UConn stats...in defense of Anna & Carnac...

[Buzzyboy]

By all indication IF those so called main culprits did pass to Anna, chances are/were Anna was just going to pass it off to someone else.

Well, the likelihood would then be that she might have gotten herself more assists because she is a very good passer .... I do think that, particularly as the season progressed, she was starting to put up shots when she was open .... she actually has really good instincts about what to do with the ball, whether to pass, penetrate, shoot .... namely to do what's necessary to get a bucket for her or a teammate and that's why it's so easy to like her

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

I am a stat guy! But stats don't tell the whole story of every athlete!
For example, the late Thurman Munson cannot get enough Hall of Fame votes because "they" say he didn't play long enough or his stats don't measure up to Catchers in the Hall of Fame! Which is false!
But IMHO the MOST IMPORTANT credential any player needs to gain entry into the HofF is, was he considered one of the elite players of his ERA? Which obviously Thurman was! He was a peer of Johnny Bench and Pudge Fisk that gained entrance into the HofF! Jim Rice was one of those players who finally got in! Mike Mussina was also an example of that bias but eventually got in!
So using that reasoning to be an All-American in WCBB, was the player one of the Elite in Division I?
Kia Nurse was an elite player but too many teammates of hers ALSO was among the elite and the unwritten rule is only 2 or 3 from any team can be selected an AA! So Kia wasn't named! Jamelle Elliott was in the same boat. Every one of the WBB people that voted for AA couldn't vote her AA because Lobo, Woltors, & Rizzotti were chosen ahead of Jamelle!
If Anna has a truly GREAT season for UCONN, she should be a worthy of consideration for the AA team! A star on one of the best teams in WCBB should be eligible for AA!

 

[cbraarj]

I am a stat guy! But stats don't tell the whole story of every athlete!
For example, the late Thurman Munson cannot get enough Hall of Fame votes because "they" say he didn't play long enough or his stats don't measure up to Catchers in the Hall of Fame! Which is false!
But IMHO the MOST IMPORTANT credential any player needs to gain entry into the HofF is, was he considered one of the elite players of his ERA? Which obviously Thurman was! He was a peer of Johnny Bench and Pudge Fisk that gained entrance into the HofF! Jim Rice was one of those players who finally got in! Mike Mussina was also an example of that bias but eventually got in!
So using that reasoning to be an All-American in WCBB, was the player one of the Elite in Division I?
Kia Nurse was an elite player but too many teammates of hers ALSO was among the elite and the unwritten rule is only 2 or 3 from any team can be selected an AA! So Kia wasn't named! Jamelle Elliott was in the same boat. Every one of the WBB people that voted for AA couldn't vote her AA because Lobo, Woltors, & Rizzotti were chosen ahead of Jamelle!
If Anna has a truly GREAT season for UCONN, she should be a worthy of consideration for the AA team! A star on one of the best teams in WCBB should be eligible for AA!

Don Mattingly should be in the HOF too!

 

[Littlemin]

I am a stat guy! But stats don't tell the whole story of every athlete!
For example, the late Thurman Munson cannot get enough Hall of Fame votes because "they" say he didn't play long enough or his stats don't measure up to Catchers in the Hall of Fame! Which is false!
But IMHO the MOST IMPORTANT credential any player needs to gain entry into the HofF is, was he considered one of the elite players of his ERA? Which obviously Thurman was! He was a peer of Johnny Bench and Pudge Fisk that gained entrance into the HofF! Jim Rice was one of those players who finally got in! Mike Mussina was also an example of that bias but eventually got in!
So using that reasoning to be an All-American in WCBB, was the player one of the Elite in Division I?
Kia Nurse was an elite player but too many teammates of hers ALSO was among the elite and the unwritten rule is only 2 or 3 from any team can be selected an AA! So Kia wasn't named! Jamelle Elliott was in the same boat. Every one of the WBB people that voted for AA couldn't vote her AA because Lobo, Woltors, & Rizzotti were chosen ahead of Jamelle!
If Anna has a truly GREAT season for UCONN, she should be a worthy of consideration for the AA team! A star on one of the best teams in WCBB should be eligible for AA!

The odd thing about Munson and the HOF and the ridiculous “didn’t play long enough” argument is that the same criteria was not applied to Sandy Koufax or Dizzy Dean, both of whom without a doubt belong. But so does Munson, beyond that same doubt.

 

[HopJim]

No she will not. Kia nurse did all that and more DPOY and was not named as such. Likewise for Senior Saniya Chong.

Kia had issues being named to All American teams since there was so much talent her Jr. and Sr years, 3 UConn players were perceived as more valuable. Tough to have 4 starters on any team receive AA status. Chong just had too many players from other teams perceived to have higher skill level.

 

[JonathanXIV]

The odd thing about Munson and the HOF and the ridiculous “didn’t play long enough” argument is that the same criteria was not applied to Sandy Koufax or Dizzy Dean, both of whom without a doubt belong. But so does Munson, beyond that same doubt.

Not looking for a fight, but there is no comparison between the careers of Koufax and Munson, other than the relative brevity of their careers. Koufax won an MVP and 3 CY Youngs, and received 23 separate individual awards. Munson won an MVP, Rookie of the Year and that's it. Koufax is arguably the greatest player ever at his position (peak value). Munson, while very good, was not. When comparing his career to catchers who are the most similar to him, the top 10 are all very good players, but none of them HOFers.

One can make a reasonable argument that Munson belongs in the HOF (not an argument that I agree with), but the argument for Munson in the HOF is not strengthened or enhanced by comparing him to Koufax.

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

A committee of some sports writers, fans, ex-players, put statistics together that showed Thurman Munson in seasons and/or career has stats EQUAL TO OR BETTER than Carlton Fiske, Johnny Bench (considered by many as the greatest catcher of all time), and other catchers in the Hall of Fame!
You can't compare pitcher's to catcher's, or infielders to outfielders etc. But in the comparison of catchers to catchers Thurman holds his own or passes the others!
I can't find the article that stated the above but they listed Thurman, Fiske, Bench, and 2 other catchers (that at 73 I can't recall)! If I find the article I will post it here.
And mentioned above Don Mattingly is in the same boat as Thurman!
Harold Baines made the Hall of Fame through the Veterans Committee and Baines compared to HofF outfielders comes up short! A good but not great player!

 

[Littlemin]

Not looking for a beat, but there is no comparison between the careers of Koufax and Munson, other than the relative brevity of their careers. Koufax won an MVP and 3 CY Youngs, and received 23 separate individual awards. Munson won an MVP, Rookie of the Year and that's it. Koufax is arguably the greatest player ever at his position (peak value). Munson, while very good, was not. When comparing his career to catchers who are the most similar to him, the top 10 are all very good players, but none of them HOFers.

One can make a reasonable argument that Munson belongs in the HOF (not an argument that I agree with), but the argument for Munson in the HOF is not strengthened or enhanced by comparing him to Koufax.

No one compared him to Koufax, period end of story. My point was that Koufax also had a very short time of success, albeit, legendary. The primary reason given for Munson not getting by voters has been length of career. You want to argue record, fine, but I did not mention that at all. And no, not many “top 10“ catchers had three 100 RBI seasons, three Gold Gloves, were ROY, and won an MVP award. Outside of Bench, Munson was the best catcher of his era. Tremendous clutch player, great post season stats.
Further, Sandy Koufax had four of the greatest seasons a pitcher ever had, no question. But In the five preceding seasons his record was 59-50 with an ERA of 3.65. Should Koufax be in the HOF, of course, but one can’t argue that he didn’t have a short burst of greatness with an actual longer period of mediocrity relative to a “normal” HOF career.

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

I found an article that states Thurman should be in the HofF ( not the one I had read before).
It is too long to copy but here is the URL to the article!

The Baseball Hall of Fame continues to miss out on Thurman Munson

Now that we know who'll be inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame, we ponder why New York Yankees catcher Thurman Munson never made the cut.

elitesportsny.com

and another article:

Home - Thurman Munson Hall of Fame

“Thurman Munson was the glue that held the Yankees pitching staff together during those championship years. He was a fierce competitor who was beloved by everyone on those teams. His greatness cannot be measured by batting average and home runs alone. Without him, the Yankees do not win those...

munsonhof.com

 

[JonathanXIV]

A committee of some sports writers, fans, ex-players, put statistics together that showed Thurman Munson in seasons and/or career has stats EQUAL TO OR BETTER than Carlton Fiske, Johnny Bench (considered by many as the greatest catcher of all time), and other catchers in the Hall of Fame!
You can't compare pitcher's to catcher's, or infielders to outfielders etc. But in the comparison of catchers to catchers Thurman holds his own or passes the others!
I can't find the article that stated the above but they listed Thurman, Fiske, Bench, and 2 other catchers (that at 73 I can't recall)! If I find the article I will post it here.
And mentioned above Don Mattingly is in the same boat as Thurman!
Harold Baines made the Hall of Fame through the Veterans Committee and Baines compared to HofF outfielders comes up short! A good but not great player!

First, I think Thurman Munson was a helluva baseball player. Period.

Second, I agree with you about Harold Baines. Very good player. Head scratching decision to put him in the HOF. (note: almost all questionable HOF decisions are by Veterans Committees).

Third, using lots of exclamations points does not bolster your argument. The simple fact is that Munson's stats were not "equal to or better" than the records of either Bench or Fisk. While all three catchers had similar OBPs, both Bench and Fisk hit for considerably more power and had much higher SLG averages. Munson only slugged .410 for his career and was under .375 the last two years of his career (during his age 31 season he hit 6 HRs). He had 1 season of 20 or more HRs, Bench had 11 and Fisk had 8. Lifetime Munson had 113 HRs and 701 RBIs. Bench was 389/1376 and Fisk was 376/1330. Those are in no way comparable. Munson had 55.1 WAR lifetime. Impressive. Bench had 85.4 and Fisk 83.3. Again, a world of difference. Again, very good player. Not a HOFer. But not offended that you passionately make an argument for Munson. And you shouldn't be offended that I respectively disagree.

 

[JonathanXIV]

No one compared him to Koufax, period end of story. My point was that Koufax also had a very short time of success, albeit, legendary. The primary reason given for Munson not getting by voters has been length of career. You want to argue record, fine, but I did not mention that at all. And no, not many “top 10“ catchers had three 100 RBI seasons, three Gold Gloves, were ROY, and won an MVP award. Outside of Bench, Munson was the best catcher of his era. Tremendous clutch player, great post season stats.
Further, Sandy Koufax had four of the greatest seasons a pitcher ever had, no question. But In the five preceding seasons his record was 59-50 with an ERA of 3.65. Should Koufax be in the HOF, of course, but one can’t argue that he didn’t have a short burst of greatness with an actual longer period of mediocrity relative to a “normal” HOF career.

Actually, you did when you noted that "the same criteria was not applied to Sandy Koufax or Dizzy Dean, both of whom without a doubt belong. But so does Munson, beyond that same doubt." When you argue that the same criteria used for Koufax should be used for Munson, that's a comparison.

 

[MSGRET]

I thought this a UConn Women's basketball thread not a baseball HOF thread.

 

[Littlemin]

Actually, you did when you noted that "the same criteria was not applied to Sandy Koufax or Dizzy Dean, both of whom without a doubt belong. But so does Munson, beyond that same doubt." When you argue that the same criteria used for Koufax should be used for Munson, that's a comparison.

You must be a lawyer, my comparison was length of effectiveness, you obviously felt that gave you license to compare whatever took your fancy. The criteria I stated was just as obviously not applied to Koufax and Dean which you slyly sidestepped to present an entirely different argument.

 

[JonathanXIV]

You must be a lawyer, my comparison was length of effectiveness, you obviously felt that gave you license to compare whatever took your fancy. The criteria I stated was just as obviously not applied to Koufax and Dean which you slyly sidestepped to present an entirely different argument.

And my point is that while their careers may have been similar in length, they were not similarly effective. Be that as it may, we are free to respectfully disagree. Back to basketball.

 

[Littlemin]

And my point is that while their careers may have been similar in length, they were not similarly effective. Be that as it may, we are free to respectfully disagree. Back to basketball.

I understand your argument, it is just one I hadn’t brought up; you can’t have a debate when one party changes the topic. We don’t disagree at all, virtually any span of 4 year success in any sport pales compared to Koufax’ run but that was not my point. It was a short run, so was Dizzy Dean’s. Those are facts and that was my only point. So back to basketball.

 

[Cuango]

I am quite fascinated by the number of people on social media (the repository of all things mediocre and standardless) who attack other posters who do not follow Fowlers “Modern English Usage” to the T as if that somehow invalidates the poster’s argument. I do not write the same way on social media as I would at school or work. Is that wrong? Probably so. It, at the very least, is lazy and sloppy. However, it has nothing at all to do with the validity of my argument or opinion! It is as though they are not satisfied with simply debating the question or the merits of the offending post but must demonstrate their superiority by pointing out the vast gulf that exists between themselves and the uneducated, possibly unwashed, and ultimately inferior poster who had the temerity to give such a poorly punctuated opinion! One wonders how these people can stand conversing with people who are not fluent in whatever language they are using? What a trial that must be! I can just picture their disdainful sniff as they prepare to annihilate this boor of a poster.

 

[hoophuskee]

I am quite fascinated by the number of people on social media (the repository of all things mediocre and standardless) who attack other posters who do not follow Fowlers “Modern English Usage” to the T as if that somehow invalidates the poster’s argument. I do not write the same way on social media as I would at school or work. Is that wrong? Probably so. It, at the very least, is lazy and sloppy. However, it has nothing at all to do with the validity of my argument or opinion! It is as though they are not satisfied with simply debating the question or the merits of the offending post but must demonstrate their superiority by pointing out the vast gulf that exists between themselves and the uneducated, possibly unwashed, and ultimately inferior poster who had the temerity to give such a poorly punctuated opinion! One wonders how these people can stand conversing with people who are not fluent in whatever language they are using? What a trial that must be! I can just picture their disdainful sniff as they prepare to annihilate this boor of a poster.

Just curious - who are you talking about? Was it my post to you?

I didn't mean it to be offensive. Was it?

I just posted why I thought what I did. It was not meant to be a putdown in any manner. I just gave reasons why I felt as I did. I would've welcomed a reply.

 

[Skeets]

I am quite fascinated by the number of people on social media (the repository of all things mediocre and standardless) who attack other posters who do not follow Fowlers “Modern English Usage” to the T as if that somehow invalidates the poster’s argument. I do not write the same way on social media as I would at school or work. Is that wrong? Probably so. It, at the very least, is lazy and sloppy. However, it has nothing at all to do with the validity of my argument or opinion! It is as though they are not satisfied with simply debating the question or the merits of the offending post but must demonstrate their superiority by pointing out the vast gulf that exists between themselves and the uneducated, possibly unwashed, and ultimately inferior poster who had the temerity to give such a poorly punctuated opinion! One wonders how these people can stand conversing with people who are not fluent in whatever language they are using? What a trial that must be! I can just picture their disdainful sniff as they prepare to annihilate this boor of a poster.

Ha, you obviously never read any facebook posts by my 3 college educated daughters. Barely resembles English. Get used to it. This is how it's going to be going forward.

 

[cbraarj]

I thought this a UConn Women's basketball thread not a baseball HOF thread.

Yankees are the only exception since the Women have 11 NCs and the Yankees with ahem 27 World Series Championships with both trying for perfection but reaching Excellence in their respective sports!

 

[cbraarj]

Ha, you obviously never read any facebook posts by my 3 college educated daughters. Barely resembles English. Get used to it. This is how it's going to be going forward.

It makes you wonder about all that money spent on college,lol. Me too

 

[JonathanXIV]

Yankees are the only exception since the Women have 11 NCs and the Yankees with ahem 27 World Series Championships with both trying for perfection but reaching Excellence in their respective sports!

UConn’s last championship was much more recent.