Uconn recruiting and the AAC

[Geno-ista]

Re this unionization push in the future. I chatted in Nashville with a few of the big wigs of the womens game of the NCAA after some great panel discussions- names escape me. I just said if this push to unionize goes thru, philosophically, I don't think the college game will ever be as much fun for me. I said I think this could be the end of what we all have come to love in both the men's and women's game. They said in no uncertain terms that they were as worried as I was. The thought of college kids unionizing, to me is like the end of civilization. The US Steelworkers Union will be happy, and get a large return on their funding of all this at Northwestern. Any issues that need to be addressed should be. But this issue makes me really nervous.

 

[doggydaddy]

Well that's what I thought. Soooo, IMO, it's premature (notice no H).

It's not premature if it's a response to the idea that AAC weakness will impact recruiting now while Geno is there.

 

[meyers7]

It's not premature if it's a response to the idea that AAC weakness will impact recruiting now while Geno is there.

You seem very touchy about DD and premature being used together. Are you concerned about something??

 

[Kibitzer]

"Unionization" strikes fear only in the hearts of the Mark Emmerts of the college sports world. And coaches like Rene Portland (remember her?) or the guy that just got canned at Rutgers.

Geno? Muffet? Tara? They will never bat an eye and move forward.

Is it a horrible thing for the principle -- and practice -- of collective bargaining to be introduced to student-athletes in a practical way?

I don't think so.

I think the Republic will survive.

So will UConn.

 

[UcMiami]

Agree in #1.

Disagree on #2. Professional sports are unchanged in one vital way, pre- and post-unionization. The teams that are well-managed top-down and well-supported are teams that are consistent winners. And teams like the Florida Marlins evoke memories of the St. Louis Browns.

Ah ... but that is at the professional level and the franchises are all privately held entities (exception GB) - the NCAA and the whole organization of competition is undergoing significant change. Fielding a college football team is going to get a lot more expensive when they are considered employees and subject to employment taxes, etc. And interestingly for public universities in areas of the country that are politically hostile to unions, how much political support will erode when the old StateU is now losing $30M instead of $10M and not even finishing in the top half of their league.

 

[UcMiami]

"Unionization" strikes fear only in the hearts of the Mark Emmerts of the college sports world. And coaches like Rene Portland (remember her?) or the guy that just got canned at Rutgers.

Geno? Muffet? Tara? They will never bat an eye and move forward.

Is it a horrible thing for the principle -- and practice -- of collective bargaining to be introduced to student-athletes in a practical way?

I don't think so.

I think the Republic will survive.

So will UConn.

In theory I have no real problem, but I don't know that unionization really does much to address those instances that you bring up which were 'handled' - you can complain about the speed, but ... work situations with unions have had just as many issues some of which went on for much longer. And it adds just another layer of complication to an already complex situation. Classifying athletes as employees which is what unionization requires opens a rats nest of legal and tax issues as well.
And you can bet that Geno and Tara and Muffet would bat an eye, when the Union rep checks their watch and tells the coach in the middle of a drill, that a 15 minute break is now 10 minutes overdue and therefore the rest of practice is cancelled, effective immediately and please fill out form 1627-2 to explain why the rules were broken.

 

[doggydaddy]

You seem very touchy about DD and premature being used together. Are you concerned about something??

Yes.

I'm suffering from premature postulation.

 

[hjoerring]

Sometimes it is really difficult to tell which posts are set up with the sole intention of separating the true deciples from the scharl. Had I hesitated a bit longer I would not have risked being called a nay sayer a closeted Uconn/Geno hater. Well, I'll stay out of the rabbit hole and from the white fairy next time. Presuming it was an honest question, I thought Tomcat gave a good response- even if one could take issues here and there. F. ex., it is too earlier to say what impact the AAC will have on recruitment for wbb. I would not be surprise if the school has already outlined a research strategy to assess this over a given time (f.ex: asking recruits- following their decision- about anything they may have heard about the Conf. etc). No one is saying that the days of Uconn are numbered. Indeed, I'm more positive about the conf then 99% of the readers who daily trash it in the most shameless of ways possible. As someone who have been around when the BE started I do not see the parallel. Uconn came to separate itself from the pact (as ND would a bit later), but it never came into the BE as the superior team. I have not read Gary Blair's statement about his experiences at L'tec as a prediction of Uconn's fate, but as something that has happened worthy of addressing. Of course there are many here who can but scream high about 'we are not them ....' I do not know that Uconn cannot continue its dominance for ever, or that like a good number of processes it too returns to ashes. I do not worry one way or the other. I simply enjoy the moment/times. I really cannot say that these years were a lot better and more enjoyable then the earlier ones when the team played in what used to be called the Field House with its leaking roof. I went to some of those games and we would win one and lose two. As for the AAC, the only thing that worries me is the fact that it might be unstable. They are far too many schools that want out and are verbal over it. Something I find shameless and classless. Perhaps the boneyarders can take a oath to stop trashing our conf., afterall we cannot blame the teams it for not being Uconn.

 

[UcMiami]

Sometimes it is really difficult to tell which posts are set up with the sole intention of separating the true deciples from the scharl. Had I hesitated a bit longer I would not have risked being called a nay sayer a closeted Uconn/Geno hater. Well, I'll stay out of the rabbit hole and from the white fairy next time. Presuming it was an honest question, I thought Tomcat gave a good response- even if one could take issues here and there. F. ex., it is too earlier to say what impact the AAC will have on recruitment for wbb. I would not be surprise if the school has already outlined a research strategy to assess this over a given time (f.ex: asking recruits- following their decision- about anything they may have heard about the Conf. etc). No one is saying that the days of Uconn are numbered. Indeed, I'm more positive about the conf then 99% of the readers who daily trash it in the most shameless of ways possible. As someone who have been around when the BE started I do not see the parallel. Uconn came to separate itself from the pact (as ND would a bit later), but it never came into the BE as the superior team. I have not read Gary Blair's statement about his experiences at L'tec as a prediction of Uconn's fate, but as something that has happened worthy of addressing. Of course there are many here who can but scream high about 'we are not them ....' I do not know that Uconn cannot continue its dominance for ever, or that like a good number of processes it too returns to ashes. I do not worry one way or the other. I simply enjoy the moment/times. I really cannot say that these years were a lot better and more enjoyable then the earlier ones when the team played in what used to be called the Field House with its leaking roof. I went to some of those games and we would win one and lose two. As for the AAC, the only thing that worries me is the fact that it might be unstable. They are far too many schools that want out and are verbal over it. Something I find shameless and classless. Perhaps the boneyarders can take a oath to stop trashing our conf., afterall we cannot blame the teams it for not being Uconn.

FYI - What I took away most from Blair's statement was financial and facility support which is why I thought he was wrong. Uconn has two and a half home venues which while certainly no longer state of the art are not bad. And they will shortly have a state of the art practice facility that should stand up to competition for at least 15 years. In terms of budget, one cannot exactly predict the future but they have a nice TV contract and not a lot of competition in the state for sports dollars. And their current budget is right at the top of the heap and self sustaining at the moment (in the black.) And they are a media darling at the moment. In contrast, LaTech was operating in the dark ages of WCBB when very few people cared or knew who was the best team. Facilities, budget, travel, and competition for sporting interest in state was all a problem.

 

[doggydaddy]

FYI - What I took away most from Blair's statement was financial and facility support which is why I thought he was wrong. Uconn has two and a half home venues which while certainly no longer state of the art are not bad. And they will shortly have a state of the art practice facility that should stand up to competition for at least 15 years. In terms of budget, one cannot exactly predict the future but they have a nice TV contract and not a lot of competition in the state for sports dollars. And their current budget is right at the top of the heap and self sustaining at the moment (in the black.) And they are a media darling at the moment. In contrast, LaTech was operating in the dark ages of WCBB when very few people cared or knew who was the best team. Facilities, budget, travel, and competition for sporting interest in state was all a problem.

I really like Blair, but he is comparing apples and oranges. Maybe more like hamburger and steak. You make some great points in facilities and budget.

I would add that the conference situations were totally different.

Barmore started with LaTech when they were independent for 5 years, getting to the final four 3 times and the championship game twice.

They moved to the American South Conference for 4 years, winning the NC once and getting to the Final Four 3 time. His last year on that conference was terrible, going 18-12.

LaTech moved once again to the Sun Belt Conference where, in 10 years he dominated the conference, winning 30 games 7 times and getting to the final four 3 times and the championship game twice.

They moved to the WAC his last season. It was after he retired that the team started to falter but the new coach had two excellent seasons before it started to happen.

While he brought his team to the final four several times, they only won one championship.

Compare that to Geno and Uconn? Not even close. Maybe after Geno retires but until then, Uconn will be Uconn, great players will want to play for Geno.

 

[Kibitzer]

In theory I have no real problem, but I don't know that unionization really does much to address those instances that you bring up which were 'handled' - you can complain about the speed, but ... work situations with unions have had just as many issues some of which went on for much longer. And it adds just another layer of complication to an already complex situation. Classifying athletes as employees which is what unionization requires opens a rats nest of legal and tax issues as well.
And you can bet that Geno and Tara and Muffet would bat an eye, when the Union rep checks their watch and tells the coach in the middle of a drill, that a 15 minute break is now 10 minutes overdue and therefore the rest of practice is cancelled, effective immediately and please fill out form 1627-2 to explain why the rules were broken.

Your points are well made and deserve consideration, if not concern. I honestly don't envision this type of situation developing, and I hope I am either naive or optimistic, or both.

Two things I do foresee:

1. Some form of unionization of players now seems inevitable. If so, those in power shoulc be sensible and focus on issues that need attention, without disrupting well-established and respected traditions that make intercollegiate athletics a wonderful part of the American culture.

2. Having said that, a prime example of an issue deserving attention (and now getting it only because it has been taken to the courts) is that of universities blatantly reaping huge profits through use of athletes' names (e.g., football jerseys with numbers, even names, on them).​

So this will play out over the next few years and we all hope the results are positive.

 

[UcMiami]

Your points are well made and deserve consideration, if not concern. I honestly don't envision this type of situation developing, and I hope I am either naive or optimistic, or both.

Two things I do foresee:

1. Some form of unionization of players now seems inevitable. If so, those in power shoulc be sensible and focus on issues that need attention, without disrupting well-established and respected traditions that make intercollegiate athletics a wonderful part of the American culture.

2. Having said that, a prime example of an issue deserving attention (and now getting it only because it has been taken to the courts) is that of universities blatantly reaping huge profits through use of athletes' names (e.g., football jerseys with numbers, even names, on them).​

So this will play out over the next few years and we all hope the results are positive.

And my dark forecast:
1. I do not think this is a foregone conclusion - a union requires that athletes be defined as workers and I believe that is a long way from being established. If it gets to the current supreme court (and it would) I doubt it survives.
2. While the university is taking in royalties on merchandise, that is a far cry from making profit and the proceeds are being plowed back into the athletic department to pay for benefits being provided to athletes - there are maybe 10 or 20 athletic departments that make a profit each year and that profit is either put into a infrastructure reserve for future upgrades, or put back into the university as scholarship funding or other benefits for the students. Every other athletic department takes money from their university to meet their expenses in fees applied to the general student population or from the university general fund, or in the case of state schools from the state's revenue (taxes.) Now you can look at some of the salaries of coaches and say ... that is an outrageous amount of money for them to be making when the players aren't getting paid but ask the Alabama players if they want to fire the coach and search for a replacement at a reasonable salary of say $200,000 and i suspect you would have a landslide in favor of keeping their coach.
(NB - I figure a football player is getting compensated about $200,000 per year in scholarship, facilities, coaching, training, gear, etc. the scholarship is just the tip of the cost to the university for supporting an athlete.)

What you may end up with, and I really do think this is headed in that direction is 'college' football teams being separated from the actual school as an incorporated entity so that they no longer have to support the rest of the athletic department - except they will have to lease the facilities. And then the Athletic departments will shrink to unrecognizable size - Men's and women's basketball which will balance for title IX at most schools, and maybe a few other teams here and there - the rest turned into club sports.
And a number of those separate entities will fold after ten years of losing seasons and 'conferences' will realign, and scholarship will disappear into pay, and if players actually want to get an education ... sorry, better do it in the off season because I am paying you and that means you are here 8-5 during the season. And then you have a minor league system for the NFL. You want to sell your own Jersey and make money - great, but there is a royalty payment on each jersey to the university to use the name.

 

[Buzzyboy]

To be fair, I think the naysayers were talking a little further down the road. We've got one year (technically ten months, but who's counting?) of the AAC under our belt. I don't think anyone thought UConn WCBB was just going to go from winning a national championship to non-existent in a single year. Let's see how things shake out in five years when Geno has recruited his last class and is more focused on finding a successor. Hopefully we aren't in the AAC in five years from now to find out.

I surely wouldn't presume that Geno has even had a millisecond of thought in regard to when he might have had enough and a lot of that has to do with what you saw in the last moment or two of the title game when first Stef and then Bria came off the court for the last time. He's invested in these kids and to be able to see and share that joy after a lot of hard work on everyone's part is really like a drug to Geno (IMHO) that I don't think he wants to get off of anytime soon. I would be shocked if he were to hang it up in that time frame.

 

[Buzzyboy]

Well for us naysayers, yes we were talking about down the road. I specifically was talking about after Geno leaves. That's when I think the AAC could hurt UCONN.

Right now, I don't think it's going to matter much. Unless there is a drop in budget, do to lost revenues from football. That could hurt things like recruiting, as in trips, etc. right now.

On the other hand, for the most part, being in the AAC doesn't help recruiting any either. UCONN HAS to tout it's OOC schedule, because it's conference schedule is so poor. Other schools don't have to do that. They can use their conference as a selling point, UCONN can't. It could be helpful though getting into markets like Texas though. That might be a plus.

But again, I don't think it's going to make a lot of difference until after Geno leaves. So this whole thread is pretty premature.

The success of both the men's and women's basketball teams have helped UConn immeasurably and I think even if times get tough that they will get whatever support from the university is necessary. The reason is because the amount of money invested in Storrs over the last number of years was fed in good part by the success of UConn basketball and when you have a brilliant diamond you have to continue to show it off and allow it to dazzle. The reason UConn has done such a marvelous job in recruiting valedictorians and salutorians over the past number of years is also attributable to the investment in facilities that started with that same basketball success. Our stature as a public university has grown in good part by these teams. Why wouldn't they continue to be supported, even in tough times when they've led to so much good for our state. When you're in another part of the country (as I am) and Connecticut is mentioned, one of the very first things mentioned is our phenomenal basketball success. It's put Connecticut on the map for a whole lot of people who prior to 1985 might not have even known where Connecticut was.

 

[Kibitzer]

And my dark forecast:
1. I do not think this is a foregone conclusion - a union requires that athletes be defined as workers and I believe that is a long way from being established. If it gets to the current supreme court (and it would) I doubt it survives.
2. While the university is taking in royalties on merchandise, that is a far cry from making profit and the proceeds are being plowed back into the athletic department to pay for benefits being provided to athletes - there are maybe 10 or 20 athletic departments that make a profit each year and that profit is either put into a infrastructure reserve for future upgrades, or put back into the university as scholarship funding or other benefits for the students. Every other athletic department takes money from their university to meet their expenses in fees applied to the general student population or from the university general fund, or in the case of state schools from the state's revenue (taxes.) Now you can look at some of the salaries of coaches and say ... that is an outrageous amount of money for them to be making when the players aren't getting paid but ask the Alabama players if they want to fire the coach and search for a replacement at a reasonable salary of say $200,000 and i suspect you would have a landslide in favor of keeping their coach.
(NB - I figure a football player is getting compensated about $200,000 per year in scholarship, facilities, coaching, training, gear, etc. the scholarship is just the tip of the cost to the university for supporting an athlete.)

What you may end up with, and I really do think this is headed in that direction is 'college' football teams being separated from the actual school as an incorporated entity so that they no longer have to support the rest of the athletic department - except they will have to lease the facilities. And then the Athletic departments will shrink to unrecognizable size - Men's and women's basketball which will balance for title IX at most schools, and maybe a few other teams here and there - the rest turned into club sports.
And a number of those separate entities will fold after ten years of losing seasons and 'conferences' will realign, and scholarship will disappear into pay, and if players actually want to get an education ... sorry, better do it in the off season because I am paying you and that means you are here 8-5 during the season. And then you have a minor league system for the NFL. You want to sell your own Jersey and make money - great, but there is a royalty payment on each jersey to the university to use the name.

 

[UcMiami]

View attachment 5847

Sorry - for some reason I have gotten a little passionate about this and I guess I spout on!
I hate what the NCAA has become in many respects, but I really fear what comes next.
And the idea of Johnny Football getting big fat checks on his way to a pro career while 70% of his teammates are slogging away for the love of the game with no chance of being pros is a little offensive.
The best ad I have seen for the NCAA is the one with the '90% of scholarship athletes are going pro in something other than their sport'.

 

[cockhrnleghrn]

"Unionization" strikes fear only in the hearts of the Mark Emmerts of the college sports world. And coaches like Rene Portland (remember her?) or the guy that just got canned at Rutgers.

Geno? Muffet? Tara? They will never bat an eye and move forward.

Is it a horrible thing for the principle -- and practice -- of collective bargaining to be introduced to student-athletes in a practical way?

I don't think so.

I think the Republic will survive.

So will UConn.

There are 2 reasons I hate Penn State: When I was growing up in New Jersey, the bullies of the neighborhood were Penn State fans and her. Come to think of it, she was a bully, too.

 

[cockhrnleghrn]

FYI - What I took away most from Blair's statement was financial and facility support which is why I thought he was wrong. Uconn has two and a half home venues which while certainly no longer state of the art are not bad. And they will shortly have a state of the art practice facility that should stand up to competition for at least 15 years. In terms of budget, one cannot exactly predict the future but they have a nice TV contract and not a lot of competition in the state for sports dollars. And their current budget is right at the top of the heap and self sustaining at the moment (in the black.) And they are a media darling at the moment. In contrast, LaTech was operating in the dark ages of WCBB when very few people cared or knew who was the best team. Facilities, budget, travel, and competition for sporting interest in state was all a problem.

I think the issue is more football-related. Men's Basketball is self-sufficient, and makes a decent amount of money. WBB breaks even, at best, but it's football that provides the income to support every other sport and build facilities used across all sports, like academic centers, etc.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

It's only premature based on if you thought recruiting would suffer only after Geno left. I agree. After Geno is certainly a different story. But my post was not to those who thought that but those who thought that recruiting would suffer because of the weak AAC. There where plenty of those posts.

No one has ever convinced me why recruiting would suffer in the AAC as long as UConn is a top national team. UConn will be a top national team as long as Geno is there. Ergo, what are these folks talking about???

OTH, my argument has always been that - post Geno - if you are not out of the American I see all sorts of issues. Including the financial issue raised by others.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

And my dark forecast:

2. While the university is taking in royalties on merchandise, that is a far cry from making profit and the proceeds are being plowed back into the athletic department to pay for benefits being provided to athletes - there are maybe 10 or 20 athletic departments that make a profit each year and that profit is either put into a infrastructure reserve for future upgrades, or put back into the university as scholarship funding or other benefits for the students. Every other athletic department takes money from their university to meet their expenses in fees applied to the general student population or from the university general fund, or in the case of state schools from the state's revenue (taxes.) Now you can look at some of the salaries of coaches and say ... that is an outrageous amount of money for them to be making when the players aren't getting paid but ask the Alabama players if they want to fire the coach and search for a replacement at a reasonable salary of say $200,000 and i suspect you would have a landslide in favor of keeping their coach.

Thank you for pointing out what I was also going to - that athletic departments are often not money-makers.

And someone above suggested that many women's basketball programs make money. NO, NYET, NOT. I do fervently wish they did, and I know UConn has in some years, but the rest of WBB - not even close. A recent article was linked - here or on the RU board - about just how much some programs (Louisville was featured) lose, I just don't remember where to find it.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

Spot-on, DD. One at a time.

And as sure as the Lord provides little green apples, somebody in the Big 10 hierarchy will realize that "OOPS! What the hell were we thinking when we invited Rutgers cuz we thought they were hot in the huge and lucrative NYC TV market?" And, BTW, there are lots of TVs in New Enland -- and NYC!​

I gotta like our chances.

It is all about the rate they can charge for folks that have the Big Ten Network. If there is a school in the Big Ten and in the media market that gets the network, the rate the network gets from the distributor is higher. That is the key to Rutgers - it gave them the NY media market. It has nothing to do with folks actually watching the station, although I'm sure that they would love it if folks did.

You are correct that it is a large media market, apparently, that UConn would deliver, but I suspect there are other factors that would be what made you attractive. Get in the AAU if you want in, however, as the academic side is very important, Google it if you wish.

Also, FWIW, in 2012 we were talking to a fellow when we were on vacation who was on the Big Ten alumni student athlete advisory board and he was telling us that they wanted Rutgers for years, they just were waiting for a suitable partner (turned out to be Maryland).

 

[doggydaddy]

Bump with the commitment of Boykin.

Damn, conference is killing us.

 

[msf22b]

In theory I have no real problem, but I don't know that unionization really does much to address those instances that you bring up which were 'handled' - you can complain about the speed, but ... work situations with unions have had just as many issues some of which went on for much longer. And it adds just another layer of complication to an already complex situation. Classifying athletes as employees which is what unionization requires opens a rats nest of legal and tax issues as well.
And you can bet that Geno and Tara and Muffet would bat an eye, when the Union rep checks their watch and tells the coach in the middle of a drill, that a 15 minute break is now 10 minutes overdue and therefore the rest of practice is cancelled, effective immediately and please fill out form 1627-2 to explain why the rules were broken.

I recall the wonderful Dutch Organist/Conductor Gustav Leonhardt becoming quite irate and confused when I suggested that we were 20 minutes into overtime at his first rehearsal and that we needed to stop.

 

[MilfordHusky]

Bump with the commitment of Boykin.

Damn, conference is killing us.

Yeah, recruiting is going down the tubes. If all we can add to Collier and Boykin are Durr and Samuelson, this class will only be the BEST EVER.

 

[Geno-ista]

Yeah, recruiting is going down the tubes. If all we can add to Collier and Boykin are Durr and Samuelson, this class will only be the BEST EVER.

Imagine how good it would have been if we were already in the ACC or The Big!!!???

 

[EricSD]

Yeah, recruiting is going down the tubes. If all we can add to Collier and Boykin are Durr and Samuelson, this class will only be the BEST EVER.

Totally agree. Add in Brown to that class, or Butler to the guard quartet and you have 2 awful classes in a row . Now in Orange hell, they are now backpedaling "well, it will take TIME for the crappy new conference UCONN is in to have an impact. After all, this is the first year the new conference will officially be in place with RU and L'ville leaving, and no one will want to play in that conference down the road. But it will take recruits time to realize that".

So delusional. Geno just won back to back NC's. Storrs is the hoops capital of the world for the 2nd time in history, and both times it's been done by UCONN. That alone is a ridiculously impressive statistic. I'm betting if you list the top 10 things recruits look for, conference affiliation isn't even on the list. It probably comes in at about #15-20.

 

[Geno-ista]

Totally agree. Add in Brown to that class, or Butler to the guard quartet and you have 2 awful classes in a row . Now in Orange hell, they are now backpedaling "well, it will take TIME for the crappy new conference UCONN is in to have an impact. After all, this is the first year the new conference will officially be in place with RU and L'ville leaving, and no one will want to play in that conference down the road. But it will take recruits time to realize that".

So delusional. Geno just won back to back NC's. Storrs is the hoops capital of the world for the 2nd time in history, and both times it's been done by UCONN. That alone is a ridiculously impressive statistic. I'm betting if you list the top 10 things recruits look for, conference affiliation isn't even on the list. It probably comes in at about #15-20.

Also as impressive, we had 2 other opportunities for both programs to win simultaneous N Championships! I do think over time we will be better off in a better conference. But Geno and KO have helped make this transition "relatively seamless and painless"- don't you think???? I'm still euphoric!

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

As I've said before, recruiting for WBB should see little impact from conference, as long as the team competes at the level you are used to.

I also think MBB will be little affected, as long as they make deep NCAA runs going forward.

Women's recruits that you get are not only looking for post-season success (which is not conference dependent) but also the less measurable development benefits of being coached by Geno et al.

At the same time, there is no question in my mind that the over-all key to UConn continuing - long term - to be an over-all athletic success, you will need to get into a power conference. Alternatively, the American needs to make itself a power conference (in football), but that would be an uphill battle.

 

[sawxfan23]

We all just better hope than UConn will be allowed to match the "power 5 funding" or UConn athletics as a whole is in big big trouble.

 

[doggydaddy]

We all just better hope than UConn will be allowed to match the "power 5 funding" or UConn athletics as a whole is in big big trouble.

Unbelievable.