The criminally underrated

[Kolumbo]

Shawn Kemp is a name I hardly ever hear. I wouldn't say he was underrated but I remember watching that team with Gary Payton. Nomar posted a video interviewing Xaver McDaniel in the Michael Jordan GOAT thread and X mentions Shawn Kemp. The story was Larry Legend told Shawn Kemp that Larry was the best player to come out of Indiana and shot a 3 pointer in his face. Geez, this whole team might be underrated.

1995-96
Gary Payton 19.3, 7.5 asst
Detlef Schrempf 17.1, 40.8% 3 pt
Hersey Hawkins 15.6
Shawn Kemp 19.6, 11.4 rebounds
Sam Perkins 11.8

1995-96 Seattle SuperSonics Roster and Stats | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the latest Seattle SuperSonics Roster and Stats for 1995-96 on Basketball-Reference.com

www.basketball-reference.com

Not sure if you’re being facetious (because I’ve watched about a thousand videos about Bird’s trash talking) but assuming your aren’t: yes, he did.

X-Man tells a great story but he did it multiple times.



https://amp.foxsports.com/stories/n...s-the-great-larry-bird-was-jusuthless-bastard

 

[TheChamps990411]

Kevin Mcreynolds. Absolutely no one mentions him but he was a good left fielder that shouldve won a gold glove and put up numbers at the plate year after year and could steal a base even though he wasnt very fast. Great baseball player for the Padres and Mets.

 

[Kolumbo]

Vijay Singh
I don't know if he is underrated. I followed golf more closely for a while and during that time, Vijay was always on the leader board. He never seemed to be talked about as much as everyone else.

 

[The Yakk]

Vijay Singh
I don't know if he is underrated. I followed golf more closely for a while and during that time, Vijay was always on the leader board. He never seemed to be talked about as much as everyone else.

Singh was a known cheater who had a weird and unlikeable personality. I think the tour was hoping he would just go away.

But at his peak he was fantastic. Probably if he were more marketable, he would have got more hype.

A great example for this discussion!

 

[CONN78SEJ]

Vijay Singh
I don't know if he is underrated. I followed golf more closely for a while and during that time, Vijay was always on the leader board. He never seemed to be talked about as much as everyone else.

If you’re talking golf, it’s going back a ways but I’d say Billy Casper, Greg Norman, Gene Littler, and Fairfield CT’s Julius Boros were all underrated.

 

[temery]

Vijay Singh
I don't know if he is underrated. I followed golf more closely for a while and during that time, Vijay was always on the leader board. He never seemed to be talked about as much as everyone else.

In tennis, Vijay Armitraj was underrated. His highest ranking was 18, but he won 15 tournaments.

 

[CONN78SEJ]

In tennis, Vijay Armitraj was underrated. His highest ranking was 18, but he won 15 tournaments.

Armitraj had a son or brother who was also pretty good, IIRC.

 

[temery]

Armitraj had a son or brother who was also pretty good, IIRC.

'I think they both became actors. Vijay was great in a Bond film.

Edit: yes, his brother was a player, but his highest rank was around 200. He was much more successful as an actor.

Ashok Amritraj | Producer, Actor, Writer

Known for: The Boondock Saints, Machete, Antitrust

www.imdb.com

Ashok Amritraj | Overview | ATP Tour | Tennis

Official tennis player profile of Ashok Amritraj on the ATP Tour. Featuring news, bio, rankings, playing activity, coach, stats, win-loss, points breakdown, videos, and more.

www.atptour.com

 

[CONN78SEJ]

'I think they both became actors. Vijay was great in a Bond film.

Edit: yes, his brother was a player, but his highest rank was around 200. He was much more successful as an actor.

Ashok Amritraj | Producer, Actor, Writer

Known for: The Boondock Saints, Machete, Antitrust

www.imdb.com

Ashok Amritraj | Overview | ATP Tour | Tennis

Official tennis player profile of Ashok Amritraj on the ATP Tour. Featuring news, bio, rankings, playing activity, coach, stats, win-loss, points breakdown, videos, and more.

www.atptour.com

Wasn’t thinking of Ashok, was thinking of Anand Amitraj. IIRC Anand teamed up with Vijay for some noise in the majors playing doubles together. His highest ranking in singles was definitely under 100, and won some tournaments IIRC.

 

[TheChamps990411]

If you ever watched "Once Upon a Time in Queens", the final episode has a quote, I think from Strawberry, but maybe Mookie, that Reynolds was a poor fit with Mets because "he didn't love baseball".

And given the choice between McReynolds and the guy he was traded for, I'll go with Kevin Mitchell as underrated. How many actual baseball fans remember than Mitchell won an MVP with the Giants. As that same OUATIQ series points out, Cashen was kinda racist and thought Mitchell was a bad influence on Gooden and Straw, even though Mitchell was remarkably clean living compared to those two.

Had nothing to do with the topic but from 87-91 they put up virtually the same numbers with the exception of that one big MVP season Mitchell had overall McReynolds was the more consistent better player.

 

[Waquoit]

Wasn’t thinking of Ashok, was thinking of Anand Amitraj. IIRC Anand teamed up with Vijay for some noise in the majors playing doubles together. His highest ranking in singles was definitely under 100, and won some tournaments IIRC.

The Flying Amritraj Brothers as Bud Collins used to say.

 

[CONN78SEJ]

The Flying Amritraj Brothers as Bud Collins used to say.

Back in the 70’s and 80’s Bud Collins and Donald Dell, after Wimbledon concluded, would broadcast American satellite tennis tournaments on PBS leading up to the US Open. Dell and Collins did the play by play, and Barry Mackay did the courtside stuff. Always enjoyed listening to their insight and commentary. I remember Collins referring to Jimmy Connors as “the brash basher”, Harold Solomon and Eddie Dibbs as the “bagel twins”.

 

[Buzzyboy]

Thurman Munson who should have been nominated for the Baseball Hall Of Fame but he died in a plane crash. He was well into his career and had numbers essentially similarly to Carlton Fisk ... He was in his 11th season when he died and had won Rookie of the Year, MVP, multiple Golden Glove awards as well as Sporting News Player of the Year and he doesn't even get a sniff of the Hall of Fame ... Another Yankee who had a great career was Don Mattingly whose lifetime statistics are quite similar to Kirby Puckett and both their careers ended due to health issues ... Puckett lost vision in one eye while Mattingly's back issues precipitated his premature retirement ... he won multiple Golden Glove awards, was the 1985 MVP along with Sporting News Player of the Year, multiple Silver Slugger awards, the Lou Gehrig Memorial Award and this year Todd Helton is going into the Hall of Fame with virtually the same statistics with one less All Star appearance, 6 less Golden Gloves, one more Silver Slugger and he didn't win an MVP like Mattingly ... his lifetime average is slightly better at .316 to Mattingly's .307, with 43 doubles compared to Mattingly's 40, 7 more home runs per year and 1 more RBI a year ... the stats are almost identical and yet Mattingly never got a sniff despite being a better defensive player who might have saved more games, just with his glove ... Sad about the media bias towards most Yankee ballplayers

 

[storrsroars]

Thurman Munson who should have been nominated for the Baseball Hall Of Fame but he died in a plane crash. He was well into his career and had numbers essentially similarly to Carlton Fisk ... He was in his 11th season when he died and had won Rookie of the Year, MVP, multiple Golden Glove awards as well as Sporting News Player of the Year and he doesn't even get a sniff of the Hall of Fame ... Another Yankee who had a great career was Don Mattingly whose lifetime statistics are quite similar to Kirby Puckett and both their careers ended due to health issues ... Puckett lost vision in one eye while Mattingly's back issues precipitated his premature retirement ... he won multiple Golden Glove awards, was the 1985 MVP along with Sporting News Player of the Year, multiple Silver Slugger awards, the Lou Gehrig Memorial Award and this year Todd Helton is going into the Hall of Fame with virtually the same statistics with one less All Star appearance, 6 less Golden Gloves, one more Silver Slugger and he didn't win an MVP like Mattingly ... his lifetime average is slightly better at .316 to Mattingly's .307, with 43 doubles compared to Mattingly's 40, 7 more home runs per year and 1 more RBI a year ... the stats are almost identical and yet Mattingly never got a sniff despite being a better defensive player who might have saved more games, just with his glove ... Sad about the media bias towards most Yankee ballplayers

There are cases to be made for both based on lesser players who were voted in, but they're not strong cases statistically for either.

In fact, a solid argument could be made that Mattingly is only fifth most deserving of HoF consideration among just 1st basemen who played in NY post-1980.

Munson has a better case, especially if Yadier Molina or Buster Posey get in. Looking at the top 5 contemporary catchers not yet in HoF, Munson's case is decent.

But the real reason I wanted to reply to your post was the absurd last line, which simply confirms once again my opinion of Yankee fans as the most whiny, spoiled, entitled community in all of sports.

 

[CONN78SEJ]

There are cases to be made for both based on lesser players who were voted in, but they're not strong cases statistically for either.

In fact, a solid argument could be made that Mattingly is only fifth most deserving of HoF consideration among just 1st basemen who played in NY post-1980.

View attachment 102385

Munson has a better case, especially if Yadier Molina or Buster Posey get in. Looking at the top 5 contemporary catchers not yet in HoF, Munson's case is decent.

View attachment 102384

But the real reason I wanted to reply to your post was the absurd last line, which simply confirms once again my opinion of Yankee fans as the most whiny, spoiled, entitled community in all of sports.

……and your favorite MLB team is?

 

[storrsroars]

……and your favorite MLB team is?

The perennial doormats of the NL Central Pittsburgh Pirates.

 

[Jaydumo20]

There are cases to be made for both based on lesser players who were voted in, but they're not strong cases statistically for either.

In fact, a solid argument could be made that Mattingly is only fifth most deserving of HoF consideration among just 1st basemen who played in NY post-1980.

View attachment 102385

Munson has a better case, especially if Yadier Molina or Buster Posey get in. Looking at the top 5 contemporary catchers not yet in HoF, Munson's case is decent.

View attachment 102384

But the real reason I wanted to reply to your post was the absurd last line, which simply confirms once again my opinion of Yankee fans as the most whiny, spoiled, entitled community in all of sports.

Out of all of these the Mark Texeira stats are the most eye opening. I've heard the Mattingly argument from most Yankee fans, and I usually side with them. But put his numbers next to others and it's not as obvious. Good work.
Also, in regards to the last line, I've heard many say that Rizzuto wouldn't have gotten in WITHOUT the pinstripes.

 

[CONN78SEJ]

The perennial doormats of the NL Central Pittsburgh Pirates.

I know how you feel, I suffered as a Yankee fan all through the mid and late 60’s, early 70’s, and then 1976 happened.

 

[The Yakk]

Thurman Munson who should have been nominated for the Baseball Hall Of Fame but he died in a plane crash. He was well into his career and had numbers essentially similarly to Carlton Fisk ... He was in his 11th season when he died and had won Rookie of the Year, MVP, multiple Golden Glove awards as well as Sporting News Player of the Year and he doesn't even get a sniff of the Hall of Fame ... Another Yankee who had a great career was Don Mattingly whose lifetime statistics are quite similar to Kirby Puckett and both their careers ended due to health issues ... Puckett lost vision in one eye while Mattingly's back issues precipitated his premature retirement ... he won multiple Golden Glove awards, was the 1985 MVP along with Sporting News Player of the Year, multiple Silver Slugger awards, the Lou Gehrig Memorial Award and this year Todd Helton is going into the Hall of Fame with virtually the same statistics with one less All Star appearance, 6 less Golden Gloves, one more Silver Slugger and he didn't win an MVP like Mattingly ... his lifetime average is slightly better at .316 to Mattingly's .307, with 43 doubles compared to Mattingly's 40, 7 more home runs per year and 1 more RBI a year ... the stats are almost identical and yet Mattingly never got a sniff despite being a better defensive player who might have saved more games, just with his glove ... Sad about the media bias towards most Yankee ballplayers

Much respect for Thurman Munson, but LOL comparing him to Carlton Fisk.

LOL comparing Mattingly--a lefty hitting half his at bats in short-porch Yankee Stadium--to Kirby Puckett, who had 25% more offensive WAR and much greater defensive value.

And extra giggles for citing gold gloves--an award voted on by the media--won at first base by a player with negative defensive value, in the very same comment where you complain about the media bias against the Yankees.

It is amazing the contortions that Yankee fans will go through to cast themselves as underdogs/victims, all while their team gets every break imaginable and is constantly féllated by the media.

Anyway, kudos to you for breaking new ground. When are you coming with the HOF case for Bernie Williams?

 

[CONN78SEJ]

Much respect for Thurman Munson, but LOL comparing him to Carlton Fisk.

LOL comparing Mattingly--a lefty hitting half his at bats in short-porch Yankee Stadium--to Kirby Puckett, who had 25% more offensive WAR and much greater defensive value.

And extra giggles for citing gold gloves--an award voted on by the media--won at first base by a player with negative defensive value, in the very same comment where you complain about the media bias against the Yankees.

It is amazing the contortions that Yankee fans will go through to cast themselves as underdogs/victims, all while their team gets every break imaginable and is constantly féllated by the media.

Anyway, kudos to you for breaking new ground. When are you coming with the HOF case for Bernie Williams?

Bucky Dent too.

 

[David 76]

Much respect for Thurman Munson, but LOL comparing him to Carlton Fisk.

LOL comparing Mattingly--a lefty hitting half his at bats in short-porch Yankee Stadium--to Kirby Puckett, who had 25% more offensive WAR and much greater defensive value.

And extra giggles for citing gold gloves--an award voted on by the media--won at first base by a player with negative defensive value, in the very same comment where you complain about the media bias against the Yankees.

It is amazing the contortions that Yankee fans will go through to cast themselves as underdogs/victims, all while their team gets every break imaginable and is constantly féllated by the media.

Anyway, kudos to you for breaking new ground. When are you coming with the HOF case for Bernie Williams?

At least Munson never got dropped from his team.

 

[Waquoit]

As a Sox fan, I liked Mattingly. He was a cooler. Then he quits and the Yanks go on a title run.

 

[Buzzyboy]

Much respect for Thurman Munson, but LOL comparing him to Carlton Fisk.

LOL comparing Mattingly--a lefty hitting half his at bats in short-porch Yankee Stadium--to Kirby Puckett, who had 25% more offensive WAR and much greater defensive value.

And extra giggles for citing gold gloves--an award voted on by the media--won at first base by a player with negative defensive value, in the very same comment where you complain about the media bias against the Yankees.

It is amazing the contortions that Yankee fans will go through to cast themselves as underdogs/victims, all while their team gets every break imaginable and is constantly féllated by the media.

Anyway, kudos to you for breaking new ground. When are you coming with the HOF case for Bernie Williams?

How many MVP titles to Fisk get? At the time of his death, their stats

Much respect for Thurman Munson, but LOL comparing him to Carlton Fisk.

LOL comparing Mattingly--a lefty hitting half his at bats in short-porch Yankee Stadium--to Kirby Puckett, who had 25% more offensive WAR and much greater defensive value.

And extra giggles for citing gold gloves--an award voted on by the media--won at first base by a player with negative defensive value, in the very same comment where you complain about the media bias against the Yankees.

It is amazing the contortions that Yankee fans will go through to cast themselves as underdogs/victims, all while their team gets every break imaginable and is constantly féllated by the media.

Anyway, kudos to you for breaking new ground. When are you coming with the HOF case for Bernie Williams?

 

[Huskyforlife]

Kevin Durant is a top 3 basketball player of all time for me.

There’s gonna be uncomfortable conversations about Christian McCaffery when he retires. His career numbers are gonna be bonkers.

Markus Howard at Marquette was an incredible scorer, go look up his raw stats.

I thought Derek Carr was a much better prospect than consensus. But I’m not sure he’s underrated, picking a college football one is tough.

 

[The Yakk]

How many MVP titles to Fisk get? At the time of his death, their stats

Doubling down, beautiful. Only a true Yankee fan would say Munson's career was comparable to Fisk's.

Catcher WAR Leaders

All-Time Catcher WAR Rankings List of CATCHERS ranked by Wins Above Replacement. Which Catcher had the most Career WAR? Which Catcher had the most WAR in his seven best seasons, or three best seasons? We list Catchers by WAR in their best five consecutive seasons. Also find JAWS rankings. Sort...

baseballegg.com

Munson was a great player. Peak value very close to Fisk's, though Fisk was a hair better. But Munson's career was cut short before he could accumulate HOF numbers. And there's no guarantee he would have done that.

Sad, but it's the Hall of Fame not the Hall of What-Might-Have-Been. Otherwise we'd have people making cases for Herb Score and Doc Gooden.

I think your real beef is not with the HOF voters, but with the capricious Gods of fate that took Munson's life too soon. Your frustration is understandable.