The Deion Sanders factor... | Page 4 | The Boneyard

The Deion Sanders factor...

Mora’s way > Prime’s way.
Mora, as he tends to do everything, upgraded the roster with class. Quietly having the conversations that should be one on one and not in public.
In my opinion, Prime’s way is indefensible. I know he’s a star and the talking heads love him, but he could overhaul the roster without those grand public statements.
Speaking of Prime, does anyone else remember when Dave Brown (Giants mistake at QB) ran him over? As great as he was, there is film out there of him being run over by a QB. And not a very good one.
 
Dizzy21 said:
The guy had a job to do, quickly determine who has it to make it and who doesn't and get rid of those who don't and bring in those who do. This is the same thing that basically every elite military unit does and in the same way, attempt to make them think they can't make it and give them no timeline on when the being hard on them will stop. They test will and mental toughness and not physical talent because success is determined much more by will and mental toughness than the others. That combination is the quickest way to weed out people who are not mentally tough, especially with ambiguity combined with being tough on them. One could view this all as him being a bad coach for being such an to them, or you can view him as a great coach for taking some of the most researched and effective methods for determining the intangible of will with a bunch of people he doesn't know and doesn't have the time to get to know well yet.

To me, he is quickly analyzing what he has, dumping what doesn't work and attracting the players that do. Doing this, putting people through all of that and seeing lots of people get weeded out is also another great method to form team unity for those who make it, taking care of peoples concerns of forming a team rather than mercenaries. All of them will immediately feel that bond and cohesion that making it through common hard experiences tends to bring to groups of people and you cant do that without making it hard or without cutting lots of people to make it special.
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This is the opposite of what i want to see in somebody making personnel decisions because it carries way too much faith in that's selector's absolute talent in doing so and a need to do so that disrupts any hope of a positive culture. This kind of thinking is all the hallmarks of a terrible boss who alienates talent.
 
Dizzy21 said:
You have it pretty wrong. I watched a few episodes of his behind the scenes show, Deions public persona and how he coaches and leads the team are very different.
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Deion is always aware of the camera. I would never trust a "behind the scenes show" to tell me how people behave when the camera is off. They are all scenes.
 
The poster who equated the weeding process to elite military units resonated with me. I saw that back in the 60's.
 
Palatine said:
It will be interesting to see if DS can teach teamwork when his entire existence is based on Me-work.
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Do you even listen to him? the actual words that come out of his mouth... or focus on his demeanor?... his demeanor screams me me me... but what comes out of his mouth, much different... but that's the way the world is nowadays, unfortunately... He knows he has a platform now... and he's using it...
 
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Culture...

The football of Butkus is long gone.

Athletes now have choreographed dances in the end zone, do the "look at me" flex over an opponent....the culture is now one of "look at me...me...me"....It isn't farmboys from Nebraska anymore.
 
Nebraska farm boys, Butkus football are all gone, replaced by something better in many cases. That said, there will always be a place in this world for classy people like Mora, Tomlin and many others. A large segment of parents will always want their kids to be coached by them.
 
I've seen raving lunatics coaching on the sideline of courts....screamers.

I've watched a cursing, screaming, spitting, Mickey Andrews become a great defensive coordinator.

Luckily, my son had emotionally solid coaches right through college...but maybe that is soccer.
 
Bubba1957 said:
Mora’s way > Prime’s way.
Mora, as he tends to do everything, upgraded the roster with class. Quietly having the conversations that should be one on one and not in public.
In my opinion, Prime’s way is indefensible. I know he’s a star and the talking heads love him, but he could overhaul the roster without those grand public statements.
Speaking of Prime, does anyone else remember when Dave Brown (Giants mistake at QB) ran him over? As great as he was, there is film out there of him being run over by a QB. And not a very good one.
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Prime seems to give up on players he feels aren't going to work for him. Mora seems to at least try to make things work for both parties, but if it doesn't, he does everything he can to make sure that player still sees as much success as possible.
 
Patman said:
This is the opposite of what i want to see in somebody making personnel decisions because it carries way too much faith in that's selector's absolute talent in doing so and a need to do so that disrupts any hope of a positive culture. This kind of thinking is all the hallmarks of a terrible boss who alienates talent.
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It is actually the only way that carries no weight in the selectors talent. The person either gives up and stops working as hard or they don't and succeed. I actually help recruiters select talent for a living in corporate America with testing and data, and first of all I don't suggest them doing any of this. It is also not very feasible to do during the selection process in corporate settings amongst a bunch of other things.

I do however know a lot of companies are turning to sending their teams off to be treated harshly in things like Navy Seal Hell week selection like programs. It does wonders for team building. In Deion's case from testimony of some of the people who got kicked out, he is simply doing this to weed people out fast that are quitters and forming that common bond for those that stay. Then once they are in, they are in and treated as family, while still being held to high standards.

It really is a fantastic way to select people who have a very high chance at success and building a strong bond between those that stay in a SHORT amount of time where you don't have the time to get to know them like in the High School recruiting process.
 
Dizzy21 said:
Surprisingly it is still used today as the best method to determine the characteristics of success.
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Yeah...Parris Island was a mild weeding of the weak...Then, as a Force Recon applicant..I had to get through endurance tests...once accepted, the opportunities to wash out were plenty. At the Coronado Seal/UDT base, the instructors worked you while cold, sleep deprived, and exhausted. It was a matter of mental toughness to not join the washouts...but my team made it through the underwater beach recon school....crimping a cap on a fuse while shaky cold and dead tired helped you focus...jump school was a vacation in comparison.

I did not learn a thing useful in civilian life, demolition, weapons, etc...but the discipline and training of will did influence my life and sucess.

I once was at a discussion with Fortune 500 execs and they were talking about the power that such a position wields...My thought? A 21 year old NCO had more power..... the power to, with a wave of his hand, send a squad up into murderous machine gun fire...if he waved that hand, they went without question. It was that way on Tarawa, Pelieu, Okinawa, etc....discipline and mental toughness.
 
.-.
Dizzy21 said:
The guy had a job to do, quickly determine who has it to make it and who doesn't and get rid of those who don't and bring in those who do. This is the same thing that basically every elite military unit does and in the same way, attempt to make them think they can't make it and give them no timeline on when the being hard on them will stop. They test will and mental toughness and not physical talent because success is determined much more by will and mental toughness than the others. That combination is the quickest way to weed out people who are not mentally tough, especially with ambiguity combined with being tough on them. One could view this all as him being a bad coach for being such an to them, or you can view him as a great coach for taking some of the most researched and effective methods for determining the intangible of will with a bunch of people he doesn't know and doesn't have the time to get to know well yet.

To me, he is quickly analyzing what he has, dumping what doesn't work and attracting the players that do. Doing this, putting people through all of that and seeing lots of people get weeded out is also another great method to form team unity for those who make it, taking care of peoples concerns of forming a team rather than mercenaries. All of them will immediately feel that bond and cohesion that making it through common hard experiences tends to bring to groups of people and you cant do that without making it hard or without cutting lots of people to make it special.
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I can't equate a decent college football program to an elite military unit. College kids playing football in exchange for an education vs. SEALS and Rangers. I haven't read the whole thread but I'd wager at some point it backfires and he fails because it would be impossible to find 100 kids willing to put up with shinola for the privilege of playing at Colorado, or any program for that matter.
 
I think Deion is a fraud, but what do I know.

Can't wait to see how he does once his kid leaves for the pros.....IF he sticks around that is. I could totally see a scenario where his kid graduates, Deion tries to follow him to the League as an assistant coach, and hands the reins to whomever is CU's OC or DC at the time. I believe that's why the Kent State head coach left to join Sanders' staff, because he thinks it's the short path to a P5 job.

Deion seems akin to those CEOs who specialize in corporate turnarounds, where they come in, fire everybody, appoint a new executive regime, re-staff the enterprise and leave with a whole bunch of vested options and restricted stock, and then sit back and criticize the new managers if the stock price drops. 'Chainsaw' Al Dunlap would be proud, LOL.
 
billybud said:
Yeah...Parris Island was a mild weeding of the weak...Then, as a Force Recon applicant..I had to get through endurance tests...once accepted, the opportunities to wash out were plenty. At the Coronado Seal/UDT base, the instructors worked you while cold, sleep deprived, and exhausted. It was a matter of mental toughness to not join the washouts...but my team made it through the underwater beach recon school....crimping a cap on a fuse while shaky cold and dead tired helped you focus...jump school was a vacation in comparison.

I did not learn a thing useful in civilian life, demolition, weapons, etc...but the discipline and training of will did influence my life and sucess.

I once was at a discussion with Fortune 500 execs and they were talking about the power that such a position wields...My thought? A 21 year old NCO had more power..... the power to, with a wave of his hand, send a squad up into murderous machine gun fire...if he waved that hand, they went without question. It was that way on Tarawa, Pelieu, Okinawa, etc....discipline and mental toughness.
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Fascinating story you have. Thank you for your service!
 
Dizzy21 said:
Same characteristics are needed for both and in anything really. It simply answers the question of how you are going to act when you are physically and mentally done. It is the easiest way to determine if you are going to work through issues or quit on your team when the going gets tough. Success in anything is a very small part talent and mostly will and having the grit to stick it through. There are smart successful people in sports, military and business and dumb successful people in all of those, naturally talented and not naturally talented in all. The one thing successful people have in common that is nearly universal is an unstoppable will to push through everything. Now having that will doesn't guarantee success and someone not having it doesn't exclude success, but it can tell you 90% of the story right there, which is way better than any other thing by orders of magnitude.

And on the whole getting kids to do this. The guy is having no problem replacing the ones he told to leave with much better prospects.
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You could probably just say Deion wants to bring in his own recruits and because he is prime time, he will be able to bring in better, more talented players, and leave it at that. And yeah, talent really is a big deal. See Jordan Hawkins, Kemba Walker, Ray Allen, Rip...I think saying kids who have played football most of their lives and managed to get recruited to play at Colorado don't have the mental toughness to succeed is a bit of a stretch. Sure, based on Colorado's record maybe they aren't the best of the best at playing football.

And no, it's not the same characteristics. Elite military soldiers are an extremely rare breed. College football players, come on.

and btw, I think the student athletes should 100% come first. A new coach should accept the job and be committed to working with the kids who first committed to the university. That's the way it should be, in my opinion, right or wrong. Even Colonel Jessup felt an obligation to train the young men rather than transfer the whole Windward Division off the base.
 
Dizzy21 said:
The guy had a job to do, quickly determine who has it to make it and who doesn't and get rid of those who don't and bring in those who do. This is the same thing that basically every elite military unit does and in the same way, attempt to make them think they can't make it and give them no timeline on when the being hard on them will stop. They test will and mental toughness and not physical talent because success is determined much more by will and mental toughness than the others. That combination is the quickest way to weed out people who are not mentally tough, especially with ambiguity combined with being tough on them. One could view this all as him being a bad coach for being such an to them, or you can view him as a great coach for taking some of the most researched and effective methods for determining the intangible of will with a bunch of people he doesn't know and doesn't have the time to get to know well yet.

To me, he is quickly analyzing what he has, dumping what doesn't work and attracting the players that do. Doing this, putting people through all of that and seeing lots of people get weeded out is also another great method to form team unity for those who make it, taking care of peoples concerns of forming a team rather than mercenaries. All of them will immediately feel that bond and cohesion that making it through common hard experiences tends to bring to groups of people and you cant do that without making it hard or without cutting lots of people to make it special.
Expand ...
That's a lot of words to describe a scorched earth policy.
 
.-.
huskymedic said:
Matt Brown @ExtraPoints:
www.extrapointsmb.com

Colorado football's massive roster purge sucks, actually:

It's risky on the field...and even worse off the field.
www.extrapointsmb.com www.extrapointsmb.com
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He runs the risk of not having enough guys to run a decent practice. I like Aaron Torres but I have to disagree on a significant turnaround this year. It's more likely going to be a hot mess. Will be there for their homecoming and it should be interesting.
 
Dizzy21 said:
Yes, one of his secondary jobs is to help the kids under him grow and succeed in life and school,
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I think you are downplaying this part of his job. If winning is 1a, then developing kids is 1b. Again...this is college...not the NFL.

His approach to turning over this team is unprecedented. And his unprecedented actions have impacted many kids lives. His comments after the turnover do not communicate strong leadership to me.

You brought up Mora...did one kid raise concerns with how Mora handled their situation? He pushed many kids into the portal...but he did it the right way...by respecting them as people.

This may work....he may eventually get his wins...I just think he could have handled this better.
 
ShakyTheMohel said:
I think you are downplaying this part of his job. If winning is 1a, then developing kids is 1b. Again...this is college...not the NFL.

His approach to turning over this team is unprecedented. And his unprecedented actions have impacted many kids lives. His comments after the turnover do not communicate strong leadership to me.

You brought up Mora...did one kid raise concerns with how Mora handled their situation? He pushed many kids into the portal...but he did it the right way...by respecting them as people.

This may work....he may eventually get his wins...I just think he could have handled this better.
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I mean Edsall 2.0 kind of did the same thing except he didn’t replenish the roster with caliber players. Mora pushed a lot of kids through the portal, but kept all the returners. I mean it’s not a surprised that if not most of our starters who went through the portal have found another FBS home. At least most of the kids who went 1-11 at Colorado who started have found another fbs school. The difference between Mora and Deion is, Mora can develop your starters to the next level whereas I don’t think Deion can hence he isn’t really trying to develop the players that’s why he’s going to the portal for seasoned players. Time will tell how Deion develop younger guys when he has a true freshmen class. Gotta give him at least 3-4 years to see how Colorado does. College football is a business, these kids know their scholarships are not a guaranteed when there is a change of leadership on top of that it’s not necessarily the coach job to find you a home when you leave especially if you don’t have film. This is where your high school coaches come in handy to vouch for you.
 
ShakyTheMohel said:
I think you are downplaying this part of his job. If winning is 1a, then developing kids is 1b. Again...this is college...not the NFL.

His approach to turning over this team is unprecedented. And his unprecedented actions have impacted many kids lives. His comments after the turnover do not communicate strong leadership to me.

You brought up Mora...did one kid raise concerns with how Mora handled their situation? He pushed many kids into the portal...but he did it the right way...by respecting them as people.

This may work....he may eventually get his wins...I just think he could have handled this better.
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Could not have said it better.
 
I hope he's tremendous failure. That's not how you treat people.
 
Guru13 said:
I mean Edsall 2.0 kind of did the same thing except he didn’t replenish the roster with caliber players
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Edsall didn't push 50 kids into the portal. It's the number that is unprecedented. And from what we heard.... Edsall did a pretty crappy job of treating the players fairly. Lots of "he played his guys" comments. . And he was fired.

Guru13 said:
The difference between Mora and Deion is, Mora can develop your starters to the next level whereas I don’t think Deion can hence he isn’t really trying to develop the players that’s why he’s going to the portal for seasoned players.
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I would say the difference between Mora and Sanders is that Mora has proven he can lead and motivate. Do you remember the tweet he sent out when Krajewski went into the portal? That's leadership...he is showing his kids that he gives a crap about them as people...even when it doesn't work out for them on his team. Kids see that and want to play hard for a coach like that.

 
.-.
ShakyTheMohel said:
Edsall didn't push 50 kids into the portal. It's the number that is unprecedented. And from what we heard.... Edsall did a pretty crappy job of treating the players fairly. Lots of "he played his guys" comments. . And he was fired.


I would say the difference between Mora and Sanders is that Mora has proven he can lead and motivate. Do you remember the tweet he sent out when Krajewski went into the portal? That's leadership...he is showing his kids that he gives a crap about them as people...even when it doesn't work out for them on his team. Kids see that and want to play hard for a coach like that.

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I get you dislike what Deion did, like I said it’s business, yea he pushed out 50 kids but at the same time kids are still being offered by him and committing so at the end of the day they want to play under him. For the Ex players, yea it sucks you were booted, but Deion did tell them what was going to happen. Deion has proven he can lead and motivate, yea he did it at the lower level and P5 schools were losing recruits to JSU. We can say the way he went about it was the wrong way, but the administration of Colorado could care less and just want to see their football team be relevant again, there is no loyalty when it comes to college football.
 
Guru13 said:
I get you dislike what Deion did, like I said it’s business, yea he pushed out 50 kids but at the same time kids are still being offered by him and committing so at the end of the day they want to play under him. For the Ex players, yea it sucks you were booted, but Deion did tell them what was going to happen. Deion has proven he can lead and motivate, yea he did it at the lower level and P5 schools were losing recruits to JSU. We can say the way he went about it was the wrong way, but the administration of Colorado could care less and just want to see their football team be relevant again, there is no loyalty when it comes to college football.
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He has not proven he can lead and motivate. He has proven he can recruit.
 
ShakyTheMohel said:
I am curious to see just how good of a coach he is. He can compete in recruiting...but can he compete in leadership and X's and O's?
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I think, looking at his staff, he is going to be hands off Xs and Os. More like a leadership coach.

That said, he was coaching high school for like 15 years while working nfl coverage. That isn’t X’s and Os, per se, but he has a good idea about what makes young people tick
 
JohnFSilver said:
I think, looking at his staff, he is going to be hands off Xs and Os. More like a leadership coach.

That said, he was coaching high school for like 15 years while working nfl coverage. That isn’t X’s and Os, per se, but he has a good idea about what makes young people tick
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It sounds like you think he is more of a figurehead as a coach. Kinda like Bobby Bowden....his coach at FSU became. Will that work for a guy not established yet?

I do agree he resonates with some kids....I just think the jury is out on whether he can lead a program to win tough games against other top coaches.
 
ShakyTheMohel said:
It sounds like you think he is more of a figurehead as a coach. Kinda like Bobby Bowden....his coach at FSU became. Will that work for a guy not established yet?

I do agree he resonates with some kids....I just think the jury is out on whether he can lead a program to win tough games against other top coaches.
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I mean if you got the right guys. No different than soccer really where your top guy is often about getting the right people and he passes off strategy to his assistants. This is not a new model. Let's face it. The HC role is far more managerial and they may not have time to get to Xs and Os as much.

I think Neon Deion is going to have problems but that's because he's going to churn and burn out players like no tomorrow. This type of a setup isn't wrong unto itself
 
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