Top 500 players of all time (SLAM)

[tzznandrew]

Should've guessed with your first comment that you would find one or two other good centers to go along with Lanier in Cowens and then relate them to the Bottom feeders I was talking about. The bottom feeders I listed were to mention how they made it way more challenging for Shaq to score and rebound then the bottom feeders of KAJ's early years.

SO take out Eaton, Manute, and Sampson because their careers all started well in the 80's. It's a joke that you brought up Chuck Nevitt he played in 155 games over 9 years! AND didn't even average a block per game. AND once again he doesn't fit into the category of playing early on in KAJ's career (Played in mid 80's). Sikma didn't average a bpg and didn't fall into the category of playing early in KAJ's early years as he started playing in '77. Maurice Lucas was 6'8!!! and averaged a half of a block per game. Same with Dan Issel (6'9 and less than a half of BPG)

So, So far to recap in KAJ's early years (we'll say years 1-7 (that is '69-'75 Nobody other than the ones I mention next played during those years or was any good defensively) The good defensive centers during this period were Cowens (even he was 6'9 and averaged less than a block per game), Lanier, Hayes, McAdoo and Thurmond. Like I said Not a great deal of talented defensive centers (4 maybe 5) night in and night out.

I probably named 25 very good defensive centers during shaq's era. Did KAJ have some competition after years 1-7... yes... I would agree with that. Comparable to Shaq's Era, Yeah possibly.

But during KAJ's first 7 years he had:

His best 6 years scoring years (total pts)
His best 6 Rebounding years
44% of his career AST
43% of his total career points
43% of his career FGM
49% of his career Rebounds
3 (of 6) MVP's
Both of his 2 Scoring titles

Listen when it comes down to it they are both all time greats. I think KAJ was an amazing player, I just think him and shaq are almost as even as you could write it and so the nod goes to the guy who faced tougher comp.

Why is it that we criticize KAJ for playing a league that couldn't guard him height-wise, but then give Shaq a pass?

In his prime, from about 1993-2003, no one in the league could guard him. Not just because he was talented as a basketball player, but because he combined size, weight, and girth that no one else did. He was a physical specimen in a class by himself--so much so that, if you were to read websites like The Boneyard from 2000, people would say that he had no talent, but was just too big for people.

Tell me again why that is different from Kareem's early years?

 

[mauconnfan]

Your late to the party buddy. Read all the posts before. I already outlined my argument pretty well. No I'm not even close to 21 which I wish I was. But I'm sure you're another one of those kids that were told that the game was "better back in the day" so you go on spewing false punditry when you never really saw a game back in the 60's and early 70's. You probably also have some bias against Shaq because he tore your team up and you thought he was cheating or something, which I understand that sucks but if you can't look at it through unbiased eyes that why even talk like you know things. Also, its awfully easy to say this list is a joke, wow that was tough to type. Now try creating your own list of the best 500 basketball players to live. And have to consider factors such as different eras how different stats compare, all defensive players, all offensive players, all around good players, guys with rings vs. guys without rings, team players, role players, clutch players. I'm not saying I don't object to certain players and where they are, I stated above to superjohn I would have changed many but you're awfully simple minded if you think its an easy task. Its very easy to criticize though so Congrats to you on that.

And Shaq is definitely a top 5 center of all time, dope. He was unstoppable in his prime. The refs had to hold referendums on how to call the games when he is involved. Teams created the hack a shaq to stop him. He was a dominant two way player for many years. I'm not listing the names over again because your too lazy to go read them but I listed over 25 very competitive defensive centers of his era. That's my factual evidence. You sir have none.

Dope huh? And your argument sucks.........only you would think it's good but that's okay that's what the 'Yard is about. And I watched games in the 60's and 70's as well as up to 2013 so I have a leg to stand on with my argument. And as far as Shaq, I like Shaq....great guy and good for basketball........excellent ambassador, just not a Top 5 guy for sure and maybe not a top 5 center. Certainly not Russell, Chamberlain, Malone or Jabbar but could possibly sneak in at 5 but there would be good "arguments" for all cases. In case you're too stupid, which seems to be the case after reading this crap, the BY is based on pure opinion. These are nt' arguments because none of us know who's right or wrong. But you seem to be a know it all so have at it here boy! "He probably tore your team up....." I wished I had seen that prior to my original post I would have known you weren't 21.......couldn't possibly be that old yet with responses like that!

 

[mcs333]

Article was written over two years ago!!

 

[kcc1442]

Dope huh? And your argument sucks.........only you would think it's good but that's okay that's what the 'Yard is about. And I watched games in the 60's and 70's as well as up to 2013 so I have a leg to stand on with my argument. And as far as Shaq, I like Shaq....great guy and good for basketball........excellent ambassador, just not a Top 5 guy for sure and maybe not a top 5 center. Certainly not Russell, Chamberlain, Malone or Jabbar but could possibly sneak in at 5 but there would be good "arguments" for all cases. In case you're too stupid, which seems to be the case after reading this crap, the BY is based on pure opinion. These are nt' arguments because none of us know who's right or wrong. But you seem to be a know it all so have at it here boy! "He probably tore your team up....." I wished I had seen that prior to my original post I would have known you weren't 21.......couldn't possibly be that old yet with responses like that!

Listen, your response doesn't dignify a retort because you brought nothing to the table other than claiming you saw games back then and telling me you don't think I'm 21. Which I'm fine with because I couldn't care less how old you think I am and its somewhat irrelevant unless you really are stupid enough to think that age is part of your great argument. It is comical to me however that you state that "I am the know it all". Since during my first posts with superjohn we came to an agreement that we just disagreed and we were fine with that. When I wrote my argument as I always do I used words like: personally, I think, and "in my opinion". The only reason I really even replied to you after you shot down my post is because you say things with a heavy tone of "I know it all".

Case in point 1: "I stopped at Shaq at #4 ....... all you need to know about the dopes legitimacy ends there!!! No need to view the rest because it's a joke!"

Case in point 2: "Funny .....what are you 21? The league is watered down with 6'9" centers and has been ....... centers were a ton better back in the day and it's not close........Shaq is not even in the Top 5 centers never mind players of all time! The list is a total joke"

Not one time did you say my opinion, I believe or this is what I think......SO who is the know it all buddy??????

Ok so I'm done with you wasting my time. You have a lot to learn....Let me know when you grow up...

 

[mauconnfan]

Listen, your response doesn't dignify a retort because you brought nothing to the table other than claiming you saw games back then and telling me you don't think I'm 21. Which I'm fine with because I couldn't care less how old you think I am and its somewhat irrelevant unless you really are stupid enough to think that age is part of your great argument. It is comical to me however that you state that "I am the know it all". Since during my first posts with superjohn we came to an agreement that we just disagreed and we were fine with that. When I wrote my argument as I always do I used words like: personally, I think, and "in my opinion". The only reason I really even replied to you after you shot down my post is because you say things with a heavy tone of "I know it all".

Case in point 1: "I stopped at Shaq at #4 ....... all you need to know about the dopes legitimacy ends there!!! No need to view the rest because it's a joke!"

Case in point 2: "Funny .....what are you 21? The league is watered down with 6'9" centers and has been ....... centers were a ton better back in the day and it's not close........Shaq is not even in the Top 5 centers never mind players of all time! The list is a total joke"

Not one time did you say my opinion, I believe or this is what I think......SO who is the know it all buddy??????

Ok so I'm done with you wasting my time. You have a lot to learn....Let me know when you grow up...

Where did you come from pal? You're an idiot who deserves little time never mind a reply....but of course mau being mau and not liking a**wipes like yourself I will any way. Just a heads up, I at least admitted whatever I say isn't gospel it's only what I believe so the know it all was already out the window on my end. And I am pure opinion after watching years of basketball and seeing the best play. Different era's ? no doubt.....different athletes? , overall no doubt...........but take in to consideration the usual marketing "genius" which is David Stern he made Shaq into the star he was and needed to create the fanfare. Shaq was real good I have no doubt, but he was allowed certain exceptions which others were not.......how many charges did you see called when he threw his 350lbs backwards into a defender with a solid foundation? Who can stop him if they allowed him to keep banging backwards??? No one of course he's a monster........and that's not basketball either, it's BS. But that isn't all about Shaq's career because the guy improved his game immensely from big guy who was in the middle for LSU vs the Huskies to the guy who could suddenly make littel bankers, jump hooks and some really incredible post moves for a man his size. I respect the improvement because he worked to be that good and turned into at least a top 10 center of all time which is impressive. Much like superjohn I would put Olajuwon ahead for sure, maybe a couple others but why be picky, he's one of the greats no doubt.

Agree to disagree or not I could care less. I don't like you so it won't matter.......!! Your case in points and numbers are not validating to anyone but yourself!! But congrats on your replies you're a gem! LOL

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Top five centers, to me, are Russell, Kareem, Wilt, Olajuwon, Shaq, in that order. Olander probably sixth.

 

[kcc1442]

Where did you come from pal? You're an idiot who deserves little time never mind a reply....but of course mau being mau and not liking a**wipes like yourself I will any way. Just a heads up, I at least admitted whatever I say isn't gospel it's only what I believe so the know it all was already out the window on my end. And I am pure opinion after watching years of basketball and seeing the best play. Different era's ? no doubt.....different athletes? , overall no doubt...........but take in to consideration the usual marketing "genius" which is David Stern he made Shaq into the star he was and needed to create the fanfare. Shaq was real good I have no doubt, but he was allowed certain exceptions which others were not.......how many charges did you see called when he threw his 350lbs backwards into a defender with a solid foundation? Who can stop him if they allowed him to keep banging backwards??? No one of course he's a monster........and that's not basketball either, it's BS. But that isn't all about Shaq's career because the guy improved his game immensely from big guy who was in the middle for LSU vs the Huskies to the guy who could suddenly make littel bankers, jump hooks and some really incredible post moves for a man his size. I respect the improvement because he worked to be that good and turned into at least a top 10 center of all time which is impressive. Much like superjohn I would put Olajuwon ahead for sure, maybe a couple others but why be picky, he's one of the greats no doubt.

Agree to disagree or not I could care less. I don't like you so it won't matter.......!! Your case in points and numbers are not validating to anyone but yourself!! But congrats on your replies you're a gem! LOL

Seriously man, you got issues. Get all worked up because another guy on the internet doesn't agree with you. Is that the first time? Get all fired up and state your opinions like they are facts. Go ahead. You're not changing my point of view. Congrats to you though because you are the genius here. Seriously I'm done here though we are arguing semantics here anyways. You say he is maybe 5th best Center of all time. I say 3 maybe 4. Big deal we differ on who is in front of him which i personally dont think KAJ is. But the point here is that you blew up like I said Vlade Divac was better than KAJ. What are you not even 21 yet......Yeah because I think the guy you say could be the 5th best center all time is better than who you say is 3rd, thats a great reason to act like an idiot.

 

[BearJWS]

Another Thread... More Piss...
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[Scoe]

Major fail on me for not realizing this was from 2011.

 

[champs99and04]

I think Shaq's gigantic personality, coupled with his pity feud with Kobe, his gradual downward spiral in his later years, and his questionable work ethic have caused some people to forget how damn good he was in his prime. Listing him as the fifth best center of all-time is one thing, acting like he was simply a product of a watered down league and not an overpowering freak of nature who was probably the most dominant player the league has seen post-Jordan (though LeBron has a good case) is quite another. Could anybody, post-Wilt, toss up 40/20 games easier than Shaq? The thing I like most about the guy is despite his tendency to occasionally coast, he showed up when it mattered most. Check out these numbers:

1999/2000 postseason: 31/15/3/2, 57% shooting, 30.5 PER
2000/2001 postseason: 30/15/3/2, 56% shooting, 28.7 PER
2001/2002 postseason: 29/13/3/3, 53% shooting, 28.3 PER

He had three postseasons and three regular seasons in which he posted a PER of over 30. By comparison, Kareem had zero regular seasons and one postseason with a PER of over 30. Chamberlain posted three regular seasons, and zero postseasons with a 30+ PER, a stat which accounts for pace, and efficiency relative to era's. Hakeem? Zero regular seasons and one postseason with a PER over 30. Granted, it's not a perfect exchange rate by any means, but in my opinion, Shaq was as good as any center who has ever played at his peak. He wasn't the homicidal competitor/winner Russell was, and he he flamed out as a franchise player a lot quicker than Kareem. But as for Olajuwon and Chamberlain, Shaq won as many titles as both of them combined, three of them as the undisputed best player on his team. Of course, he played with better players than either of those two, especially Olajuwon, but I have no issue with anybody who wants to list Shaq as the second or third best center of all-time.

 

[tentoes4rings]

I'm enjoying the back and forth about who was better, Shaq or Kareem. I saw the balding old version of Kareem so I can't do this debate enough justice. While I agree Shaq is a little high, where else do people feel this list is so "horrible"? Other than Ray, Gasol and a few others I think it's very solid overall. Parker and Ginobili around 140 seems low too but I'm okay with the list in general.

 

[uconnbill]

Chamberlain over Russell is a downright travesty.

He did sleep with 20,000 women

 

[MilliniumPrince]

He did sleep with 20,000 women

Wilt averaged something like 38 and 28 against Russell. Celtics fans will sell you the BS "Bill let him do that." Pure crap! As a basketball player Wilt was a level or two above Russell. As a leader that's where Russell clearly out shines him. But as a player ...not even close.

 

[mauconnfan]

Seriously man, you got issues. Get all worked up because another guy on the internet doesn't agree with you. Is that the first time? Get all fired up and state your opinions like they are facts. Go ahead. You're not changing my point of view. Congrats to you though because you are the genius here. Seriously I'm done here though we are arguing semantics here anyways. You say he is maybe 5th best Center of all time. I say 3 maybe 4. Big deal we differ on who is in front of him which i personally dont think KAJ is. But the point here is that you blew up like I said Vlade Divac was better than KAJ. What are you not even 21 yet......Yeah because I think the guy you say could be the 5th best center all time is better than who you say is 3rd, thats a great reason to act like an idiot.

All worked up? Who started with the "dope"? Done......nuff said......if you think Shaq is better than any of the 1st 3 then you're really not that bright anyway but who would've guessed that?

 

[Kitaman]

All worked up? Who started with the "dope"? Done......nuff said......if you think Shaq is better than any of the 1st 3 then you're really not that bright anyway but who would've guessed that?

Why are you arguing with or trying to convince a teenager, who is not your child? Even then its a timeout or no allowance, but certainly no argument.

They only say "you were right" over your grave.

 

[mauconnfan]

Why are you arguing with or trying to convince a teenager, who is not your child? Even then its a timeout or no allowance, but certainly no argument.

They only say "you were right" over your grave.

So true Kita.......wtf am I thinking.........? I am now trying to get my son out of bed as we speak for a potential summer job opening and I'm not winning.....I should've known better!!

By the way not worked up....I have to much fun to get worked up!! Heck I'm working right now.....lol

 

[tzznandrew]

I think Shaq's gigantic personality, coupled with his pity feud with Kobe, his gradual downward spiral in his later years, and his questionable work ethic have caused some people to forget how damn good he was in his prime. Listing him as the fifth best center of all-time is one thing, acting like he was simply a product of a watered down league and not an overpowering freak of nature who was probably the most dominant player the league has seen post-Jordan (though LeBron has a good case) is quite another. Could anybody, post-Wilt, toss up 40/20 games easier than Shaq? The thing I like most about the guy is despite his tendency to occasionally coast, he showed up when it mattered most. Check out these numbers:

1999/2000 postseason: 31/15/3/2, 57% shooting, 30.5 PER
2000/2001 postseason: 30/15/3/2, 56% shooting, 28.7 PER
2001/2002 postseason: 29/13/3/3, 53% shooting, 28.3 PER

He had three postseasons and three regular seasons in which he posted a PER of over 30. By comparison, Kareem had zero regular seasons and one postseason with a PER of over 30. Chamberlain posted three regular seasons, and zero postseasons with a 30+ PER, a stat which accounts for pace, and efficiency relative to era's. Hakeem? Zero regular seasons and one postseason with a PER over 30. Granted, it's not a perfect exchange rate by any means, but in my opinion, Shaq was as good as any center who has ever played at his peak. He wasn't the homicidal competitor/winner Russell was, and he he flamed out as a franchise player a lot quicker than Kareem. But as for Olajuwon and Chamberlain, Shaq won as many titles as both of them combined, three of them as the undisputed best player on his team. Of course, he played with better players than either of those two, especially Olajuwon, but I have no issue with anybody who wants to list Shaq as the second or third best center of all-time.

I didn't watch young Kareem, so I don't know how much this would have affected things, but the league didn't start calculating blocks, offensive rebounds, or steals until the 73-74 seasons. I wonder how much that would have changed his early stats, given that he had regular season PERs of:

• 29
• 29.9
• 28.5

before these stats were calculated, and a playoff PER of 29.4.

 

[champs99and04]

I didn't watch young Kareem, so I don't know how much this would have affected things, but the league didn't start calculating blocks, offensive rebounds, or steals until the 73-74 seasons. I wonder how much that would have changed his early stats, given that he had regular season PERs of:

• 
  [ ]29
  [ ]29.9
  [ ]28.5

before these stats were calculated, and a playoff PER of 29.4.

That's what makes cross-generation comparisons so difficult, IMO. In-depth advanced stats that add context to the standard numbers (points, rebounds, etc.) have only recently been tracked extensively, so you're really relying on the old eye-ball test (which, for me is limited due to my age) and input from veteran basketball scholars like Bob Ryan to make your determination. Either way, I think the difference between guys like Shaq, Chamberlain, Kareem, Russell, and Hakeem is miniscule, so I don't think a list should be dismissed entirely because Shaq may seem a few slots higher than normal.

 

[Huskybass]

Reggie Miller ranked 25 spots above Ray? That is laughable.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Reggie Miller ranked 25 spots above Ray? That is laughable.

Reggie had some huge moments but he his career is highly overrated. He was very one dimensional and never put up monster numbers. How many seasons did he average 21 or more points in his career? He wasn't a defender, distributor, or rebounder. He just has some classic highlights.

 

[tzznandrew]

Reggie had some huge moments but he his career is highly overrated. He was very one dimensional and never put up monster numbers. How many seasons did he average 21 or more points in his career? He wasn't a defender, distributor, or rebounder. He just has some classic highlights.

The answer is 5. Allen had 8.

Below are relevant stats (both per game, and advanced). To compare them, I bolded the category the player leads in. It's interesting, statistically they are much closer than I realized. One might even give the nod to Miller, except that, in subjective categories (All Stars, Top 10 MVP vote shares) that come from the eye-test of those watching and team success go decisively to Allen. He doubles Miller's All Star appearances, and has a couple of titles.

Miller: 18 seasons, 25,279 points, 18.2 ppg, 47.1% (39.5% on 3s), 3 apg, 3 rbg, 18.4 PER, 61.4 TS%, 121 Offensive Rating, 109 Defensive Rating, .176 WS/48, 5 All Star games, 3rd team All-NBA 3x, 0x Top 10 MVP, 0 Championships, 1 Finals appearance

Allen: 17 season, 23,804 points, 19.4 ppg, 45.2% (40.1% on 3s), 3.4 apg, 4.1 rpg, 18.8 PER, 58.0 TS%, 114 Offensive Rating, 108 Defensive Rating, .152 WS/48, 10 All Star Games, 2nd team All-NBA 1x, 3rd team All-NBA 1x, 1x Top 10 MVP, 2 Championships, 3 Finals appearances