UConn/ACC

[billybud]

Some note, some notate, some regurgitate...I like to think that I verbally spontaneous ejaculate....

It is all for my own edification, after all.

 

[clmssun]

Obviously a biased metric. Florida State and Miami had the benefit of playing ACC teams, who are perennially over-ranked. Moreover, as the perennially best teams in the ACC, FSU and Miami were always a bit better than the ACC teams that deserved their ranks.

Show us record against out-of-conference end-of-year ranked teams.

Well, from 1980 to 1991, FSU was independent. From 1980 to 1990, Miami was independent, and from 1991 to 2003, Miami was Big East. Having the fewest conference games allowed Big East teams more out-of-conference flexibility than any other BA/BCS conference.

Can we agree that Nebraska and Oklahoma were titans for much of 1980 to 2013? Miami and Florida State owned them both over that period.

Miami and Florida State both blossomed beginning in 1980, both playing anyone anywhere.

Yes, Miami from 2004 to present has been down (and just now showing some signs of revival). As billybud will attest, FSU's recent "down" years were definitely a fall from grace (1987-2001) but hardly "down" by most standards.

 

[billybud]

Obviously a biased metric. Florida State and Miami had the benefit of playing ACC teams, who are perennially over-ranked. Moreover, as the perennially best teams in the ACC, FSU and Miami were always a bit better than the ACC teams that deserved their ranks.

Show us record against out-of-conference end-of-year ranked teams.

FSU had a high percentage of OOC games won against END YEAR RANKED TEAMS 1980-2013...NOTE...1980 through 1991...all teams FSU played counted as OOC...so if they were ranked..they counted.

Alabama....22-18-1-----.5487
USC.....30-30-1---------.500

FSU 51-53-1------------.4904

Some comparisons

Ohio State 20-24-1-----.4556

Texas 20-34-1-----------.3727

Michigan 22-35-1-------.3879

Oklahoma 19-39-1-------.3900

 

[btstimpy]

Some schools are difficult to compete with (Director's Cup-wise) because they field so many varsity teams. For example, Virginia Tech fields only 20 varsity sports (ranked 37th) to Stanford's 36 varsity sports (ranked 1st).

The Director's Cup is very important to a lot of conferences, especially the B1G. A good majority of the B1G's universities have close to 30 or more varsity sports. But like you, I feel many put too much weight into the Director's Cup. UConn ranked 57th, yet won 3 National Titles in Field Hockey, MBB and WBB. I don't know about you, but I'd take the 57th ranking with 3 National Titles versus a 37th ranking in the Director's Cup with no Titles.

Only the 10 best men's and 10 best women's sports are counted in the scoring. That limits the schools that have 30+ sports from counting them all. But it is true in the case of Stanford that with 36 sports, you'll have a better chance of having 20 that are really good than someone who only has 20 total. But that doesn't seem to slow down Texas. They have only 20 total and finish in the top 10 often.

The schools that really have trouble are the ones that only have 16 sports total. They really have to be very good in all of them to do well. And they also probably aren't P5 material. Schools that have 28 sports and rank poorly probably aren't either for different reasons.

 

[btstimpy]

I really think you put too much emphasis on the Director's Cup. Some of these sports are arcane.

I wish someone only looked at the team sports instead of, say, fencing. Now, I like fencing, but really now, that sport can give you the bump you need. Or equestrian. Or bowling. Or rifle?

football, baseball, softball, basketball, hockey, soccer, field hockey, lacrosse, volleyball. Let me know how schools are doing in these sports.

The Director's Cup isn't my measurement. It's the National Association of Collegiate Directors of Athletics. It's what the industry uses to measure Collegiate Athletics department competitive success and health. It's not unlike the USN&WR measurement for Academics that I know you don't like. These are the two things that the major conferences use to compare themselves.

There are a lot of very boring women's sports out there that no one cares about in place because of Title IX. It would be nice to be rid of that and cut many of them to have everyone play men's lacrosse, men's soccer, men's volleyball, and men's crew all of which are much more entertaining to watch from an athletic perspective. But unfortunately it's not working out that way.

 

[Sea Goat]

I'm glad you're happy. The Louisville athletics department has better on field/on court performance the past decade than either of the B1G additions, better facilities than both, better fiances than both, and more fan support than both. From every corner of the ACC, the fans do believe that the ACC just experienced an upgrade.

As for academics, the ACC remains the only Power 5 conference with 5 members in the top 30 in the nation and 8 in the top 50. Louisville does need some work in this area. There are plans to improve. The new B1G additions need a lot more work on the courts and fields. You will see it soon enough.

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Stimp, I had no desire to get involved with the give and take between you and Nicky N, but I can't resist. I see now (in case I missed it before) why you're an apologist for the ACC's addition of Louisville. I respect your serious Kentucky roots. However, spare us from the attempt to justify the Louisville add to the ACC in spite of woeful academics. It cheapens your credibility as your conference has already cheapened its credibility. (If Louisville really tries next year maybe it can finally surpass Maryland-Baltimore County or UMASS-Lowell in college rankings!) The rationale for the ACC's add of Louisville was riddled with inconsistencies. It was a decision that was apparently insisted upon by the football powers whom were undoubtedly egged on by the likes of Syra.... BC and others. It will hurt long term because the conference has had a chunk of its academic integrity eroded. Coupled with the worsening debacle at UNC , this is not good for the ACC. You say "Louisville does need some work in this area (academics)".
"Some work"? That's like saying that the North Koreans need "some work" in the human relations area.

 

[pj]

FSU had a high percentage of OOC games won against END YEAR RANKED TEAMS 1980-2013...

OK, you win. FSU has been a top football school for a long time, despite joining the ACC.

 

[upstater]

The Director's Cup isn't my measurement. It's the National Association of Collegiate Directors of Athletics. It's what the industry uses to measure Collegiate Athletics department competitive success and health. It's not unlike the USN&WR measurement for Academics that I know you don't like. These are the two things that the major conferences use to compare themselves.

There are a lot of very boring women's sports out there that no one cares about in place because of Title IX. It would be nice to be rid of that and cut many of them to have everyone play men's lacrosse, men's soccer, men's volleyball, and men's crew all of which are much more entertaining to watch from an athletic perspective. But unfortunately it's not working out that way.

I didn't say it was your measurement.

Also, women's sports are good measures. I was talking about bowling, rifle and fencing.

 

[btstimpy]

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Stimp, I had no desire to get involved with the give and take between you and Nicky N, but I can't resist. I see now (in case I missed it before) why you're an apologist for the ACC's addition of Louisville. I respect your serious Kentucky roots. However, spare us from the attempt to justify the Louisville add to the ACC in spite of woeful academics. It cheapens your credibility as your conference has already cheapened its credibility. (If Louisville really tries next year maybe it can finally surpass Maryland-Baltimore County or UMASS-Lowell in college rankings!) The rationale for the ACC's add of Louisville was riddled with inconsistencies. It was a decision that was apparently insisted upon by the football powers whom were undoubtedly egged on by the likes of Syra.... BC and others. It will hurt long term because the conference has had a chunk of its academic integrity eroded. Coupled with the worsening debacle at UNC , this is not good for the ACC. You say "Louisville does need some work in this area (academics)".
"Some work"? That's like saying that the North Koreans need "some work" in the human relations area.

Like I have said before Yale wasn't available. I'd actually like to see the ACC add Pennsylvania for good Philly presence and the opportunty to play at Franklin Field and the Palestra. Mr. Franklin's school would work perfectly with Mr. Jefferson's. UVA has work to do to try to even the Penn-UVA football series recors. Penn is way ahead. We don't need Harvard or Cornell because we have other schools in those markets. Princeton could work, but I prefer Penn. Columbia stinks. Their fooball stadium is a joke. Brown and Dartmouth are not interesting. The Big East already owns the Providence market. But these schools said no, and outside of that no top 50 academic program was there, so the league chose to add a competitive athletics program. Rice might have worked, but they are kind of really far away and rather small. Georgetown had an outside shot, but their football stadium is worse than Columbia. They'd have to strike a deal with the Redskins and get swallowed in FedEx field.

Consequently academics took a back seat, but there is opportunity for Louisville to improve. But that is water under the bridge. The league needs one more to get to 16.

 

[upstater]

Like I have said before Yale wasn't available. I'd actually like to see the ACC add Pennsylvania for good Philly presence and the opportunty to play at Franklin Field and the Palestra. Mr. Franklin's school would work perfectly with Mr. Jefferson's. UVA has work to do to try to even the Penn-UVA football series recors. Penn is way ahead. We don't need Harvard or Cornell because we have other schools in those markets. Princeton could work, but I prefer Penn. Columbia stinks. Their fooball stadium is a joke. Brown and Dartmouth are not interesting. The Big East already owns the Providence market. But these schools said no, and outside of that no top 50 academic program was there, so the league chose to add a competitive athletics program. Rice might have worked, but they are kind of really far away and rather small.

Academics took a back seat, but there is opportunity for Louisville to improve.

You could have added West Virginia. Better football, better academics.

 

[btstimpy]

You could have added West Virginia. Better football, better academics.

I think too many of their former conference mates would have to really be talked into dealing with WVU fans again. I don't have issue with WVU. They have always been an easy win for UVA. They caused us to lose our Pep Band though. We beat the crap out of their football team and made West Virginia jokes during halftime with the band. They got all flustered. But the Hokies want little to do with them. Schools like Pitt and Virginia Tech would have to sponsor them. I don't get a sense that they want to.

 

[dayooper]

Consequently academics took a back seat, but there is opportunity for Louisville to improve. But that is water under the bridge. The league needs one more to get to 16.

2 more, 16 only matters in football.

 

[upstater]

I think too many of their former conference mates would have to really be talked into dealing with WVU fans again. I don't have issue with WVU. They have always been an easy win for UVA. They caused us to lose our Pep Band though. We beat the crap out of their football team and made West Virginia jokes during halftime with the band. They got all flustered. But the Hokies want little to do with them. Schools like Pitt and Virginia Tech would have to sponsor them. I don't get a sense that they want to.

WVU had some of the best fans in the conference. As for how good they are competitively on the football field, they dominated the BE from 2004-2012. And they had 3 big BCS bowl victories in that time as well.

 

[NickyNewark]

I think too many of their former conference mates would have to really be talked into dealing with WVU fans again. I don't have issue with WVU. They have always been an easy win for UVA. They caused us to lose our Pep Band though. We beat the crap out of their football team and made West Virginia jokes during halftime with the band. They got all flustered. But the Hokies want little to do with them. Schools like Pitt and Virginia Tech would have to sponsor them. I don't get a sense that they want to.

I think WV just scored again against Clemson!?!

 

[NickyNewark]

I think too many of their former conference mates would have to really be talked into dealing with WVU fans again. I don't have issue with WVU. They have always been an easy win for UVA. They caused us to lose our Pep Band though. We beat the crap out of their football team and made West Virginia jokes during halftime with the band. They got all flustered. But the Hokies want little to do with them. Schools like Pitt and Virginia Tech would have to sponsor them. I don't get a sense that they want to.

Even I loved the "backyard brawl"...the Pitt fan's and ACC don't want a great rivalry?

 

[NickyNewark]

WVU had some of the best fans in the conference. As for how good they are competitively on the football field, they dominated the BE from 2004-2012. And they had 3 big BCS bowl victories in that time as well.

As I've often said.....delusional AND arrogant!! Wow,what a combination.

 

[Calamitous]

Only the 10 best men's and 10 best women's sports are counted in the scoring. That limits the schools that have 30+ sports from counting them all. But it is true in the case of Stanford that with 36 sports, you'll have a better chance of having 20 that are really good than someone who only has 20 total. But that doesn't seem to slow down Texas. They have only 20 total and finish in the top 10.

Very good points. Stanford, Michigan, PSU and OSU are great examples of your point. FSU is a lot like Texas in that they don't have an obscene number of varsity sports, but do quite well in the DC.

But I'll trade my 37th place in the DC for 100th place and a National Championship in ANY sport. My school is one of the few P5 schools that haven't won a NC in any NCAA sport.

 

[Calamitous]

You could have added West Virginia. Better football, better academics.

Better football history at WVU. UL and WVU are ranked similarly in academics. WVU would be top 100 academically if 1) they refused more in-state applicants and threw away their land grant mission and 2) if West Virginia had a few more million residents to pull from. Back to my number 1 point... I'm impressed that WVU holds true to their roots. It's very admirable. They are a much better school than people give them credit.

 

[Calamitous]

Even I loved the "backyard brawl"...the Pitt fan's and ACC don't want a great rivalry?

The "front yard" brawl was better IMO.

 

[btstimpy]

Very good points. Stanford, Michigan, PSU and OSU are great examples of your point. FSU is a lot like Texas in that they don't have an obscene number of varsity sports, but do quite well in the DC.

But I'll trade my 37th place in the DC for 100th place and a National Championship in ANY sport. My school is one of the few P5 schools that haven't won a NC in any NCAA sport.

I think that's because VT put all of its resources into football for so long over the other sports. That one is so difficult. With the other 19 sports VT participates in, they can spread some resources and win something. Maybe this new AD has that in mind. But Hokies live for football, so perhaps not.

 

[btstimpy]

I think WV just scored again against Clemson!?!

Didn't see that one. Was on a flight back from New Orleans. I did see the 48-22 crushing UVA put on WVU in Charlotte. Rich Rodriquez didn't know what hit him.

 

[upstater]

Better football history at WVU. UL and WVU are ranked similarly in academics. WVU would be top 100 academically if 1) they refused more in-state applicants and threw away their land grant mission and 2) if West Virginia had a few more million residents to pull from. Back to my number 1 point... I'm impressed that WVU holds true to their roots. It's very admirable. They are a much better school than people give them credit.

There are AAU schools ranked near Louisville's spot in the UNWR rankings, which tells you how off and awful those rankings are. Real world, West Virginia is a better school. And better at football. But not better at basketball.

 

[upstater]

Didn't see that one. Was on a flight back from New Orleans. I did see the 48-22 crushing UVA put on WVU in Charlotte. Rich Rodriquez didn't know what hit him.

Rich Rodriguez had UConn's number. He was the best of the BE. The same year that UConn was crushing UVa 45-10, UConn lost to WV 31-13. One game doesn't mean much.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

I just don't see UConn to the B1G. Adding three schools in the last five years is an extremely radical departure from where they've been historically, and they felt it was forced on them by circumstances elsewhere. However, all things being equal, they will always prefer stasis to chaos.

The B1G just took the lions share of the nations largest market. I seriously need to have something like that "forced on" me.

 

[NickyNewark]

The B1G just took the lions share of the nations largest market. I seriously need to have something like that "forced on" me.

I love reading you're posts. These ACC guys have a arrogant way of telling us they want us in the ACC BUT somehow they don't see UConn, a large state flagbearing state school in the B1G!?! What? I heard the same BS about RU UNTIL they were there then they'll say well only because Cuse and Pitt were off the board...WHAT PSU was gonna let Pitt in? Cuse knew they were never gonna get into the B1G so(facesaving) fled before it became a reality when the B1G made their move on RU/Md and if not for BC/Cuse you guys would have been Md's replacement.We RU fans figured it was a "done deal"UConn to ACC"...ahh politics and jealousy...a heady potion!! I'm living for the day it becomes the new reality(UConn is B1G) to see their arrogant ACC faces!!

 

[RegisteredUconn]

Football is one sport. It's the most popular no doubt, but you have to have a minimum of 15 sports to be classified Division I to compete in Division I football. A school can suck at everything else it does and win football championships if it wants to. That would be a football factory. Virginia Tech did that for years. They are now at least trying to compete in other stuff. To each his own.

Welcome back stimpy. Sounds like you're tan (although I'm not entirely sure what a "tan" sounds like) and rested from your self-imposed exile. Congrats on the ACC basketball championship.

Actually, I wouldn't even include football in the rankings since they don't hold a championship playoff. Beyond that, I suspect that whatever luster the Director's Cup has is due, in part to its longevity, and part to the fact that's a product of the athletic departments that offer it an appearance of legitimacy. How the AD's saw fit to offer the same weight to lightly contested sports as they do the most fiercely contested is anybody's guess but it sounds political. Offering the same value to bowling as it does to basketball dramatically reduces its validity.

Best wishes, and see you guys down the road in the B1G.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

The points are weighted to a degree in the Director's Cup. First place finishes all get 100 points, but after that it's weighted by participation like you suggest. Third place in baseball gets 83. Third in Women's Water Polo gets 72.5. Third in Men's Volleyball gets 25.

Interesting that the AD's give credence to a concept, weighting, they are uncommitted to.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

Yes, we do unfortunately have those types of individuals but, fortunately, they're a recalcitrant minority that loves to only annoy people and give the impression that they represent more than themselves.

BTW, everyone else, including FSU, decided to stay put and work to better the conference. So no further departures are expected. This kind of stability would be attractive to a school like UConn.

Stability is attractive but the lack of movement based on a lack of offers shouldn't be confused with stability. The Big East was "stable" till the offers started pouring in.

 

[NickyNewark]

Once your poached(MD) like the OBE and the bloods in the water its hard to keep the "Sharks" at bay! Either way both the B12 and ACC are bound to take more hits !! The ACC better hope before that happens ND goes all in or it will never regain its perception of stability. The fact is ND is more respected(not that their worthy of that respect.."perception") than the whole ACC put together and thats sad but what you get with the odd mix of schools. The B12 is as solid as Texahoma's loyalty.