The Steve Enoch Appreciation Thread

[Matrim55]

He is a very good athlete, and a pretty good rebounder in the minutes he has gotten

He has really impressive body control and fluidity, which is 1) part of athleticism that's often overlooked, and 2) why he's a more advanced offensive player than any of us thought. But he lacks explosiveness off the floor.

And he's not a pretty good rebounder by any measure -- his total rebound rate of 13% is just a smidgen higher than Amida, who grabs 12.5% of available boards. Facey is at 17.6% and Hamilton is at 16.3%. Tolbert, from SMU, leads the conference at 19%, and guys like Farr from Xavier and Ochefu from Villanova are both over 20%.

I haven't looked at the on/off splits too closely. My impression is that we rebound slightly better with Enoch on the court since, as someone else pointed out, he does a nice job of boxing out. But he still needs a lot of work on his athleticism and rebounding instincts.

EDIT: I just looked at sports-reference, and they have Enoch with 2 blocked shots in 148 total minutes.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

He has really impressive body control and fluidity, which is 1) part of athleticism that's often overlooked, and 2) why he's a more advanced offensive player than any of us thought. But he lacks explosiveness off the floor.

And he's not a pretty good rebounder by any measure -- his total rebound rate of 13% is just a smidgen higher than Amida, who grabs 12.5% of available boards. Facey is at 17.6% and Hamilton is at 16.3%. Tolbert, from SMU, leads the conference at 19%, and guys like Farr from Xavier and Ochefu from Villanova are both over 20%.

I haven't looked at the on/off splits too closely. My impression is that we rebound slightly better with Enoch on the court since, as someone else pointed out, he does a nice job of boxing out. But he still needs a lot of work on his athleticism and rebounding instincts.

EDIT: I just looked at sports-reference, and they have Enoch with 2 blocked shots in 148 total minutes.

I think he's a good rebounder, the thing is alot of time that he's on the court so is Dham, and Dham is one of the best defensive rebounders in the nation. Enoch had a few rebounds pulled away from him by Dham yesterday, for example.

 

[James]

There is legit a crowd of boneyard posters who think Enoch is Anthony Davis and KO is holding him down.

What does he do well ? He screens very well, also has above average touch around the paint when spoon fed.

What does he not do well? Playing within an offensive and defensive scheme where team fluidity is the premium and not a random post move here or there. He has no idea where the hell to be anywhere on the court.

How hard is it to get that uconn plays an elite elite elite defense when Enoch isn't close to the floor? That's where our breads buttered and if Enoch can't contribute as a team defender the level Nolan or facey does he can sit.


All the freaking bigs are deficient , that's why KO needs to embrace just going full out small ball more.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

There is legit a crowd of boneyard posters who think Enoch is Anthony Davis and KO is holding him down.

What does he do well ? He screens very well, also has above average touch around the paint when spoon fed.

What does he not do well? Playing within an offensive and defensive scheme where team fluidity is the premium and not a random post move here or there. He has no idea where the hell to be anywhere on the court.

How hard is it to get that uconn plays an elite elite elite defense when Enoch isn't close to the floor? That's where our breads buttered and if Enoch can't contribute as a team defender the level Nolan or facey does he can sit.


All the freaking bigs are deficient , that's why KO needs to embrace just going full out small ball more.

I never said any of that. I think he is a player with lots of potential, but 100% a work in progress. I said he is quite athletic for his size, and in my opinion is a good rebounder.

 

[bmayuc]

You can stand by your original comments all you want, this team was playing elite D while he was playing very little. I like Enoch a lot and think he will be the starting C when Brimah departs, but that doesn't change my opinion that his understanding of how to hedge the high ball screen and sag back into coverage was a step behind the other bigs, and those defensive miscues add up and cost you games. There was a reason he wasn't playing (Jalen Adams was, so let's please stop this false narrative that KO wasn't giving him run), and despite the Boneyard's claims that they could coach this team better than KO, I'll defer to him on this one because it was obvious to anyone who understands defensive concepts that he Enoch had his shortcomings. Its a lot easier to give Enoch an extended run against USF than say SMU.

The problem with this line of reasoning is that you aren't really providing a cost-benefit of SE's contribution. You are dismissing his complete contribution because his defensive positioning isn't top grade. We acknowledge his occassional defensive lapse, while extolling his other benefits that **more than make up for** his defensive positioning.

Look, we have a team that, as constituted, is the #3 ranked defensive team in the country in FG%. But we are average at rebounding, worse than average in transition pts, and our offense is a constant struggle because of our other bigs inability to catch/finish around the rim or god forbid make an effective post move.

So, could we give SE 20 min a game where we might give up a bit on FG % defense but gain in all of the other areas?

I think any reasonable person would say yes, which is why I am heartened to see Ollie give him burn.

An opinion to play SE more minutes is a vote to diversify as a team, slightly raise the upside of our March capabilities, and create a more balanced offensive attack.

 

[bmayuc]

He has really impressive body control and fluidity, which is 1) part of athleticism that's often overlooked, and 2) why he's a more advanced offensive player than any of us thought. But he lacks explosiveness off the floor.

And he's not a pretty good rebounder by any measure -- his total rebound rate of 13% is just a smidgen higher than Amida, who grabs 12.5% of available boards. Facey is at 17.6% and Hamilton is at 16.3%. Tolbert, from SMU, leads the conference at 19%, and guys like Farr from Xavier and Ochefu from Villanova are both over 20%.

I haven't looked at the on/off splits too closely. My impression is that we rebound slightly better with Enoch on the court since, as someone else pointed out, he does a nice job of boxing out. But he still needs a lot of work on his athleticism and rebounding instincts.

EDIT: I just looked at sports-reference, and they have Enoch with 2 blocked shots in 148 total minutes.

That rebound rate is going to get higher with a larger sample size. He often does an exceptional job of boxing his opponent out , freeing space for others to get easy rbs. For example DHam grabbed like 4 right off the kids hands yesterday. And although that box-out doesn't show in the score sheet, its critical to creating space around the bucket from which defensive rebounding can be secured.

I'm telling you, he's going to be an excellent volume rebounder as he gets his feet wet in College ball. And he works his butt off creating space and calling for the ball on offense, and has shown real glimpses of scoring credibility to back up that instinct to call for the ball.

 

[aceboon]

The problem with this line of reasoning is that you aren't really providing a cost-benefit of SE's contribution. You are dismissing his complete contribution because his defensive positioning isn't top grade. We acknowledge his occassional defensive lapse, while extolling his other benefits that **more than make up for** his defensive positioning.

Look, we have a team that, as constituted, is the #3 ranked defensive team in the country in FG%. But we are average at rebounding, worse than average in transition pts, and our offense is a constant struggle because of our other bigs inability to catch/finish around the rim or god forbid make an effective post move.

So, could we give SE 20 min a game where we might give up a bit on FG % defense but gain in all of the other areas?

I think any reasonable person would say yes, which is why I am heartened to see Ollie give him burn.

An opinion to play SE more minutes is a vote to diversify as a team, slightly raise the upside of our March capabilities, and create a more balanced offensive attack.

I simply don't think playing him that number of minutes gives this team a substantial bump in the 3 areas you earmarked, and lets be real, this offense also struggles because of how infefficient DHam his while having a high usage rate and the up and down play of Purvis from not only game to game but within the same game. DHam, Purvis, and Gibbs not being the automatic 14-15ppg, efficient scorer that we thought he would be are bigger concerns to me than an offensive scoring donut at the 5. I hear your points, I just don't think Enoch fixes or provides all that you claim he does.

 

[Matrim55]

That rebound rate is going to get higher with a larger sample size. He often does an exceptional job of boxing his opponent out , freeing space for others to get easy rbs. For example DHam grabbed like 4 right off the kids hands yesterday. And although that box-out doesn't show in the score sheet, its critical to creating space around the bucket from which defensive rebounding can be secured.

It shows in on/off splits, which I haven't been able to find for college. But basically, you can see if a team rebounds better when a given player is on the floor vs. off.

I'm telling you, he's going to be an excellent volume rebounder as he gets his feet wet in College ball.

I hope you're right. He has the body for it and his hands are amazing, but scouts tend to use blocks & steals as a proxy for innate athleticism, and Enoch has 2 blocks and 0 steals in 148 minutes of college ball. Given that and his inability to rebound out-of-area - why wasn't he taking rebounds away from Hamilton instead of the other way around? - I do think there's a lower ceiling than maybe you're willing to see.

 

[champs99and04]

Are we still going with the narrative that Brimah is hampering the offense after we've gone way up in offensive efficiency since he returned?

 

[jibsey]

You can stand by your original comments all you want, this team was playing elite D while he was playing very little. I like Enoch a lot and think he will be the starting C when Brimah departs, but that doesn't change my opinion that his understanding of how to hedge the high ball screen and sag back into coverage was a step behind the other bigs, and those defensive miscues add up and cost you games. There was a reason he wasn't playing (Jalen Adams was, so let's please stop this false narrative that KO wasn't giving him run), and despite the Boneyard's claims that they could coach this team better than KO, I'll defer to him on this one because it was obvious to anyone who understands defensive concepts that he Enoch had his shortcomings. Its a lot easier to give Enoch an extended run against USF than say SMU.

To get better, the kid needs floor time, mileage whatever you want to call it, and until he gets the time he's going to make mistakes whether it's this year or next. Rather it be this year. Same for Jalen, although KO is just coming around to him on PT. For someone who is 6'11" 250 with offense, would our record be worse if he had gotten another 6-7 minutes a game?

 

[aceboon]

To get better, the kid needs floor time, mileage whatever you want to call it, and until he gets the time he's going to make mistakes whether it's this year or next. Rather it be this year. Same for Jalen, although KO is just coming around to him on PT. For someone who is 6'11" 250 with offense, would our record be worse if he had gotten another 6-7 minutes a game?

KO is not just coming around to PT for Jalen, please put that nonsense to bed.

 

[bmayuc]

I simply don't think playing him that number of minutes gives this team a substantial bump in the 3 areas you earmarked, and lets be real, this offense also struggles because of how infefficient DHam his while having a high usage rate and the up and down play of Purvis from not only game to game but within the same game. DHam, Purvis, and Gibbs not being the automatic 14-15ppg, efficient scorer that we thought he would be are bigger concerns to me than an offensive scoring donut at the 5. I hear your points, I just don't think Enoch fixes or provides all that you claim he does.

I didn't say he fixes anything. This is about getting the most effective line-ups on the court, and maximizing capability. If SE is taking the minutes from PN and Kelis Fisher, we are going to lose almost nothing as it is, while boosting our team in exactly the areas we are very poor.

My main point is, if we can establish him, get him some confidence, we can pack PN away for good, and have a more versatile team moving forward. And in tournament play, versatility is key.

 

[bmayuc]

It shows in on/off splits, which I haven't been able to find for college. But basically, you can see if a team rebounds better when a given player is on the floor vs. off.


I hope you're right. He has the body for it and his hands are amazing, but scouts tend to use blocks & steals as a proxy for innate athleticism, and Enoch has 2 blocks and 0 steals in 148 minutes of college ball. Given that and his inability to rebound out-of-area - why wasn't he taking rebounds away from Hamilton instead of the other way around? - I do think there's a lower ceiling than maybe you're willing to see.

Did I say he had a high ceiling? I don't remember that. I think you are putting words where I didn't put any.

I could not care less about his innate athleticism. The kid moves well for a 6'11, 255lb kid. I'll let my eyes tell me that. He dunks with authority. I'm good with that. The kid literally doesn't know how to play D1 defense. He's getting better, and I think his positional anchoring against "bigger" post players has been MUCH better recently. So I'll give him the offseason to let the game slow down for him on defense. The one thing he does do is work his butt off, I'm good with that.

But, Right Now, SE does things offensively and effort-wise that we do not have in our toolbox outside of SE. He catches the ball. He finishes at the rim. He can finish off a post-up. He has touch. He doesn't get pushed around on the Defensive boards; he does the pushing, and he sets brick-wall screens.

All of those things are significant improvements over anyone else on the roster, especially and importantly are almost diametrically opposite of Brimahs skills. It means they can complement each other and change looks.

My argument is simple. THere is no downside. We already have the 3rd best FG defense. Our problem is rebounding, scoring the ball, and being efficient. If he nudges the bar even a tiny bit there, its a huge weapon to have in your belt come tourney time, and an important bit of development for next year.

 

[Matrim55]

Did I say he had a high ceiling? I don't remember that. I think you are putting words where I didn't put any.

Here's your previous post...

That rebound rate is going to get higher with a larger sample size.

I'm telling you, he's going to be an excellent volume rebounder as he gets his feet wet in College ball.

You seem very worked up and unable to keep your thoughts straight, so I'll bow out of this conversation now.

 

[bmayuc]

Here's your previous post...


You seem very worked up and unable to keep your thoughts straight, so I'll bow out of this conversation now.

So I didn't say "high ceiling". Thanks for correcting yourself.

 

[Onions]

To get better, the kid needs floor time, mileage whatever you want to call it, and until he gets the time he's going to make mistakes whether it's this year or next. Rather it be this year. Same for Jalen, although KO is just coming around to him on PT. For someone who is 6'11" 250 with offense, would our record be worse if he had gotten another 6-7 minutes a game?

Yes.

 

[Onions]

Did I say he had a high ceiling? I don't remember that. I think you are putting words where I didn't put any.

I could not care less about his innate athleticism. The kid moves well for a 6'11, 255lb kid. I'll let my eyes tell me that. He dunks with authority. I'm good with that. The kid literally doesn't know how to play D1 defense. He's getting better, and I think his positional anchoring against "bigger" post players has been MUCH better recently. So I'll give him the offseason to let the game slow down for him on defense. The one thing he does do is work his butt off, I'm good with that.

But, Right Now, SE does things offensively and effort-wise that we do not have in our toolbox outside of SE. He catches the ball. He finishes at the rim. He can finish off a post-up. He has touch. He doesn't get pushed around on the Defensive boards; he does the pushing, and he sets brick-wall screens.

All of those things are significant improvements over anyone else on the roster, especially and importantly are almost diametrically opposite of Brimahs skills. It means they can complement each other and change looks.

My argument is simple. THere is no downside. We already have the 3rd best FG defense. Our problem is rebounding, scoring the ball, and being efficient. If he nudges the bar even a tiny bit there, its a huge weapon to have in your belt come tourney time, and an important bit of development for next year.

Defense at this level is a team concept. If one player is out of position then there is no defensive integrity. One player's lapses changes you from a great defensive team to a terrible defensive team, which is why under KO, who is a defense first coach, if you can't play team defense you can't stay on the floor, no matter your other skills. Enoch is doing fine when you remember that they were talking about red shirting him this year because of his lack of experience. Despite what Allen Iverson said, a player at this level learns in practice as well as during game time. When Enoch is ready to play he will play, whether it's this year or next.

 

[mauconnfan]

He has really impressive body control and fluidity, which is 1) part of athleticism that's often overlooked, and 2) why he's a more advanced offensive player than any of us thought. But he lacks explosiveness off the floor.

And he's not a pretty good rebounder by any measure -- his total rebound rate of 13% is just a smidgen higher than Amida, who grabs 12.5% of available boards. Facey is at 17.6% and Hamilton is at 16.3%. Tolbert, from SMU, leads the conference at 19%, and guys like Farr from Xavier and Ochefu from Villanova are both over 20%.

I haven't looked at the on/off splits too closely. My impression is that we rebound slightly better with Enoch on the court since, as someone else pointed out, he does a nice job of boxing out. But he still needs a lot of work on his athleticism and rebounding instincts.

EDIT: I just looked at sports-reference, and they have Enoch with 2 blocked shots in 148 total minutes.

One thing those stats miss is that Steve boxes out and keeps guys away - 2 or 3 rebounds either DHam or Miller got his guy was kept from getting in the scrum and that's huge too. He does that better and more than AB, Facey or Phil and that piece is not in the total rebound rate.

 

[Huskyforlife]

Nolan is a smarter defender, knows where to be, doesn't lose his guy, etc. Enoch doesn't get pushed around ever, which gives him great potential for what he CAN be on defense. However, Nolan is clearly superior in this aspect, but we didn't need Nolan tonight.

 

[Chief00]

The interesting thing to me is that per the article Enoch seems to be getting mentoring from Coach Hobbs not Coach Miller.

 

[Rico444]

What I love about Enoch is his strength. Every big we face, whenever they have good position in the pain, is able to push all of our bigs around and get very close to the basket....except for Enoch. He doesn't give up an inch in the paint, whether on defense or when it comes to rebounding position. As soon as the light comes on defensively for him, he's going to be a difference-maker.

 

[mauconnfan]

What I love about Enoch is his strength. Every big we face, whenever they have good position in the pain, is able to push all of our bigs around and get very close to the basket....except for Enoch. He doesn't give up an inch in the paint, whether on defense or when it comes to rebounding position. As soon as the light comes on defensively for him, he's going to be a difference-maker.

And I don't think he knows his strength yet and that's exciting too.

 

[UConnRock]

Jalen is 20 years old, Enoch is 18. Jalen was more able to contribute at the start of the season and has taken on a major role. Jalen had the skills that needed refining. Enoch is still in developmental stages with many skills to develop. He has made a lot of progress this year. It will be very exciting to see what Enoch develops into.

 

[bmayuc]

Defense at this level is a team concept. If one player is out of position then there is no defensive integrity. One player's lapses changes you from a great defensive team to a terrible defensive team, which is why under KO, who is a defense first coach, if you can't play team defense you can't stay on the floor, no matter your other skills. Enoch is doing fine when you remember that they were talking about red shirting him this year because of his lack of experience. Despite what Allen Iverson said, a player at this level learns in practice as well as during game time. When Enoch is ready to play he will play, whether it's this year or next.

Seems like Defense-First coach Kevin Ollie has decided that he's ready to play, since he played him 20 minutes and has say that "the future is now".