The Big Five Conferences are going to break away

[businesslawyer]

Well at least they'll die rich. I'd love for UConn to be able to wipe its tears with 20 million a year.

What good is the money if you can't compete with who you play. You don't get to pay the money out to shareholders. It only matters if it helps you be more competitive.

 

[Exit 4]

This really is a bad long term idea. It generates no new fans, alienates the 10-15% of fans who are loyal to the Gang of Five, and will turn off a population that dislikes the idea of paying players.

They are only going to play each other? Are Wake, Wazzu and Iowa State going to play 12 road games? How can dozens of schools sustain 8 game home slates?

Fans of schools that win 9-10 games like clockwork are going to be fun to watch adjusting to 6-7 wins.

The dregs who go 5-7 beating FCS and MAC teams are going to be real popular with 2 and 3 win seasons.

Most of our old Big East friends will die in that world: Rutgers, Syracuse, Boston College... They would be lucky to get bowl eligible 1 year out of 3 if they only play within the Big 5.

Couldn't agree more with your assessment.... If P5 plays only p5 or limits non P5 games to one a year, many schools accustom to 9, 10, 11 win seasons will have to learn to live with 6, 7 and 8 win seasons or less, perhaps way less. While I understand it, I personally don't care for where this is seemingly headed. This approach might make the P5 more money in the short term, but not so certain it will grow interest and revenues in the long term. A pool of 60 to 70 "have" teams is too small, it needs to be bigger with the opportunities for P5 partial independent status for schools like Boise and UConn.

 

[junglehusky]

What good is the money if you can't compete with who you play. You don't get to pay the money out to shareholders. It only matters if it helps you be more competitive.

If it were us instead of Cuse or Pitt or Louisville in the ACC, with the budget they'll get from the ACC TV deal, you don't think we'd be as competitive as those schools? BC made the ACC championship game - don't you think UConn could manage that at least once a decade or so?

It'll be interesting to see if the SEC is actually on board with cutting out the FCS / Sun Belt type guarantee games. It seems like the other leagues are moving in the direction of more conference games... I'm not sure what that means for MWC / AAC schools making the cutoff for the super-FBS but I have my doubts about whaler's argument that the breakaway wind up being a total backfire for the whole enterprise. Fans love their schools, the schools will continue to have students that turn into alumni, networks will probably continue to pay lots of money to broadcast football games whether the regular season games are de-facto playoffs (as some people say they have been before the 4 team playoff) or if the value of regular season games is de-emphasized (as you could argue the NFL does with a 16 game schedule and the availability of the wild card).

 

[whaler11]

If it were us instead of Cuse or Pitt or Louisville in the ACC, with the budget they'll get from the ACC TV deal, you don't think we'd be as competitive as those schools? BC made the ACC championship game - don't you think UConn could manage that at least once a decade or so?

It'll be interesting to see if the SEC is actually on board with cutting out the FCS / Sun Belt type guarantee games. It seems like the other leagues are moving in the direction of more conference games... I'm not sure what that means for MWC / AAC schools making the cutoff for the super-FBS but I have my doubts about whaler's argument that the breakaway wind up being a total backfire for the whole enterprise. Fans love their schools, the schools will continue to have students that turn into alumni, networks will probably continue to pay lots of money to broadcast football games whether the regular season games are de-facto playoffs (as some people say they have been before the 4 team playoff) or if the value of regular season games is de-emphasized (as you could argue the NFL does with a 16 game schedule and the availability of the wild card).

They have a really good thing going. I could be wrong, the change could get them another 5, 10, 15 million each. Since they will just spend it in an arms race it doesn't net out as a positive - so why take the risk it's less successful?

 

[junglehusky]

They have a really good thing going. I could be wrong, the change could get them another 5, 10, 15 million each. Since they will just spend it in an arms race it doesn't net out as a positive - so why take the risk it's less successful?

Heheh...if our company increases sales, we're just going to re-invest it back into new employees and enter new markets where we might not be successful, shouldn't we just keep selling the same amount of products and stay the same size? And if I get a raise I'm only going to spend all it on luxury items that I want, shouldn't I avoid the risk of pissing off my boss and not ask for a raise?

 

[whaler11]

Heheh...if our company increases sales, we're just going to re-invest it back into new employees and enter new markets where we might not be successful, shouldn't we just keep selling the same amount of products and stay the same size? And if I get a raise I'm only going to spend all it on luxury items that I want, shouldn't I avoid the risk of pissing off my boss and not ask for a raise?

The difference of course being that college football doesn't have a direct competitor.

This plan clearly loses fans. It does not generate any new fans that wouldn't have been generated in the current state.

We saw plenty of UConn fans who boycotted the NCAA tourney because of a one year ban. If you and the P5 think it's a good idea to have fans of 60 schools react in the same fashion to a permanent college football ban I question your sanity - we'll probably find out who is right.

 

[noeynox]

The difference of course being that college football doesn't have a direct competitor.

This plan clearly loses fans. It does not generate any new fans that wouldn't have been generated in the current state.

We saw plenty of UConn fans who boycotted the NCAA tourney because of a one year ban. If you and the P5 think it's a good idea to have fans of 60 schools react in the same fashion to a permanent college football ban I question your sanity - we'll probably find out who is right.

I agree. If UConn isn't playing at the highest level, why am I going to bother with College football? Don't get me wrong I love college football (even before I followed UConn football) but if the team I root for is excluded from competing I'm not watching. Similar to how I would always watch whatever Big East football game was on SNY, often bypassing more exciting games on other channels. I will not watch another Pitt, SU, RU or Ville game again unless they're either playing UConn or are in the same conference in the future. I'm not hating, I just always enjoyed watching the teams in our conference. I will now watch games involving Houston, ECU etc as we begin to compete against them regularly. If in the future we are back to some FCS type level, I'll follow UConn as long as I can but overall, I'll just focus on the pro sports.

 

[junglehusky]

noey, I think whaler is saying (and correct me if I'm wrong) that fans of mid to bottom pack teams in power5 conferences will be less interested in college football in general, including their own teams and conferences, even though their schools will keep raking in the dough and competing, because they will no longer play the Southwest Central Louisiana Mud Dawgs and will beat each other up with their more competitive schedules, which will eventually lead to contraction of the fanbase. Now... maybe that could happen but to me it won't be because nobody's playing SWCLU anymore, or because players are getting $10,000 stipdends. It might happen if the concussion lawsuits do start to snowball like Big Tobacco and the rules of football have to be radically changed. But I don't think Texas and Alabama and USC are going to base their decisions about the future subdivision based on schools like Indiana or Kentucky going from 3 win seasons to 1 win seasons.

Fans of teams oustide the power 5 are another question. If the AAC is not in the highest level, yeah it'll be really tough to get fans to keep supporting the program if the biggest game is going to be USF and we know everybody we play is a rung below the top tier of football. If we're in the top tier but there's still a disadvantage of money, I think things will continue similarly for schools like UConn, Cincy, Boise - as long as we can win and knock off some of the power five teams, show we can compete, then I think fans will support the team.

 

[noeynox]

Thanks, I misunderstood, but I agree with his overall point. CFB will lose fans if they marginalize certain teams and don't come up with a criteria that can be met for teams/programs seeking to move up. In basketball, not only did we compete at the highest level but we dominated. In football we competed well and won our share as an upstart. If allowed to continue to compete on a somewhat even playing field I think football can rise even higher. I like this talk of a new division, more than I like waiting for us to get invited to a P5 conference.

 

[Exit 4]

And one of the attractive qualities of college BB is the ability to have small or new programs burst on the scene and challenge the goliaths..... Its fun to see if the shooting star school can burn bright beyond a single season and its fun to see if the goliaths can remain as such over the short and long term. Div 4 is certainly an effort to end the possibility of disruptive upstarts for college FB. When its all said and done we'll know if the P5 meant to block the UConn, Hawaii and Boise St's of the past decade or just the East Carolina, Georgia St, and occasional MAC school.

 

[Sea Goat]

I would like to see all three New England programs grow and thrive, as well as North Eastern football in general. Your right it has been done, and it can be done again. That was a very insightful, well thought out piece of writing! Hats off to you. We had our chance in the early days of the BIG EAST, if it would have been a YEA instead of a NEY to Penn St., and then went after Maryland, just imagine ....the Great North East Conf.

Yea, the PSU rejection was critical! But it was predictable. For 33 years, the old BE was run by ex-Providence College AD's until Aresco took over last summer. PC doesn't have football (or baseball for that matter) and the BE powers at the time were blind to the ascendency of football as the most important college sport. In addition, the Catholic members, with the exception of BC, didn't have D-1 football and could not have cared less about it. BC saw the exit opportunity early and should have and did take it. As an aside, the fact that Aresco has kept the AAC's offices in Providence remains one of the best jokes of CR.

 

[BCINGYA]

Yea, the PSU rejection was critical! But it was predictable. For 33 years, the old BE was run by ex-Providence College AD's until Aresco took over last summer. PC doesn't have football (or baseball for that matter) and the BE powers at the time were blind to the ascendency of football as the most important college sport. In addition, the Catholic members, with the exception of BC, didn't have D-1 football and could not have cared less about it. BC saw the exit opportunity early and should have and did take it. As an aside, the fact that Aresco has kept the AAC's offices in Providence remains one of the best jokes of CR.

The small bb schools destroyed the BE. They held a lot of power as a voting block and were able to keep the football schools in line so to speak. What a shame the football playing schools didn't have the foresight to leave then. Miami, V.T., B.C., U Conn, Pitt, Syracuse, W.V., Rutgers, and you have a solid core of membership. Then go ahead and accept Penn State, pry Maryland away, re-admit temple down the road perhaps recruit Navy and you have a solid 12 team North Eastern Conference. Penn State, Miami, and V.T. would have made a great cornerstone. What could have been.....

 

[junglehusky]

The small bb schools destroyed the BE. They held a lot of power as a voting block and were able to keep the football schools in line so to speak. What a shame the football playing schools didn't have the foresight to leave then. Miami, V.T., B.C., U Conn, Pitt, Syracuse, W.V., Rutgers, and you have a solid core of membership. Then go ahead and accept Penn State, pry Maryland away, re-admit temple down the road perhaps recruit Navy and you have a solid 12 team North Eastern Conference. Penn State, Miami, and V.T. would have made a great cornerstone. What could have been.....

Yeah I wonder about that alternate history too. The "Eastern league" would have had to come together way in the early days of the BE, or even before the the formation of the BE. It would have needed college football having more of a head start in the east coast than basketball, so the EL could be founded as an all sports league. Then the catholic schools form their basketball conference. The question for UConn in this alternate universe is - would they get an invite to the Catholic league, or would they stay in the Yankee conference until they decide to upgrade to the EL? Would they have the success in MBB and WBB to facilitate that upgrade in the 80s or 90s? And then would Miami, BC, Cuse etc. still be targets of the ACC in the late 90's onwards?

 

[BCINGYA]

Yeah I wonder about that alternate history too. The "Eastern league" would have had to come together way in the early days of the BE, or even before the the formation of the BE. It would have needed college football having more of a head start in the east coast than basketball, so the EL could be founded as an all sports league. Then the catholic schools form their basketball conference. The question for UConn in this alternate universe is - would they get an invite to the Catholic league, or would they stay in the Yankee conference until they decide to upgrade to the EL? Would they have the success in MBB and WBB to facilitate that upgrade in the 80s or 90s? And then would Miami, BC, Cuse etc. still be targets of the ACC in the late 90's onwards?

I think U Conn would have held out for inclusion in a new North Eastern Conference. I say this because I think they would have preferred (most schools do) an all sports conference as opposed to splitting the bb program and placing it into a small Catholic league. Granted it would have not been the best bb conference out there, but it certainly would have held it's own.

 

[UPitt]

The small bb schools destroyed the BE. They held a lot of power as a voting block and were able to keep the football schools in line so to speak. What a shame the football playing schools didn't have the foresight to leave then. Miami, V.T., B.C., U Conn, Pitt, Syracuse, W.V., Rutgers, and you have a solid core of membership. Then go ahead and accept Penn State, pry Maryland away, re-admit temple down the road perhaps recruit Navy and you have a solid 12 team North Eastern Conference. Penn State, Miami, and V.T. would have made a great cornerstone. What could have been.....

That would make for a nice conference, but the timing would have never worked out. PSU was denied in the 80,s. Then chose the Big 10 and would not have come back. Without PSU, Maryland was not joining. Miami was added to fill a football void and was only added because PSU was not. VT was added a few years after Miami, but did not have the clout to be in a football first league at the time. And more importantly than all of that, Uconn did not have a D-1 football team until 1999 and did not play in BE until 2003.

Basically, if a football league formed in the 80's it would have PSU and Maryland, but no Uconn, Miami, or VT. If the league formed in the 90's it would have Miami and VT (possibly), but no Uconn, PSU, or Maryland.

It's fun to play the what if game, but in reality one moment defined the Big East more than any others. The Big East turned down PSU and has forever paid the price. Each of the Major conferences have "blue blood" or "cornerstone" Universities. The Pac has USC, UCLA, Stanford. The B1G has Mich, OSU, PSU. The B12 has Texas, OK. The SEC has Bama, Florida, Georgia, Tenn, Vand, etc. The ACC has UNC, DUKE (BB), FSU, Virginia. The Big East had Miami, Pitt, WVU, Cuse. With 4 localized private schools leading the charge, the Big East was never in a position to compete with the other conferences. PSU and Maryland would have provided additional regional and national support.

 

[UPitt]

Yeah I wonder about that alternate history too. The "Eastern league" would have had to come together way in the early days of the BE, or even before the the formation of the BE. It would have needed college football having more of a head start in the east coast than basketball, so the EL could be founded as an all sports league. Then the catholic schools form their basketball conference. The question for UConn in this alternate universe is - would they get an invite to the Catholic league, or would they stay in the Yankee conference until they decide to upgrade to the EL? Would they have the success in MBB and WBB to facilitate that upgrade in the 80s or 90s? And then would Miami, BC, Cuse etc. still be targets of the ACC in the late 90's onwards?

Miami would have never been in the eastern league. they were only invited into the BE because the BE dropped the ball on PSU. Miami would have been added to the SEC or ACC in the early 90's. As for Uconn, it is hard to say. The Eastern League was to be an exclusive league formed around football centric schools. Uconn was clearly a Basketball centric school and likely would not have tried to join the Eastern League. Pitt, Cuse, and others chose Big East BB over Eastern League FB at a time when Pitt had recently won a NC and had a top 5 FB program with a 25+ BB program.

 

[woomba]

Each of the Major conferences have "blue blood" or "cornerstone" Universities. The Pac has USC, UCLA, Stanford. The B1G has Mich, OSU, PSU. The B12 has Texas, OK. The SEC has Bama, Florida, Georgia, Tenn, Vand, etc. The ACC has UNC, DUKE (BB), FSU, Virginia. The Big East had Miami, Pitt, WVU, Cuse. With 4 localized private schools leading the charge, the Big East was never in a position to compete with the other conferences. PSU and Maryland would have provided additional regional and national support.

If you're talking about "blue blood" in terms of FB or BB prowess some of those schools on that list seem out of place. Stanford's only been good the past 4-5 years and Vandy has never accomplished much in either sport. Nebraska's also missing despite having a better history than schools like Georgia

 

[woomba]

This really is a bad long term idea. It generates no new fans, alienates the 10-15% of fans who are loyal to the Gang of Five, and will turn off a population that dislikes the idea of paying players.

I think what's missing is the data on what percentage of CFB TV viewers nowadays have any ties to an FBS FB playing school - a vested interest in the result to see if it helps their own team in the rankings.

This was definitely skewed to alums and fans historically but if non-vested fans make up a decent chunk of the viewer base nowadays (or can be compelled to watch depending on the quality of the product), I can see the logic that better competition will drive up over ratings even if they lose viewership from fans of smaller schools.

 

[BCINGYA]

Miami would have never been in the eastern league. they were only invited into the BE because the BE dropped the ball on PSU. Miami would have been added to the SEC or ACC in the early 90's. As for Uconn, it is hard to say. The Eastern League was to be an exclusive league formed around football centric schools. Uconn was clearly a Basketball centric school and likely would not have tried to join the Eastern League. Pitt, Cuse, and others chose Big East BB over Eastern League FB at a time when Pitt had recently won a NC and had a top 5 FB program with a 25+ BB program.

The post was a perfect storm of what Ifs'.....I for one would have loved this lineup. The football aspect of the B.E. was formed around 1989. What if Penn state had joined shortly after? before the BIG could have asked? or them seeking out the BIG? They are the lynchpin. This would have been after Miami was a member a few years. With Penn State in the fold would Miami have been satisfied? V.T. was beginning to make a name for itself and W.V. was well established. I don't find it so far fetched.

 

[whaler11]

I think what's missing is the data on what percentage of CFB TV viewers nowadays have any ties to an FBS FB playing school - a vested interest in the result to see if it helps their own team in the rankings.

This was definitely skewed to alums and fans historically but if non-vested fans make up a decent chunk of the viewer base nowadays (or can be compelled to watch depending on the quality of the product), I can see the logic that better competition will drive up over ratings even if they lose viewership from fans of smaller schools.

There are people not watching CFB at all because there aren't good enough games?

Maybe there is some percentage of people who only watch the top matchups - but every Saturday in almost every time slot there are compelling games. If the average televised game was a better matchup I would guess you'd further spread the audience between them rather than increase the total audience. Unless P5 schools are going to start playing on Wednesday and Friday - as far as television ratings go you can only watch one game at a time.

 

[woomba]

There are people not watching CFB at all because there aren't good enough games?

It wouldn't surprise me if that's true - If you look at the ratings the past few years you see that generally speaking ranked teams draw better regardless of conference affiliation / opponent. That's probably partially due to the casual fan tuning in because they don't know enough about the sport to filter any other way.

Maybe there is some percentage of people who only watch the top matchups - but every Saturday in almost every time slot there are compelling games. If the average televised game was a better matchup I would guess you'd further spread the audience between them rather than increase the total audience. Unless P5 schools are going to start playing on Wednesday and Friday - as far as television ratings go you can only watch one game at a time.

Right now that's true in aggregate but not as true at the regional/conference level because of the OOC, scheduling, and bye weeks. Cutting off the lower conferences would alleviate that to a great extent.

I'm not sure if a new division will definitely grow interest compared to the status quo but I don't think a decline is a given either.

 

[UPitt]

If you're talking about "blue blood" in terms of FB or BB prowess some of those schools on that list seem out of place. Stanford's only been good the past 4-5 years and Vandy has never accomplished much in either sport. Nebraska's also missing despite having a better history than schools like Georgia

I was talking "blue blood" or "cornerstone" in terms of the whole package (FB, BB, fanbase, history, national recognition) that a team provides for a conference. Every Major conference has a few teams that you associate with that conference that garner national appeal. The Big East lacked teams that fit into that role. The ACC only has two stand alone teams that fit this role, but the UNC-Duke rivalry and UNC-Virginia connections help provide an additional cornerstone. You can argue that the BE had some BB national appeal cornerstones, but realignment has been defined by football. I agree with Nebraska and the same can be said for Texas A&M, but I was just trying to show that the BE clearly lacked the "cornerstone" schools that the other Major conferences have.

 

[whaler11]

This sounds pretty different than most of the speculation:

http://m.si.com/3201829/whats-next-in-college-sports-talk-of-seismic-change-in-the-air/

 

[B1GALUM]

BCS chiefs flaming NCAA, but can they agree among themselves?
http://www.cbssports.com/collegefoo...ng-ncaa-but-can-they-agree-amongst-themselves

 

[junglehusky]

BCS chiefs flaming NCAA, but can they agree among themselves?
http://www.cbssports.com/collegefoo...ng-ncaa-but-can-they-agree-amongst-themselves

Since 1987, 19 schools have moved up to FBS. None of those are in a BCS league (Big 12, Pac-12, Big Ten, ACC, SEC). Yeager suggested the upper level of FCS looks more like the bottom level of FBS than the lower tier of FBS looks like the BCS schools

One school is in a BCS league!!!!!! Must... resist... urge... to punch Dennis Dodd...

 

[B1GALUM]

Big Ten's Jim Delany endorses NCAA approach to change: http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...any-endorses-ncaa-approach-to-change/3328041/
ROSEMONT, Ill. — Two days after high-ranking college athletics officials met in Indianapolis to discuss potential changes to the NCAA's governance structure, Big Ten commissioner Jim Delany applauded the efforts.
"I thought it was a good step," Delany told reporters at Big Ten men's basketball media day Thursday. "There's been a lot of talk about restructuring over the last six months to a year, a lot of feelings of frustration. Most of the conference commissioners over the summer were reflecting the frustration that was coming from within their conferences for a variety of reasons. Sometimes, it's the practitioners not having a chance to participate. Sometimes, it's not being able to get at certain critical areas that they feel like they need to get at."
Delany reiterated the sentiment that conference commissioners from the "Big 5" conferences — ACC, Big Ten, Big 12, SEC and Pac-12 — hope to gain more power and control in a new governance model so they can use their vast resources to address issues like the full cost of attendance, something that may not be affordable or feasible for all of the NCAA member schools.
"We've at least preliminarily concluded we don't want to leave the NCAA, and we don't need a Division IV," Delany said. "We can be in a big tent if we can get the appropriate matter of political redistribution. We can have an (NCAA men's basketball) tournament, everyone can be in it. We can do revenue sharing. We can all brand together. We can all be Division I together. We can all have a big tent.
"But the conditions for that are that we need the political autonomy and the political authority to address things we must address on behalf of our student-athletes, on behalf of our universities. We have the resources to do it, and we need the authority to do it. How that happens, we'll work that out over the next weeks and months. ...
"We don't want to draw lines and put certain people in and certain people out." ...

 

[CL82]

. As an aside, the fact that Aresco has kept the AAC's offices in Providence remains one of the best jokes of CR.

Bigger fish to fry (or more important fires to put out.) The question is where does it end up. Without UConn, does the American have even a nominal claim to NYC?

 

[upstater]

That would make for a nice conference, but the timing would have never worked out. PSU was denied in the 80,s. Then chose the Big 10 and would not have come back. Without PSU, Maryland was not joining. Miami was added to fill a football void and was only added because PSU was not. VT was added a few years after Miami, but did not have the clout to be in a football first league at the time. And more importantly than all of that, Uconn did not have a D-1 football team until 1999 and did not play in BE until 2003.

Basically, if a football league formed in the 80's it would have PSU and Maryland, but no Uconn, Miami, or VT. If the league formed in the 90's it would have Miami and VT (possibly), but no Uconn, PSU, or Maryland.

It's fun to play the what if game, but in reality one moment defined the Big East more than any others. The Big East turned down PSU and has forever paid the price. Each of the Major conferences have "blue blood" or "cornerstone" Universities. The Pac has USC, UCLA, Stanford. The B1G has Mich, OSU, PSU. The B12 has Texas, OK. The SEC has Bama, Florida, Georgia, Tenn, Vand, etc. The ACC has UNC, DUKE (BB), FSU, Virginia. The Big East had Miami, Pitt, WVU, Cuse. With 4 localized private schools leading the charge, the Big East was never in a position to compete with the other conferences. PSU and Maryland would have provided additional regional and national support.

1988 was the last time Paterno tried to get into the BE and was pushed back. He said he had Maryland in his pocket. He made these comments at a dinner in 1991. I have no idea why he would lie about being rejected.

 

[tzznandrew]

1988 was the last time Paterno tried to get into the BE and was pushed back. He said he had Maryland in his pocket. He made these comments at a dinner in 1991. I have no idea why he would lie about being rejected.

Again...the what ifs...does football conference of:

Boston College
Maryland
Miami
Penn State
Pitt
Rutgers
Syracuse
Temple (They were in it, only reason I list them...)
Virginia Tech
West Virginia

ever get raided? Don't they get Florida State instead of the ACC?

 

[FDNY99]

Again...the what ifs...does football conference of:

Boston College
Maryland
Miami
Penn State
Pitt
Rutgers
Syracuse
Temple (They were in it, only reason I list them...)
Virginia Tech
West Virginia

ever get raided? Don't they get Florida State instead of the ACC?

Those schools in both football and basketball with their own network and cable subscriber numbers would have been ROLLING IN SERIOUS CASH!!!!!!!