in that way. At the end of the day my opinion is that is the start of the conversation when both parties can express and discuss both the intent and that persons perception of the comment.

Diversity training is a two way process. While often uncomfortable, most benefit from the conversation.

 

[CL82]

Yeah, does not make her a racist as an absolute. She does apparently lack empathy and insight.

Especially after they came to her to explain how they felt.