OT: Transgender Athletes, A new Video

[Ozimoto]

That may be the best approach, but as you say there is no way to address this issue that will make everyone happy.

 

[Essexdave]

I don't think there's any way to resolve this issue that would make everybody happy. Making a "transgender" division wouldn't work; there are too few transgender people and they cover a vast range of physiology.

Allowing born male transgender people to compete in female divisions without restriction essentially marks the end of biological female competition at the elite level (and also down the line). Even worse is that mixed in with true trans people, you'll have people pressured or incentivized by their countries to pretend to identify as female merely to win championships, medals, etc.

Forcing people to compete in the biological sex of their birth certificate, by itself, doesn't eliminate issues. There's a case in Texas where a boy who was born a girl has been forced to compete in the girls' wrestling division, even though he's taking male hormones as part of his transition (he dominates there, of course). That doesn't get into the social humiliation of the policy which essentially tells you that your identity is worthless, or the exclusionary policy of simply banning them from all competition.

My own imperfect solution is as follows: since gender has grown more complex in ways that can no longer neatly accommodate male and female divisions, I propose replacing them with "unrestricted" and "restricted" divisions.

The unrestricted division will be for biologically born boys, trans girls with male pattern development/testosterone levels, and transitioned trans boys with male-like hormones (while still limiting the amount of testosterone, etc. allowable to normal male levels for all groups).

The restricted division will be for biologically born girls and certain subsets of trans girls with very clearly defined criteria: e.g., trans girls with well documented continual suppression of male hormones since before puberty - that suppression would need to continue while they compete in the restricted division, of course. Also the small subset of trans girls with androgen insensitivity syndrome or similar conditions.

Took me two reads to get your proposal. Nice job. I’m not informed enough re “subsets of trans girls” but see your goal of protecting girls women’s sports while offering everyone an opportunity to compete in an unrestricted division.

 

[Adios]

Transgendered women would take over women's sports and they would surpass those born females, easily. Definitely a lot more dunking.

There are men (or boys) who'll go transgender just for such an opportunity.

 

[Roger G]

I hope a mod shuts this thread down quickly — it won’t end well.

I hope this discussion is not shut down and the debate remains civil. But this debate is enormously important to the future of women's sports.

As a father of two girls this will be my only statement and I don't care to go deeper or debate:

Equality does not equal same. This is a good place to start. Once you get past this obvious fact, then we can embrace our differences instead of forcing narratives. There is a reason why they test in the Olympics to create a playing field that is fair.

As I understand it, they stopped sex testing at the Olympics some time ago.

 

[dogged1]

Transgendered women would take over women's sports and they would surpass those born females, easily. Definitely a lot more dunking.

There are men (or boys) who'll go transgender just for such an opportunity.

Ugh, I couldn't imagine. Terrible indictment of humanity if true.

 

[Adios]

Ugh, I couldn't imagine. Terrible indictment of humanity if true.

When coinage was invented, counterfeits showed up very quickly.

 

[tzznandrew]

There are men (or boys) who'll go transgender just for such an opportunity.

LOL. For that sweet sweet cash.

Oh....wait...

 

[Los24]

I hope this discussion is not shut down and the debate remains civil. But this debate is enormously important to the future of women's sports.

As I understand it, they stopped sex testing at the Olympics some time ago.

Correct now they can do hormone testing even though the athlete must demonstrate that their total testosterone level in serum has been below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to their first competition. This while women are normally at 3 and men range typically from 7 to 30 (from what I understand but I am not a professional in the space.)

The broader point was there was an effort to have some fair playing field. They have kept changing and lessing it for PC purposes.

 

[Adios]

LOL. For that sweet sweet cash.

Oh....wait...

Who said everything is about money?

 

[PoppaBear]

Hurdler born male but competing as female easily takes NCAA women's national championship | Blaze Media

CeCe Telfer won the 400-meter hurdles by more than a second

www.theblaze.com

Just not fair to the other athletes. A year and 4 months earlier she was competing on the men's team at the same school.

 

[willtalk]

For some reason, People seem incapable of recognizing the end result of issues they support. It was all ways inevitable that this issue was going to bring about the end of all the gains made for women due to Tittle 9. So that a few individuals can use sports as another medium to reinforce their own frail sense of identity all the advances that were made through title 9 and the years of gains for women and girls in sports should be flushed down the toilet? Gains for one group should never come at the expense of ridiculous losses for another group. This is totally irrational.

 

[Bama fan]

If and when a body of medical and scientific experts can establish the "limits" of testosterone that "separate " male from female, any athlete who chooses to compete in a contest that suits their gender identity and who exceeds acceptable levels could compete, have their standing marked by an asterisk, and any participants below the limits place without asterisks. Then everyone knows where they placed, and no one has to compete where they do not feel comfortable. So first place asterisk category wins asterisk category, and first place no asterisk is first place no asterisk. The "girls" compete against other "girls", and those above the "limit' compete against others above the limit. If we are all running some race, and a motorcyclist passes all of us, the motorcyclist clearly crosses the finish line first, and the first place runner is clearly the winner too. No one would be duped! Those racing without a motorcycle know who won and who didn't! It is the determination of what constitutes undue advantage in a competitive situation that must be settled. The rest should follow in a straightforward way. No one should feel "left out" or disadvantaged.

 

[tzznandrew]

She didn't win everything she did. She didn't dominate. She won one Division II event and lost others. Didn't even qualify for the final heat in some. Reading the full thread of tweets is worth it even if you disagree with the language of "transphobe" in the first one.

 

[j66kicker]

She didn't win everything she did. She didn't dominate. She won one Division II event and lost others. Didn't even qualify for the final heat in some. Reading the full thread of tweets is worth it even if you disagree with the language of "transphobe" in the first one.

So if I think a male changing to a female and then competing in female school sports is not fair, then I'm a "transphobe"? OK I'm a transphobe then.

 

[tzznandrew]

So if I think a male changing to a female and then competing in female school sports is not fair, then I'm a "transphobe"? OK I'm a transphobe then.

LOL

I take it you didn't click on the Tweet and read the thread or even read my preface closely?

I said the thread was worth reading even if you thought there was a problem with her language. I imagined that might be a problem, and if I were her I wouldn't have phrased it that way for this very reason. But the full thread is worth the click even if you object to that.

 

[j66kicker]

LOL

I take it you didn't click on the Tweet and read the thread or even read my preface closely?

I said the thread was worth reading even if you thought there was a problem with her language. I imagined that might be a problem, and if I were her I wouldn't have phrased it that way for this very reason. But the full thread is worth the click even if you object to that.

I did read your preface and I should have clarified that I'm apparently not a full-fledged transphobe since I don't post the pictures...

OK I went back and read the whole Parker Molloy thread. I've followed the Caster Semenya story a little bit, and don't have a good solution any more than anyone else does. It's a tough issue, and I don't sense there is any intentional unfairness going on. On the surface it appears (to me) as a natural hormone situation which unfortunately falls (way) on the wrong side of a well-intentioned but arbitrary limit driven by both the policing of illegal steroids and establishing female gender. Was she intentionally targeted with the testosterone reduction rule for hyperandrogenous athletes? Well, since she was the red flag which called out for some rule, then I guess you could say she was targeted. But IMO that could mean "targeted" in an attempt to be fair to the overwhelming majority/rank and file, and not necessarily "targeted" with a racist agenda as some are claiming.

In any case I don't see the Caster Semenya thing as the same issue as "born male / competing as female". Some in the thread are all bent that the only time people complain is when the trans person actually wins. Duh?? Isn't that when you would expect they'd complain? IMO let people be who they want/need to be, but if you were born a male then you need to forego competing against natural females in physical female sports.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

tough issue. I know I don't have any answers. I do have my "points I do consider important"

1 - sports should be fair. It may never be perfectly so, but as others have noted, weight classes, age classification, big school vs. small school divisions, DI vs DIII - in may ways we classify sports to be fair.
2 - some (I doubt all) females that were once males will have an athletic advantage over born and still females. But then again, you can't have rules that single out "some" and not "all"
3 - trans folks have a right to be respected - (its not a political correctness thing with me, I believe so far as possible I should respect everyone's rights) - it would be inappropriate to my mind to make them compete in their birth sex, never mind the complications of that discussed earlier in this thread. And it isn't really fair to prevent athletes from competing at all.

I don't know where this takes us, I suppose those talking about testosterone measurements and such probably have the right of it. But I agree with all that it is a very real problem that needs a solution.

 

[cockhrnleghrn]

It's so unfair to women. This should not be allowed.

Transgender women ARE women. Transgender men ARE men.