OT: Transgender Athletes, A new Video

[Aluminny69]

Thoughts? Personally, the fairest solution is to create a new category. Men compete against men, Women compete against women, and Transgender compete against transgender only.

 

[Shorty Dee]

I already think they are playing in College as well as in the WNBA.

 

[Argonaut]

I hope a mod shuts this thread down quickly — it won’t end well.

 

[Lawrence]

It's so unfair to women. This should not be allowed.

 

[Lawrence]

I'd like to hear what some of the WNBA athletes have to say. If I recall correctly Martina Navratilova spoke up and was crucified by many. Not fair.

 

[HuskyNan]

I'd like to hear what some of the WNBA athletes have to say. If I recall correctly Martina Navratilova spoke up and was crucified by many. Not fair.

These Athletes Demand Equality for Transgender People in College Sports

“Today, I ask Power 5 schools to take an easy step to support the trans community."

www.teenvogue.com

 

[HuskyNan]

I hope a mod shuts this thread down quickly — it won’t end well.

We’ll see. I hope everyone is adult enough to discuss the issue thoughtfully

 

[Blakeon18]

andraya yearwood terry miller - Google Search

www.google.com

This is a significant issue...imo...and will only get bigger.
The link is to articles about a couple of transgender girls right here in lil' olde Ct.

As I understand it, the Ct. high school association only requires that the student declare that she 'identifies'
herself as a girl. That sure would take some courage...should some kind of treatment be required as well?
Navritalova being shunned by transgender advocates for her stance is a tad bizarre given her history.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

There is nothing sensible to debate here. It is only because some twiisted misconception of rights and equity tied up in PC culture that this issue has any life. Organized sports have always involved categorizations to level the playing field: age groups, gender, weight class, professional and amateur, and drug control are some of the most obvious. These guys who would be self identified girls have had a lifetime of performance enhancing drugs steadily building up in their bodies. If the girls who they claim a right to "compete" with were taking those drugs they would be DQed. This spectacle makes the sport involved less a sport, discourages rightlful participants, and creates hostility in the community. Gender rules are there because they make sense and are grounded in fairness. Breaking them to accomodate a few in order to pat ourselves on the back is utterly misguided.

 

[HuskyNan]

There is nothing sensible to debate here. It is only because some twiisted misconception of rights and equity tied up in PC culture that this issue has any life. Organized sports have always involved categorizations to level the playing field: age groups, gender, weight class, professional and amateur, and drug control are some of the most obvious. These guys who would be self identified girls have had a lifetime of performance enhancing drugs steadily building up in their bodies. If the girls who they claim a right to "compete" with were taking those drugs they would be DQed. This spectacle makes the sport involved less a sport, discourages rightlful participants, and creates hostility in the community. Gender rules are there because they make sense and are grounded in fairness. Breaking them to accomodate a few in order to pat ourselves on the back is utterly misguided.

All male athletes take steroids?

 

[Drumguy]

All male athletes take steroids?

I interpreted that to mean that as males our bodies produce testosterone in larger amounts from conception than a female would. So from birth a male has more muscle building hormones. Its somewhat inferential but I believe that is Rocky's meaning.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

All male athletes take steroids?

Recent court ruling discussed in this article illuminates the sports' battle over testosterone. Caster Semenya Loses Case to Compete as a Woman in All Races

Female runners with high testosterone must take hormone suppressants to compete, sports court rules

Also:

Now women athletes with naturally occuring high levels of testosterone will have to take medications to reduce the level in order to qualify for certain international competitions. Caster Semenya (champion middle distance runner just lost her appeal of this decision.

 

[huskyd]

There is nothing sensible to debate here. It is only because some twiisted misconception of rights and equity tied up in PC culture that this issue has any life. Organized sports have always involved categorizations to level the playing field: age groups, gender, weight class, professional and amateur, and drug control are some of the most obvious. These guys who would be self identified girls have had a lifetime of performance enhancing drugs steadily building up in their bodies. If the girls who they claim a right to "compete" with were taking those drugs they would be DQed. This spectacle makes the sport involved less a sport, discourages rightlful participants, and creates hostility in the community. Gender rules are there because they make sense and are grounded in fairness. Breaking them to accomodate a few in order to pat ourselves on the back is utterly misguided.

Nope. There's a lot to debate, that's why the issue is so widely debated. Trying to accommodate the many gender ambiguities is reality, not something to dismiss as PC (ie, as something trivial). What is happening here is a desire to be sensitive to the many differences experienced by humankind. My wife is a geneticist, so I have the advantage of being womansplained on the topic by an expert (PhD and all that).
I understand your frustration with seemingly everything being run through with a fine comb, but science is progressing and increasing our understanding of the complexities of life. We can ignore the information, but we cannot relegate it to meaninglessness. Oh, and be careful whose back you pat.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

@huskyd, I'm not ignoring the one (self IDed transgendered), but trying to respect the integrity of sport.

"The I.A.A.F. accepts athletes with differences of sexual development as legally female. For competitive purposes, though, it effectively considers them biologically male. The I.A.A.F. has said this is necessary to provide a level playing field in races that can be won by a hundredth of a second. To do nothing, it has said, risks “losing the next generation of female athletes.”

Caster Semenya Loses Case to Compete as a Woman in All Races

In sports "accomodation" is not enlightened,; it's destructive.

 

[Sargassoc]

I think many folks (here and elsewhere) are not fully aware of the wide variety of ways that people can possess gender variant characteristics. Given the huge number of these differences, I'm not sure where people think "gender rules" should be drawn. Chromosomes? External genitalia? Sex assigned at birth?

Have you heard of Androgen insensitivity syndrome? People are genetically men, but with female external genitalia (and internal testes). There seems to be a desire for the world to be black and white; I truly do not see why we have such unrealistic expectations.

If you think I'm full of hooey, at the very least, watch this TedTalk from Emily Quinn, an author.

 

[Plebe]

Recent court ruling discussed in this article illuminates the sports' battle over testosterone. Caster Semenya Loses Case to Compete as a Woman in All Races

Female runners with high testosterone must take hormone suppressants to compete, sports court rules

Also:

Now women athletes with naturally occuring high levels of testosterone will have to take medications to reduce the level in order to qualify for certain international competitions. Caster Semenya (champion middle distance runner just lost her appeal of this decision.

I'm forever fascinated by the intersection between social issues and sports, and wow does this topic have that in spades. With the reality of gender-segregated athletic competition, ultimately the question must be posed: "What does it mean to be female?" Far from an easy question to answer, it turns out.

In my mind these are very different cases. I think the way Semenya has been treated by the IAAF has been downright shameful, and borderline criminal. She has lived her entire life as a female, and she should be allowed to compete as such without medicating herself.

The Renee Richardses of the world, I feel much more ambivalent about. Can the larger societal trend toward recognition of transgender rights -- and greater social fluidity between "male" and "female" categories -- be reconciled with the need for a strictly segregated female division of athletic competition? Hmmmm.

 

[goskis2018]

Complete non-issue, You play sports in the same group as the rest of your sex.

 

[Los24]

As a father of two girls this will be my only statement and I don't care to go deeper or debate:

Equality does not equal same. This is a good place to start. Once you get past this obvious fact, then we can embrace our differences instead of forcing narratives. There is a reason why they test in the Olympics to create a playing field that is fair.

 

[CL82]

Nope. There's a lot to debate, that's why the issue is so widely debated. Trying to accommodate the many gender ambiguities is reality, not something to dismiss as PC (ie, as something trivial). What is happening here is a desire to be sensitive to the many differences experienced by humankind. My wife is a geneticist, so I have the advantage of being womansplained on the topic by an expert (PhD and all that).
I understand your frustration with seemingly everything being run through with a fine comb, but science is progressing and increasing our understanding of the complexities of life. We can ignore the information, but we cannot relegate it to meaninglessness. Oh, and be careful whose back you pat.

Does your wife have a take on how to resolve this issue?

 

[soxfan23]

@huskyd, I'm not ignoring the one (self IDed transgendered), but trying to respect the integrity of sport.

"The I.A.A.F. accepts athletes with differences of sexual development as legally female. For competitive purposes, though, it effectively considers them biologically male. The I.A.A.F. has said this is necessary to provide a level playing field in races that can be won by a hundredth of a second. To do nothing, it has said, risks “losing the next generation of female athletes.”

Caster Semenya Loses Case to Compete as a Woman in All Races

In sports "accomodation" is not enlightened,; it's destructive.

There are far too many physiological advantages for men to compete against women! Greater testosterone levels, longer and denser bone structure, stronger ligaments, more fast twitch muscle composition, etc. Expecting a woman to overcome these disadvantages in extremely unfair, and frankly, utterly absurd!

 

[ed4ourgirls]

. . . At the moment, the only fair approach is to allow everyone to compete on a level playing field: trans/athletes should be allowed to play against whichever gender group they choose. . . .

I am surprised that you don't realize (or don't wish to acknowledge) that the second half of
that sentence is completely at odds with the first. This is what the controversy is about.
Inclusiveness is more important than fairness vrs fairness is more important than inclusiveness.

 

[Essexdave]

I hope a mod shuts this thread down quickly — it won’t end well.

I get ur concern. Not an easy topic to discuss. Has to be though. This really does threaten girls and women’s sports. Please don’t shut down.

 

[dogged1]

I get ur concern. Not an easy topic to discuss. Has to be though. This really does threaten girls and women’s sports. Please don’t shut down.

You're right it is an important subject. If your interested it was discussed in some detail in a thread started by CocoHusky last year. Here is the opening post:

Starting this thread mainly to get some "non-political" thoughts.
A HS athletes born male but identifying as female were given permission to compete in women's events in HS track and field in Alaska. The outcome was somewhat predictable with the transgender athletes winning All-State honors in women's track. Could women's basketball be next?
High School Boy Wins All-State Honors In Girls Track And Field
Personally, I'm very supportive of the ability for every child to have an opportunity to compete, but much more supportive of fairness in the competition. I would not support this decision because I believe it to be unfair on the basis of biology.
What say you?

Not sure how to give you a link directly to it. I guess I need to reread Nan's "Boneyard for Dummies" again.

Some people see the issues strictly in terms of black and white, yes or no. Some people see nothing but the shades of gray. I think Rocky has it right when he implies it is a matter of fairness. We don't have a 12 year old compete against a 20 year old in a sport were size, strength speed make a difference. And we certainly don't do it in a contact or semi contact sport.

So, if your born male and get the hormones, size, muscle and bones of a male and then decide to identify female, you have an unfair advantage in most sports. If the contest is inherently unfair, what is it's worth to contestants or fans? You didn't win because you worked harder, you didn't win because of athletic skill. You won because you have the musculature of a male against female competitors.

Perhaps the transgender athlete who won that track meet was proud that she had broken a barrier, that she felt needed to be broken. But proud of the accomplishment of beating a bunch of young women who competed fairly? I doubt it.

Just my thoughts as the father of both a son and a daughter, former high school athletes. If at the time, my daughter was going to compete against a transgender in lacrosse, I would have advised against participation. She of course would have decided.

Edit: hit the up arrow next CocoHusky's post and it takes you to the thread

 

[Sargassoc]

So, if your born male and get the hormones, size, muscle and bones of a male and then decide to identify female, you have an unfair advantage in most sports. If the contest is inherently unfair, what is it's worth to contestants or fans? You didn't win because you worked harder, you didn't win because of athletic skill. You won because you have the musculature of a male against female competitors.

This is part of the issue. There are athletes who are "born male" (by that, I assume you mean with male genitalia) who do not have male hormones. They might not have male DNA. So what determines biological sex? Genitalia alone? DNA? Hormones? Secondary sex characteristics? It's important to note that researchers put the number of sex-variant births (anywhere from genitalia to chromosomes) at 1 in 1,000 live births. That's not a small number. So who decides? Currently, there is only one person who decides on a baby's sex at birth-- and that is the attending doctor. In order to fill out birth certificates, doctors MUST put either Male or Female in the box-- even in cases of indeterminate genitalia. So they decide which box to check. But genitalia alone does not (despite what people think) solely determine sex.

 

[iri10]

I don't think there's any way to resolve this issue that would make everybody happy. Making a "transgender" division wouldn't work; there are too few transgender people and they cover a vast range of physiology.

Allowing born male transgender people to compete in female divisions without restriction essentially marks the end of biological female competition at the elite level (and also down the line). Even worse is that mixed in with true trans people, you'll have people pressured or incentivized by their countries to pretend to identify as female merely to win championships, medals, etc.

Forcing people to compete in the biological sex of their birth certificate, by itself, doesn't eliminate issues. There's a case in Texas where a boy who was born a girl has been forced to compete in the girls' wrestling division, even though he's taking male hormones as part of his transition (he dominates there, of course). That doesn't get into the social humiliation of the policy which essentially tells you that your identity is worthless, or the exclusionary policy of simply banning them from all competition.

My own imperfect solution is as follows: since gender has grown more complex in ways that can no longer neatly accommodate male and female divisions, I propose replacing them with "unrestricted" and "restricted" divisions.

The unrestricted division will be for biologically born boys, trans girls with male pattern development/testosterone levels, and transitioned trans boys with male-like hormones (while still limiting the amount of testosterone, etc. allowable to normal male levels for all groups).

The restricted division will be for biologically born girls, trans boys with female hormone levels (not yet begun hormonal transition) and certain subsets of trans girls with very clearly defined criteria: e.g., trans girls with well documented continual suppression of male hormones since before puberty - that suppression would need to continue while they compete in the restricted division, of course. Also the small subset of trans girls with androgen insensitivity syndrome or similar conditions.

(edited to add an obvious group to the restricted division that I forgot about)