Too many teams

[Dokey]

Watching NCAA teams get blown out by 40 points does make you ask if 64 teams is too many. Is it really a reward for a decent season for a school such as High Point to be humiliated by UConn or for Baylor to crush a team I’ve already forgotten? I watched a few minutes of Stanford against Utah Valley, a school I’ve never heard of—if this were a boxing match, the referee would have ended it on a technical knockout. Maybe it would be for the best to make the NCAA 32 teams and WNIT 64.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

Watching NCAA teams get blown out by 40 points does make you ask if 64 teams is too many. Is it really a reward for a decent season for a school such as High Point to be humiliated by UConn or for Baylor to crush a team I’ve already forgotten? I watched a few minutes of Stanford against Utah Valley, a school I’ve never heard of—if this were a boxing match, the referee would have ended it on a technical knockout. Maybe it would be for the best to make the NCAA 32 teams and WNIT 64.

That would mean not having weaker conferences represented. I think across the entire spread of NCAA sports, conferences which sponsor championships in that sport have automatic bids.

Now, on the men's side, some of those weaker conferences can, from time to time, upset a higher seed. Actually, surprisingly often, if you think about it. It rarely happens on the women's side, but I'm not sure the answer is to exclude conferences.

 

[dabears17]

Utah Valley made the tournament because Cal Baptist isn't allowed to play in the NCAA's yet. Cal Baptist gave Stanford a scare November 2019.

 

[bballnut90]

That would mean not having weaker conferences represented. I think across the entire spread of NCAA sports, conferences which sponsor championships in that sport have automatic bids.

Now, on the men's side, some of those weaker conferences can, from time to time, upset a higher seed. Actually, surprisingly often, if you think about it. It rarely happens on the women's side, but I'm not sure the answer is to exclude conferences.

This^^. 32 teams does make more sense from a competition standpoint since it's incredibly rare than seeds 13+ win first round games, but I do think those higher seeded teams absolutely deserve to play in an NCAA game for winning their conference tournament. The men's game has a LOT more parity too due to lots of lower seeded teams being more experienced than the more athletic but often younger teams.

I will say though, despite every higher seed winning today, MTSU, Mercer, Kentucky's opponent and NC State's opponent all hung tough against a top 4 seed today which is a pretty rare occurrence. My guess is we will have several upsets in the 2nd round with neutral courts.

 

[UcMiami]

Generally, every team that gets a 16 seed seems to feel great about making the dance and getting to play in a game against a Uconn or Stanford or Baylor and specifically against a Paige or Parker or Loyd. And usually just to walk around in Gampel is a thrill and see the names and the banners.

Would most people on this board love to play a game of pick up against DT, or Maya, or Paige - we know we would get trounced and lucky to score a point, but wow!

Maybe it isn't competitive, but for the seniors ...what a way to end your college career playing against the best teams in the country. It is like paying a fortune to go to fantasy camp, but it is free and a reward for a long hard and successful season.

 

[Skeets]

Generally, every team that gets a 16 seed seems to feel great about making the dance and getting to play in a game against a Uconn or Stanford or Baylor and specifically against a Paige or Parker or Loyd. And usually just to walk around in Gampel is a thrill and see the names and the banners.

Would most people on this board love to play a game of pick up against DT, or Maya, or Paige - we know we would get trounced and lucky to score a point, but wow!

Maybe it isn't competitive, but for the seniors ...what a way to end your college career playing against the best teams in the country. It is like paying a fortune to go to fantasy camp, but it is free and a reward for a long hard and successful season.

A few years ago in Indianapolis I had my picture taken with Stef Dolson. I'm 6'2" but there is no doubt in my mind that Stef could pound me into the earth in a game of 1-on-1. I'm not sure my medical insurance would cover an earth pounding. She is a big girl

 

[ScuderiaDiU]

Don't forget when Harvard beat Stanford a few years back. I have no doubt that Berube's team could have given Stanford fits this year. Of course, the NCAA would have put them as our 16 seed instead.

 

[freshler40]

Watching NCAA teams get blown out by 40 points does make you ask if 64 teams is too many. Is it really a reward for a decent season for a school such as High Point to be humiliated by UConn or for Baylor to crush a team I’ve already forgotten? I watched a few minutes of Stanford against Utah Valley, a school I’ve never heard of—if this were a boxing match, the referee would have ended it on a technical knockout. Maybe it would be for the best to make the NCAA 32 teams and WNIT 64.

Some truth to this but I'd lean toward the total enriching experience for all evolved. It's like a great travel trip overseas, you would learn more than just sitting in a classroom. I'm happy these programs can engage in this, 30 or 40 point blowout or not! You don't always win in life but grow with the experience.

 

[CBus13]

I think it also all comes down to perspective.
When my mom was growing up, her high school wasn't very good at sports, so winning their sectional title was a big thing. When my sister and I were growing up, her high school soccer team had made the final four of the state tournament 6 out of the last 8 seasons. My sisters team would be upset to not make the State Final four after that standard had been set, my mom's high school's teams would have been thrilled to just make it to the Divisional Title game. A lot of those kids who are on those teams with higher digit seeds, have goals of playing in the tournament one day. A player like Paige Bueckers has bigger dreams of winning the National Championship, because it's the standard set for a number 1 recruit playing at UConn.

It never feels great to lose, but would you have told Mississippi State in 2016 (sorry to their fans) they should have been cut from the tournament because they lost to UConn by 60? In that same year, 12-seed South Dakota State beat the 5-seed Miami. 12-seed Albany also beat the 5-seed Florida in their first round game. I don't think cutting teams out of the tournament is the answer. Blowouts can happen at anytime and do happen in the Men's tournament as well. Just because you happened to see Jackson State lose big to Baylor doesn't mean it wasn't a great experience for their players and fans. Jackson State actually has a top-100 player in Se'Quoia Allmond signed to play next season, now making the Tournament is a viable goal for their team next year. In 2009, 2-seed Baylor had to play an Overtime game in their first round game very 15-seed UTSA.

In more recent years, if you had reduced it to 32-teams we wouldn't have had 10-seed Oregon make it to the Elite 8, a run that put Oregon and Sabrina Ionescu and Co. into the media conversation. It would have cut 11-seed Central Michigan from the tournament and eliminated their run of upsets to the Sweet 16 (Where they lost to the 2-seed Oregon Ducks).

So, yeah, maybe 16-seeds don't beat 1-seeds (Sorry, Stanford and UVA [men's side] fans) but they aren't supposed to. Majority of the time, they aren't close, but in 2018, future National Champions Notre Dame, only beat Cal State Northridge by 18 in the first round. There have been some super close 2-seed/15-seed games (Oregon State only beat Long Beach State by 1 in 2017. In 2018, South Carolina needed all of A'ja Wilson to put away a pesky 15-seed in North Carolina A&T). Also, the 12-seed South Dakota State team from 2016, which was 14-seed in 2015 and lost to Oregon State in the first round, returned to the tournament in 2019 as a 6-seed and made it to the Sweet 16 where they gave 2-seed Oregon a run for their money. So, maybe that previous high seed experience helped get them some more recruits, maybe it helped with those future 6-seed seniors get NCAA tournament experience where they could perform on the big stage again. Now, maybe players who go to South Dakota State aren't just happy to make the tournament as a high digit seed, maybe they have shifted goals and dreams of winning and making it to the Sweet 16? It's all a growing experience for all involved. I'm sure the fans from Orem, Utah were happy to cheer on their Wolverines as they faced the Number 1 overall seed. In the future, J. Williams from Utah Valley can say they scored 18 points against the number 1 team in 2021. Maybe it's a bit long-winded and a fantastical view of March Madness, but I love this time of year, so I'm all for the Round of 64.

 

[hussybulldog]

That would mean not having weaker conferences represented. I think across the entire spread of NCAA sports, conferences which sponsor championships in that sport have automatic bids.

Now, on the men's side, some of those weaker conferences can, from time to time, upset a higher seed. Actually, surprisingly often, if you think about it. It rarely happens on the women's side, but I'm not sure the answer is to exclude conferences.

Maybe they should be sent to the lower tier championships till their dues. Or maybe the first two rounds should be just exclusive for these weaker conferences and the higher seeds have byes for the first two rounds ,

 

[cabbie191]

Two points:

1) Many years ago, an acquaintance's daughter played for a non-Power 5 school in Indiana that was on UConn's schedule. Too long ago for me to remember the school's name!

Mel went to see the game which UConn won by about 45 points and had a chance to talk to his daughter before coming back to Wisconsin. Her reaction? As a team, they knew they were going to get clobbered and they had set a goal of losing by less than 50. Goal accomplished and to a player, they were thrilled with the experience.

2) It seems that almost every year, one or more teams decline invitations to compete in the NIT. There's nothing that prevents teams from turning down the opportunity to play in the NCAA tournament - and since I don't believe that any team has done that, I think that's pretty strong evidence that none of the very low seeded teams really care that they are most likely going to lose by huge scores.

 

[oldhusky]

It can be boring for the great teams, but for teams from the weaker conferences it can be the memory of a lifetime. They generally can't recruit far beyond their own backyard, they don't have games on TV, or much local newspaper coverage. Within their competitive realm every conference champion had a great season.

Many years from now they might be telling their kids, I got to play in the NCAA tournament, I played against Uconn and Paige one time, and see their reaction. Remember too that maybe they are weaker teams in Division 1, but it still is Division 1. There are roughly 25,000 graduating high school women who played basketball. Only about 1,000 of those get to play for a Division 1 program.

Finally it is one game, and two days later most of those teams are eliminated. The last teams in are usually equivalent to number 35-40 nationally, so 12 seeds and better are pretty competitive, as is the tournament once they get to 32. It costs two days to give those teams their day in the sun, and a reward for a good season. I don't like the concept of play in games, but think the 64 team field is perfect. Arguably the greatest sporting event of the year, as is.

 

[hoopsfan22]

You could cut it down to 16 teams. Take the top 2 in each of the power 5 conferences then have six at large bids.

 

[UcMiami]

It is not unlike the teams that schedule Uconn for for one of the preseason games - D2 or D3 teams that know they are going to get destroyed, but whose coaches use the experience and the game film to wake their players to what is possible on a basketball court. And the rest of their seasons are often a good sometimes championship good - and they point back to that preseason game and see it as the spark that ignited their run.

 

[uconnfan68]

Watching NCAA teams get blown out by 40 points does make you ask if 64 teams is too many. Is it really a reward for a decent season for a school such as High Point to be humiliated by UConn or for Baylor to crush a team I’ve already forgotten? I watched a few minutes of Stanford against Utah Valley, a school I’ve never heard of—if this were a boxing match, the referee would have ended it on a technical knockout. Maybe it would be for the best to make the NCAA 32 teams and WNIT 64.

So you’d be against #16 Harvard beating #1 Stanford a few years ago? I’m sure Tara would agree with you.

 

[uconnfan68]

You could cut it down to 16 teams. Take the top 2 in each of the power 5 conferences then have six at large bids.

Absolutely not. Power 5 is football and $$$. Let them form their own tournament.

 

[thatguyed]

Did you miss all of the press about the inequity of the men's vs. women's weight rooms? If there's even a hint of doing anything to cut back the women's tourney, you can expect an explosion. And rightfully so.

Yes, some of the early games are painful but there is now noticeably more quality teams across the board. Years ago, it was 99% predictable what teams would be in the Final Four. This year, there are probably 10-12 with some realistic shot at that.

 

[Vowelguy]

Watching NCAA teams get blown out by 40 points does make you ask if 64 teams is too many. Is it really a reward for a decent season for a school such as High Point to be humiliated by UConn or for Baylor to crush a team I’ve already forgotten? I watched a few minutes of Stanford against Utah Valley, a school I’ve never heard of—if this were a boxing match, the referee would have ended it on a technical knockout. Maybe it would be for the best to make the NCAA 32 teams and WNIT 64.

The small schools want to be in. It's an honor. And they get to see what the BIG time is like.

Would you rather play me in chess, in which you might win, or Garry Kasparov? The opportunity to see one of the greats would be cool imo.

I do think they went to 64 teams too early, but now that they've had it for 25+ years, aint no going back. But they need to avoid adding any more, even if the men's tournament increases.

 

[Zinethar]

Many here have posted how sloppy they thought UConn played in the first round (as if 40+ points isn't enough). The top teams use that game to get the jitters out, point to lack of focus, and motivate their teams to be ready for the next round. I'd rather they got all that excitement out before the games get tight.

 

[CajunHusky]

On the one hand, too many maybe for Women's, not too many for Men's ... parity runs a little deeper for men than women.

But the talent pool is getting deeper for the women.

Having said that though, this ain't football. Even small colleges can field very competitive teams (Loyola on the men's side). And I like to think of it like "Hoosiers", everybody gets a shot at the brass ring.

 

[maccca3232]

Excluding expected blow outs in 1st round and keeping all conference champs in the field are not mutually exclusive.

You could reduce the number of at large teams from:
32 to 16 (field from 64 to 48) to give Top 4 seeds a bye in the 1st round
32 to 24 (field from 64 to 56) to give Top 2 seeds a bye in the 1st round

One of the most talked about aspects of the 'Big Dance' is the Cinderella teams. If the lowest ranked teams don't play the highest ranked ones, then that will lessen that effect.

I like the current format.

 

[CajunHusky]

Absolutely not. Power 5 is football and $$$. Let them form their own tournament.

let us stop talking Power 5 ... Power 5 is FOOTBALL.

 

[Wbbfan1]

I agree with the premise that number of teams should be reduced. I would suggest 48 teams. However, if you did that the 16 at large teams would all come from major conferences, including the Big East. If there are any upsets in the Mid Major conferences the Regular season champion probably wouldn't get invited. If you reduce the number of teams, then I would also suggest you limit the number of teams a conference can get into the tournament.

Women's Tournament by Seeds. Wiki: NCAA Division I Women's Basketball Tournament upsets - Wikipedia

Unlike the men's tournament where 14 and 15 seeds can win, not so in the women's tournament. A solution that would never be accepted is only have teams selected from certain conferences. I would suggest Power 5, Big East and possibly AAC. I'm sure there is another conference that should be considered.

 

[Wbbfan1]

Stanford lost two starters to ACL injuries after the seeds were announced. If Stanford was healthy no way would Harvard have beenen them.

So you’d be against #16 Harvard beating #1 Stanford a few years ago? I’m sure Tara would agree with you.

 

[hoopsfan22]

let us stop talking Power 5 ... Power 5 is FOOTBALL.

It's generically used to separate the varsity and JV D-I athletic departments, nothing really to do with a particular sport.