The Big Five Conferences are going to break away

[freescooter]

College already is semi pro, they just don't get paid for it. Changing up the rules to allow payments wont change that fact.

My other response is, people will still be watching on Thursdays, Saturdays or any other day because of one overriding factor. A lot of college sports fans have a attachment to their team that a pro team doesn't have, they went to the university/college and their success is a point of pride. I will always be happier with my university's success than any pro team simply because I am a part of that university. There are millions of alumni who feel the same way and give lots of money to support their teams winning. Giving money to players wont change that. That alone will continue to drive the popularity of college sport whether they are amateur or semi pro.

yeah, but you're not in the majority or even close. When the NFL started running Thursday nigh football not only did their ratings blow away the competition (the lowest rated Thursday game did a 4.1, which exceeded the combined ratings of ESPN college game and the NBA on TBS) but the average ratings for college football on Thursday night fell 35%. And that was against the NFL network which was not on the "free" tier initially on several networks. And actually you make my point to some extent, I think. When football begins severing its ties with universities that sponsor it, it also loosens its ties with Alumni and Students which over time can lead to a loss of fans. If the Ohio State Buckeyes are simply a semi-pro minor league team that plays in Columbus, they will see a gradual erosion of the very bond you describe. And in 2030, they'll look up and find that the fan base has shrunk, attendance has shrunk and ratings are closer to the USFL than the old Big Ten. A similar thing has been occurring in college basketball where ratings are way off and ratings have been slowly slipping for several years. A contributor has been the 1 and done syndrome.

 

[freescooter]

So if UCONN started playing players and was still successful, you wouldn't watch it or care? COME ON!

NOTHING will change if they start playing players. People will still show up to watch games, people will still donate money to the booster clubs, and people will still care alot if their team wins or loses.

It is more than "just" paying players. And I'm already "in the system." I'm talking about long term changes where future generations of alumni begin to lose interest because the programs are no longer "part of the university." the question isn't whether I will care, it is whether my kids will.

 

[Pudge]

Slippery slope.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

You are absolutely kidding yourself if you think college sports will suddenly become relegated to minor league fandom if players get paid.

One minor difference between the two, just ever so tiny.

Big state schools have hundreds of thousands of living alumni and represent states for Christ sake.

But yeah, I'm sure all of a sudden UConn would become as popular as the new Britain rock cats.

Then again we have people on here saying they won't go to games because off the helmets, so who knows.

 

[Husky25]

The new division will close that loophole. Teams wont be barred from joining the new division but the financial requirements will be so large that basically the P5 and some additional teams will be the only ones that have the finances to join the new division.
The playoff structure currently allows any team in the FBS to compete for the championship (including the G5) if they meet certain criteria. This will be the case in the new division as well except in your example ODU wouldn't be in the new division to compete because they likely wouldn't have the finances to be in the new division.

The free market tenets will be there in the new division. Anyone can join, anyone can compete for the championship. The cost of entry will be so high that only a select group will actually be able to do that though.

Unless the requirements are deemed a penalty.

Upon what are the requirements based? Endowment? Average attendance? If they want to only include the P5 + ND, I think the inclusion formula has the potential to be so convoluted that that it would be seen as far too subjective, thereby raising anti-trust issues again.

 

[larryredbull]

yeah, but you're not in the majority or even close. When the NFL started running Thursday nigh football not only did their ratings blow away the competition (the lowest rated Thursday game did a 4.1, which exceeded the combined ratings of ESPN college game and the NBA on TBS) but the average ratings for college football on Thursday night fell 35%. And that was against the NFL network which was not on the "free" tier initially on several networks. And actually you make my point to some extent, I think. When football begins severing its ties with universities that sponsor it, it also loosens its ties with Alumni and Students which over time can lead to a loss of fans. If the Ohio State Buckeyes are simply a semi-pro minor league team that plays in Columbus, they will see a gradual erosion of the very bond you describe. And in 2030, they'll look up and find that the fan base has shrunk, attendance has shrunk and ratings are closer to the USFL than the old Big Ten. A similar thing has been occurring in college basketball where ratings are way off and ratings have been slowly slipping for several years. A contributor has been the 1 and done syndrome.

Your describing a break from the university itself which isnt going to happen. As long as OSU keeps playing at their football stadium on the OSU campus then they will be seen as the OSU buckeyes just like they are now. Alumni will still come back to see games and still follow their team like before.

 

[Husky25]

You are absolutely kidding yourself if you think college sports will suddenly become relegated to minor league fandom if players get paid.

One minor difference between the two, just ever so tiny.

Big state schools have hundreds of thousands of living alumni and represent states for Christ sake.

But yeah, I'm sure all of a sudden UConn would become as popular as the new Britain rock cats.

Then again we have people on here saying they won't go to games because off the helmets, so who knows.

For some, it would be a sudden phenomenon. For others, it will be a gradual decline.

Speaking personally...No I would not care about UConn football as much as I do now. I would care to the point that I care about the Pawtucket Red Sox or the New Britain Rock Cats. Strictly entertainment and fun if I have the time, but not appointment viewing and probably won't carry the same passion. I probably would not renew my season tickets and the donation to the athletic dept. as required currently by my 3 year agreement, would go to the Accounting Dept.

 

[larryredbull]

Unless the requirements are deemed a penalty.

Upon what are the requirements based? Endowment? Average attendance? If they want to only include the P5 + ND, I think the inclusion formula has the potential to be so convoluted that that it would be seen as far too subjective, thereby raising anti-trust issues again.

It will be on scholarships (current FCS is 63, FBS is 85). The difference will be the additional stipend to players (@ at 4,000 per player per year thats another 680,000 per year (85 mens, 85 womens)), average attendance, an other items that raise expenditures). Not a lot of money but I would bet it will continue to rise. For a conference outside of the P5 not getting a huge TV contract, the additional money for stipends, the ever rising cost of competition (coaching salaries, facilities, etc) may make it a losing proposition to join the new division.

Another thing to consider is the fact that most lower level teams lose money on their football programs because they all have dreams of making it big, and its thought of as a "front door" for the university. In these cases the University is heavily subsidizing the football team through student fees and University money. Right now , there is a slim chance that those universities could get to a big game and provide the university with all the recognition they have dreamed of. In the future with the new division, they would have to pony up even more money that they already don't have. I expect most won't choose to spend more money to fund a pipe dream.

 

[Husky25]

It will be on scholarships (current FCS is 63, FBS is 85). The difference will be the additional stipend to players (@ at 4,000 per player per year thats another 680,000 per year (85 mens, 85 womens)), average attendance, an other items that raise expenditures). Not a lot of money but I would bet it will continue to rise. For a conference outside of the P5 not getting a huge TV contract, the additional money for stipends, the ever rising cost of competition (coaching salaries, facilities, etc) may make it a losing proposition to join the new division.

It's already a losing proposition for many schools, including some of the haves.

 

[UCFBfan]

It will be on scholarships (current FCS is 63, FBS is 85). The difference will be the additional stipend to players (@ at 4,000 per player per year thats another 680,000 per year (85 mens, 85 womens)), average attendance, an other items that raise expenditures). Not a lot of money but I would bet it will continue to rise. For a conference outside of the P5 not getting a huge TV contract, the additional money for stipends, the ever rising cost of competition (coaching salaries, facilities, etc) may make it a losing proposition to join the new division.

Another thing to consider is the fact that most lower level teams lose money on their football programs because they all have dreams of making it big, and its thought of as a "front door" for the university. In these cases the University is heavily subsidizing the football team through student fees and University money. Right now , there is a slim chance that those universities could get to a big game and provide the university with all the recognition they have dreamed of. In the future with the new division, they would have to pony up even more money that they already don't have. I expect most won't choose to spend more money to fund a pipe dream.

Ok so what happens to the schools who are moving to new conferences but not getting enough cash up front. Saw today ACC will give full shares to Pitt and Cuse but WVU/TCU not getting full share for 3 more years and RU and MD not for 7 yrs. Where they gonna get the money to meet requirements?

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[larryredbull]

It's already a losing proposition for many schools, including some of the haves.

Yes I amended my original response. I would also expect some of the haves to drop out as well (like Tulane did in the SEC) . Schools like Wake Forest, Washington State, Utah, Colorado, Iowa State, and Boston College might decide that the costs just aren't providing a return any longer.
Schools like UCF, ECU, Houston, UNLV, and USF get more of their revenue from Student Fees, and the university funds than anywhere else. Are they going to pony up even more to pay athletes, especially since governments are continuing to cut university contributions. I dont think they will

 

[John Greene]

I skimmed most of the posts here and it seems that many are placing undue faith in legal or political protections for non P5 schools.

Just because someone (many on this board) believes something is "unjust or biased" does not make it illegal.

Public schools may have some political pull but have you noticed that the states included in the P5 footprint are every large population state not in the northeast?

All they have to do is tell the NCAA they want a "super division" for football. Heck they even have a name CFA (College Football Association). I'm sure many of you old timers remember that name from the past.

 

[huskymedic]

I skimmed most of the posts here and it seems that many are placing undue faith in legal or political protections for non P5 schools.

Just because someone (many on this board) believes something is "unjust or biased" does not make it illegal.

Public schools may have some political pull but have you noticed that the states included in the P5 footprint are every large population state not in the northeast?

All they have to do is tell the NCAA they want a "super division" for football. Heck they even have a name CFA (College Football Association). I'm sure many of you old timers remember that name from the past.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_v._Board_of_Regents_of_the_University_of_Oklahoma

Still think they may be an "anti-competitive" angle to this Division 4 but...

 

[larryredbull]

Ok so what happens to the schools who are moving to new conferences but not getting enough cash up front. Saw today ACC will give full shares to Pitt and Cuse but WVU/TCU not getting full share for 3 more years and RU and MD not for 7 yrs. Where they gonna get the money to meet requirements?

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Good question, see my next post, I think you could see some move down eventually (not immediately) All of the ones you mentioned I would expect to stay. They will find the money to stay.

 

[noeynox]

Haveng read every post in this thread, but college sports is headed to a very bad place. Rivalries be damned, a lot of good ones have been terminated over this mad dash for the dollars. I wonder how long these large athletic departments can continue the cbarade of being non profit entities.

 

[John Greene]

Haveng read every post in this thread, but college sports is headed to a very bad place. Rivalries be damned, a lot of good ones have been terminated over this mad dash for the dollars. I wonder how long these large athletic departments can continue the cbarade of being non profit entities.

They are not "non profit" entities they are" tax exempt" entities. That could change but don't hold your breath until the congressional delegations of CA, TX, FL, IL,MN,PA, GA, NC,WA, MD, etc. agree to start taxing the sports arms of their public universities.

 

[noeynox]

What grants them tax exempt status?

 

[John Greene]

What grants them tax exempt status?

Some of the lawyers here could be of more help than me but I think it is because they are arms of entities that reinvest any "surplus" they make into activities that are deemed to have a charitable or academic purpose. Now congress could decide that big time college sports no longer qualify, but as I said don't hold your breath. The states represented in the P5 have a lot more congressional clout. I can't think of any state with a large delegation except for NY and MA that does not have THE state school in the P5.

 

[BCINGYA]

Yes I amended my original response. I would also expect some of the haves to drop out as well (like Tulane did in the SEC) . Schools like Wake Forest, Washington State, Utah, Colorado, Iowa State, and Boston College might decide that the costs just aren't providing a return any longer.
Schools like UCF, ECU, Houston, UNLV, and USF get more of their revenue from Student Fees, and the university funds than anywhere else. Are they going to pony up even more to pay athletes, especially since governments are continuing to cut university contributions. I dont think they will

Wishful thinking on your part, (funny how you had to slip B.C. in there LOL) a true hater. B.C. has an endowment that rivals any of the largest programs. Matter of fact they are opening the checkbook early this fall when they unveil their master plan for Athletics. Including building new facilities, and updating existing facilities, over a wide spectrum of sports. Its war chest is full and they are ready to spend. You might say we are in it for the LONG HAUL. Enjoy.

 

[Fishy]

In the case of the Dukes, Wake Forests and the like, they're grouped in the 'born lucky' camp.

They'll be pulled along by the interests of the very big fish - Texas, Michigan, Ohio State, Florida, Alabama, etc. This is about those schools controlling their own destiny and their own bank accounts. Maybe there's 15 to 20 schools of that heft.

They can't ditch everyone because, simply, they have to play someone.

The artificial divide comes into view when you look at the vast majority of those "power conference" schools and the schools outside of that structure that are essentially their equals in revenue and expenses. (There will be gaps going forward - before the current explosion in rights fees, UConn and, say, Georgia Tech and West Virginia were basically even...that can't be the case given the AAC television contract.)

 

[John Greene]

Wishful thinking on your part, (funny how you had to slip B.C. in there LOL) a true hater. B.C. has an endowment that rivals any of the largest programs. Matter of fact they are opening the checkbook early this fall when they unveil their master plan for Athletics. Including building new facilities, and updating existing facilities, over a wide spectrum of sports. Its war chest is full and they are ready to spend. You might say we are in it for the LONG HAUL. Enjoy.

Dear Santa,

All I want for Christmas is a Bone Yard thread that does not at some point have BC or BCU in it.

Your friend, John

 

[frankthetank]

Can you name a school in NCAA history that has met every criteria for competing at a certain level and getting forced down to a lower level against their will. I just don't see how Uconn is forced to a lower level without MAJOR pushback from Congress, Uconn, The State of CT, or the taxpayers of CT.

I get the requirements angle. But, you do realize Uconn is in the top 35-40 programs at roughly $70M annually. There will be very few requirements uconn doesn't meet that others from the other 'Power' conferences meet.

I'm not suggesting the split won't happen. I am saying that there are about 5-10 schools (uconn, Boise, cincy, USF, and maybe Navy) that will be included in the big boy league along with ND and BYU.

No one is going to get "forced down". The most likely scenario is that a new division will be created and the conferences that have all of its members qualify will be "brought up" to Super FBS (just as the Division I-A and I-AA split occurred).

 

[Fishy]

If they set a qualification, so to speak, that disqualifies schools from the AAC and MWC, then those schools are indeed being forced down.

 

[Dooley]

If this does go doen the P5 need to seriously reassess their own conferences. Do you need to bring Iowa St, Vandy, Wake, etc to the big leagues or do you boot them and fill with teams that bring more to the table in all or many sports. Let's be honest, there's a lot of dead weight in the P5 that could be swapped out with other schools. I find it /$#ing insane that these schools who bring nothing, athletically or market wise, get a free pass. Am I biased in thinking UConn brings more than Wake or Iowa St, hell yeah. But am I really off in thinking this??

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I've often thought along the same lines. There should be a NCAA draft. If one takes place, you can bet on UCONN being drafted over 1/3 of the current members of the Power 5.

 

[larryredbull]

If they set a qualification, so to speak, that disqualifies schools from the AAC and MWC, then those schools are indeed being forced down.

The same could be said of any school in the fcs and there is no lawsuit. Any fcs team is free to move up at any time. Now there will be another division which teams will be able to move up to provided they meet the qualifications. The qualifications will just cost more money now

 

[larryredbull]

Wishful thinking on your part, (funny how you had to slip B.C. in there LOL) a true hater. B.C. has an endowment that rivals any of the largest programs. Matter of fact they are opening the checkbook early this fall when they unveil their master plan for Athletics. Including building new facilities, and updating existing facilities, over a wide spectrum of sports. Its war chest is full and they are ready to spend. You might say we are in it for the LONG HAUL. Enjoy.

Endowments are usually used for academic purposes. Otherwise. , Harvard would be a major power in athletics. You guys may get people to donate money to build some facilities. Hell the Conte forum is waaaaay past it's prime so it's warranted. Your still going to need people to show up which you haven't been able to do well in the past.

 

[woomba]

If they set a qualification, so to speak, that disqualifies schools from the AAC and MWC, then those schools are indeed being forced down.

I don't think a reasonable metric can be crafted that includes the likes of Wake Forest, Iowa State, etc. without having the top 3-4 schools in the AAC & MWC meeting those criteria.

If something like this happens (where a criteria is set and conferences where all members qualify are bumped up) I think there are two possibilities :

• Another round of expansion where the fringe schools would be willing to take a 'junior member' role in the short term order for them palatable to a P5 conference and redo the contract terms later -
• The top member schools in the AAC / MWC / Ind. that meets the criteria merge to create a new conference.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Haveng read every post in this thread, but college sports is headed to a very bad place. Rivalries be damned, a lot of good ones have been terminated over this mad dash for the dollars. I wonder how long these large athletic departments can continue the cbarade of being non profit entities.

You may find this interesting with respect to ‘for-profit’ college sports

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20130722/grand-canyon-university-pac-12-protest/?sct=hp_t13_a3&eref=sihp

 

[DarthGrumpy]

One question, would the NCAA losing the O’Bannon lawsuit hamper or accelerate the P5 plus split from the NCAA?

 

[The Funster]

The best thing for UConn is if this new super division requires certain levels of financial commitment in order to be considered for membership. If that is the case and UConn (or any other school) meets those levels and is subsequently excluded then those schools could and would likely an antitrust lawsuit.

I'm sure the P5 schools know this and this is why the number 75 was bandied about. Does anyone think the new playoff system was not in response to the Utah AG's lawsuit and subsequent letter from the DOJ to the NCAA?

I think anyone who thinks a Power 5 super division would be safe from antitrust scrutiny is whistling past the graveyard.