The two sides of the Facey situation

[OkaForPrez]

Our side we all know well. Good Student/kid starts playing basketball at 15, comes to the US to pursue that dream at 17. Enrolls in LI - Lutheran who equates his completed education in Jamaica to that of a Sophmore. He enrolls as a rising junior and plays two years. Comes to Uconn at 20 years old. The argument is that to meet eligibility requirements to play D1 he had no choice but to go to school for 2 years prior to coming to uconn. From that side, of course his eligibility clock would not start because what alternative would Facey have other than the one he took?

But, there is a cynical view to this situation too. Who discovered Facey? Were they associated with LIL? Lutheran has a storied basketball history, do they have dedicated resources recruiting for them at the highschool level? Could there have been a situation where Facey, already meeting eligibility requirements for college accepted an opportunity to play for a high visibility high school level program as a result of being a relative unknown given he had only been playing basketball for 2 years? In exchange for that opportunity, would a school like lutheran require he play at least 2 years for them and manipulate the coursework acceptance rates to justify that?

I have no inside information to suggest the latter is true, I've just been really thinking about the counter argument to this situation. You can see there is a bit of a danger to guard against. High end high school level programs bringing in foreign high school graduates and using the alternative education system to carve out eligibility in exchange for exposure to D1.

The thing that I still find strange though is the mandatory redshirt. What purpose would that serve to deter a kid from staying in prep to develop further and increase likelihood of performing at the next level? In fact it gives one more year of practice without the clock running. The only thing I can think of is its the disincentive for the program to bring in a kid who has gamed the system in such a way.

We've received evidence that suggests there was an initial ruling by the NCAA and a waiver(appeal?) has been filed. It seems to me our best case scenario at this point is loss of a year on the back end with immediate eligibility. I actually think this might be a fair compromise.

 

[upstater]

Our side we all know well. Good Student/kid starts playing basketball at 15, comes to the US to pursue that dream at 17. Enrolls in LI - Lutheran who equates his completed education in Jamaica to that of a Sophmore. He enrolls as a rising junior and plays two years. Comes to Uconn at 20 years old. The argument is that to meet eligibility requirements to play D1 he had no choice but to go to school for 2 years prior to coming to uconn. From that side, of course his eligibility clock would not start because what alternative would Facey have other than the one he took?

But, there is a cynical view to this situation too. Who discovered Facey? Were they associated with LIL? Lutheran has a storied basketball history, do they have dedicated resources recruiting for them at the highschool level? Could there have been a situation where Facey, already meeting eligibility requirements for college accepted an opportunity to play for a high visibility high school level program as a result of being a relative unknown given he had only been playing basketball for 2 years? In exchange for that opportunity, would a school like lutheran require he play at least 2 years for them and manipulate the coursework acceptance rates to justify that?

I have no inside information to suggest the latter is true, I've just been really thinking about the counter argument to this situation. You can see there is a bit of a danger to guard against. High end high school level programs bringing in foreign high school graduates and using the alternative education system to carve out eligibility in exchange for exposure to D1.

The thing that I still find strange though is the mandatory redshirt. What purpose would that serve to deter a kid from staying in prep to develop further and increase likelihood of performing at the next level? In fact it gives one more year of practice without the clock running. The only thing I can think of is its the disincentive for the program to bring in a kid who has gamed the system in such a way.

We've received evidence that suggests there was an initial ruling by the NCAA and a waiver(appeal?) has been filed. It seems to me our best case scenario at this point is loss of a year on the back end with immediate eligibility. I actually think this might be a fair compromise.

The high school's job is to give him a diploma based on his fulfilling the high school's requirements.

If he took his diploma at age 15/16 and tried to enter college with it, would the NCAA have approved his transcript? Can pigs fly?

 

[OkaForPrez]

The high school's job is to give him a diploma based on his fulfilling the high school's requirements.

If he took his diploma at age 15/16 and tried to enter college with it, would the NCAA have approved his transcript? Can pigs fly?

He came to LIL at 17.

 

[OkaForPrez]

The ambiguity and the judgement call is in the interpretation of how Lutheran evaluated his current coursework. I'm suggesting that there are scenarios where the highschool could abuse that decision for their own benefit athletically.

 

[aceboon]

Did Facey play 2 years or 1 year at LuHi? If its 2 years, I think the issue lies at the feet of LuHi, and I would be more ticked off at them than I would the NCAA because on the surface it seems like they used Facey to get an extra year out of him. When Facey first came to Long Island he was 16 and he attended another school. He then transferred to LuHi after a year at that other school, if he did 2 years there, I really don't understand why they would've required him to attend for 2 years and not 1.

 

[upstater]

He came to LIL at 17.

Be that as it may, it doesn't answer my question. Would he have been approved for NCAA play after passing the test at 15/16? The answer is no.

Here is more on that:

When international students apply to Long Island Lutheran, their grade placement is "non-subjective," according to admissions director Barbara Ward. It's merely an issue of transferable credit.
"It's really very, very simple," Ward said. "We know how many credits a student needs to graduate our school and we can just work backwards from there. If we're admitting them into 10th grade, we know they have to have the credits to have graduated past freshman year. If we're admitting them into 11th grade, they would have needed to have completed half the credits."
Let's get this straight: Once Facey decided to come to the U.S., he had no choice but to enroll in 11th grade, which meant two additional years of basketball, which, at some point, got that eligibility clock ticking.
From his high school in Trelawny, at age 17, he couldn't possibly have gone straight to an American college. If his credits only amounted to that of an American high school sophomore, he wasn't anywhere near prepared academically. He couldn't have earned an athletic scholarship, either.
So, the question for the NCAA becomes: How could this have played out any differently?
What was Kentan Facey supposed to do?

According to this, Lutheran accepted ALL his credits. He was admitted as a junior. So, while he's 20 now, he completed his schooling at age 19, or two years after enrolling.

This is not mysterious at all. The admissions director there is virtually stating here that they took everything he had.

 

[upstater]

Did Facey play 2 years or 1 year at LuHi? If its 2 years, I think the issue lies at the feet of LuHi, and I would be more ticked off at them than I would the NCAA because on the surface it seems like they used Facey to get an extra year out of him. When Facey first came to Long Island he was 16 and he attended another school. He then transferred to LuHi after a year at that other school, if he did 2 years there, I really don't understand why they would've required him to attend for 2 years and not 1.

The admission director states they took all the credits he had. They didn't reject them. And, by the way, every school reserves the right to reject credits from another school. But the Lutheran admissions director says they didn't do that in Facey's case.

 

[OkaForPrez]

Duffy on the situation

Support from the NCAA regarding my counter argument:

"Our member schools have passed rules that encourage prospective (players) to not delay enrollment for the purpose of improving athletically or to be discovered for recruitment," Osburn told CBSSports.

He experienced a school system that differs from what we know in America, and as a result, he was placed in Long Island Lutheran's junior class as an 18-year-old.

 

[aceboon]

The admission director states they took all the credits he had. They didn't reject them. And, by the way, every school reserves the right to reject credits from another school. But the Lutheran admissions director says they didn't do that in Facey's case.

At this point its really tough to know whats going on from the outside, there's conflicting reports on his age and when he came to the US, Duffy's article says he came over at 17 and is 20 now, I've read other articles that said he came over at 16 and his birthdate on NBADraft.net has him at 19. It also wouldn't surprise me if LuHi held him back a year to get an extra out of him, while they're not a basketball factory or anything crazy like that, they are one of the better basketball schools in the state and the best on Long Island, and they're always having guys transferring in. FWIW, when the news broke out that both Samuel and Facey were under review from the NCAA, I did hear grumblings on twitter from people involved in the NY prep scene that LuHi "took advantage" of Facey's situation.

 

[OkaForPrez]

The admission director states they took all the credits he had. They didn't reject them. And, by the way, every school reserves the right to reject credits from another school. But the Lutheran admissions director says they didn't do that in Facey's case.

Sure, but accepting all those credits and determining that equates to completion of sophmore year vs. junior year vs. senior year is where the ambiguity lies. I'm not even considering the standardized test we've talked about Facey passing at 15 at all. It sounds like LIL wound him back two full years on his coursework alone when he came over at 17.

 

[upstater]

Duffy on the situation

Support from the NCAA regarding my counter argument:

how is that a support of the argument? Not getting you.

By the way, the article I read says he started at age 17. Not 18.

And if you look at his birthday (summer of 2013) that lines up.

 

[upstater]

Sure, but accepting all those credits and determining that equates to completion of sophmore year vs. junior year vs. senior year is where the ambiguity lies. I'm not even considering the standardized test we've talked about Facey passing at 15 at all. It sounds like LIL wound him back two full years on his coursework alone when he came over at 17.

Let's do this again. He's 17. They wound him back two years? Or one? He began as a junior. Juniors are 16, am I right? I know by age he is 2 years older, but unless the admissions director is outright lying, he did not have the requirements down to be admitted as a senior.

Most high schools have 3 years of advanced math and science. I'm assuming LIL is the same. If he had taken math but not alegbra by the time he came to the USA, or if he hadn't yet taken biology, that right there is more than enough reason to make a 17 year old a junior rather than a senior.

Again, unless the admissions director is lying.

 

[UConn990411]

Regardless of how this situation plays out, I would like to see the NCAA figure out a way to make eligibility decisions more efficient.

I understand that there are mountains of paperwork involved and that the NCAA is (probably). But they seem to have a complete lack of consideration for how much these decisions affect kids' lives beyond just sports.

Hire more staff, eliminate some of the rules - do whatever it takes to speed up the process. It should never take half a year to let someone know whether he's eligible or not.

 

[OkaForPrez]

how is that a support of the argument? Not getting you.

By the way, the article I read says he started at age 17. Not 18.

And if you look at his birthday (summer of 2013) that lines up.

The support is the rationale behind the rule which is in place to prevent someone from delaying enrollment for the purposes of discovery. If Facey was NCAA ready coming out of Jamaica, that would certainly fit if he was off most peoples radar and got his opportunity from performing well at the camp he was discovered at.

The 2nd quote was to confirm he was enrolled in LI as a junior, age is moot. I even stated above he came over at 17. Kids graduate highschool in the US at 17 too, why was he made a made a junior? What if the shenanigans took place in how they matched the credits to the core requirements. Sure we'll take all of your credits Kentan, but unfortunately these courses are still core requirements for graduation and we cannot accept your courses as fulfillment of those needs.

 

[tcf15]

Posted this in the Josh Smith thread last night, but this thread is more applicable:

http://courantblogs.com/uconn-men/t...ate-a-day-in-uconn-mens-basketball/#more-2307

"[Ollie] said was hoping Thursday might be the day he’d hear from the NCAA about Kentan Facey’s eligibility. That didn’t happen, but he said, “it could be any day now.” UConn has anticipated it would not get a decision until the eve of the season."​

 

[Scot-e]

I mean if it is only a matter of how many years he has left to play college ball give him a waiver to play this year and sort out the rest over the course of this upcoming season. If the NCAA really cares about it's member teams and the students that play for them- for once- do not put the student in a situation that hurts his ability to move forward with his life. He did not do anything wrong- let him play and if he only has 3 years left so be it.

 

[James]

I mean if it is only a matter of how many years he has left to play college ball give him a waiver to play this year and sort out the rest over the course of this upcoming season. If the NCAA really cares about it's member teams and the students that play for them- for once- do not put the student in a situation that hurts his ability to move forward with his life. He did not do anything wrong- let him play and if he only has 3 years left so be it.

Yeap just take it off the back end if it takes through the year to settle. But I also agree this situation is so opaque , facey could very well be effed.

 

[SubbaBub]

This whole thing is ridiculous. A 20-yr old freshman you received a US diploma within the past 12 months should not be held out, period.

If he showed up at 18 and wanted a year of prep acclimation to the US academic environment, that shouldn't be held against him either. Student-Athlete indeed.

The NCAA needs to stop. If his LIL transcript is not legit, that's one thing. We've had 28 year old QB's win the Heisman.

 

[mcs333]

+1

 

[upstater]

The support is the rationale behind the rule which is in place to prevent someone from delaying enrollment for the purposes of discovery. If Facey was NCAA ready coming out of Jamaica, that would certainly fit if he was off most peoples radar and got his opportunity from performing well at the camp he was discovered at.

The 2nd quote was to confirm he was enrolled in LI as a junior, age is moot. I even stated above he came over at 17. Kids graduate highschool in the US at 17 too, why was he made a made a junior? What if the shenanigans took place in how they matched the credits to the core requirements. Sure we'll take all of your credits Kentan, but unfortunately these courses are still core requirements for graduation and we cannot accept your courses as fulfillment of those needs.

So, essentially, the director of admissions is a liar.
Jamaicans must also be way way ahead of Americans when it comes to international rankings (even though every assessment says the exact opposite). Because he finished at age 16. So, he took trigonometry, biology, chemistry in Jamaica at the ages of 14 and 15. And age before American students take those courses. Even though the American system is far ahead of Jamaica.

I admit I'm generalizing here, but for good reason. A school like LIL needs to make sure he is fulfilling the requirements for their diploma. It would be an anomaly if he completed his math and science coursework before the age of 16 in Jamaica.

 

[kibblesnbits]

This whole thing is ridiculous. A 20-yr old freshman you received a US diploma within the past 12 months should not be held out, period.

If he showed up at 18 and wanted a year of prep acclimation to the US academic environment, that shouldn't be held against him either. Student-Athlete indeed.

The NCAA needs to stop. If his LIL transcript is not legit, that's one thing. We've had 28 year old QB's win the Heisman.

That's the part I don't get. It's very common for American athletes to take a post-grad year at a prep school (ranging from the pure athletic factories like Milford Academy to the elite academic schools such as Andover and Exeter) so they can get better athletically and get noticed for recruitment. Those kids don't sacrifice eligibility. This sounds like extremely selective enforcement.

Edit: Based on the posts saying that Facey was just cleared, I guess it wasn't selective in this case. But it still seems strange that it was even an issue given the fact that PG years (i.e. an extra year of prep school after graduating from high school) are routine and non-eligibility threatening.

 

[OkaForPrez]

/Close Thread

 

[upstater]

That's the part I don't get. It's very common for American athletes to take a post-grad year at a prep school (ranging from the pure athletic factories like Milford Academy to the elite academic schools such as Andover and Exeter) so they can get better athletically and get noticed for recruitment. Those kids don't sacrifice eligibility. This sounds like extremely selective enforcement.

Edit: Based on the posts saying that Facey was just cleared, I guess it wasn't selective in this case. But it still seems strange that it was even an issue given the fact that PG years (i.e. an extra year of prep school after graduating from high school) are routine and non-eligibility threatening.

It was selective in the case of the Harvard student and the other who were bagged for this very reason last Spring.

The problem seems to be more with the British system than with Facey's age. Parents down south and even richer parents up north keep their kids back so that they have an advantage in school. Those same kids that start a yer late are then allowed to have a kid do post-grad. And this is more common in football. Yes, some football players graduate at the age of 24. And then there are the Chris Weinke's of the world.

 

[Tenspro2002]

​

"UConn has anticipated it would not get a decision until the eve of the season."​

...which is entirely absurd. This issue was brought up in early August. It takes 3 months to resolve? I call BS.

This sounds like the NCAA, through a conspiracy of incompetence and malice, stringing UConn along to our greatest possible inconvenience.

 

[OkaForPrez]

...which is entirely absurd. This issue was brought up in early August. It takes 3 months to resolve? I call BS.

This sounds like the NCAA, through a conspiracy of incompetence and malice, stringing UConn along to our greatest possible inconvenience.

Dude...He's cleared lol.