The Big Five Conferences are going to break away

[tzznandrew]

Those schools in both football and basketball with their own network and cable subscriber numbers would have been ROLLING IN SERIOUS CASH!!!!!!!

Agreed. You throw Florida State, since they were a free agent until 1991, and that's a great all-sports league for UConn to join...

 

[FDNY99]

Agreed. You throw Florida State, since they were a free agent until 1991, and that's a great all-sports league for UConn to join...

Imagine the crying from the catholic schoo,s if that group walked in to a meeting and told the. they were breaking away and forming their own tv network. Add in UCONN, Louisville and Cincy..CASH COW!!! What could have been...what could have been!

 

[CL82]

Agreed. You throw Florida State, since they were a free agent until 1991, and that's a great all-sports league for UConn to join...

Ah but would we have gotten the chance to upgrade 1A in that league?

 

[SubbaBub]

Again...the what ifs...does football conference of:

Boston College
Maryland
Miami
Penn State
Pitt
Rutgers
Syracuse
Temple (They were in it, only reason I list them...)
Virginia Tech
West Virginia

ever get raided? Don't they get Florida State instead of the ACC?

Yes, Miami still looks around and PSU may have eventually jumped to the B1G anyway or jumped with Miami. History has shown that the BE schools were unable to maintain a viable FB league.

There is a chance having PSU in the league would have been enough for Miami to stay, but the $ to move would still be there, so I think CR still happens, but the names may have been different.

 

[tzznandrew]

Yes, Miami still looks around and PSU may have eventually jumped to the B1G anyway or jumped with Miami. History has shown that the BE schools were unable to maintain a viable FB league.

There is a chance having PSU in the league would have been enough for Miami to stay, but the $ to move would still be there, so I think CR still happens, but the names may have been different.

An ACC without Florida State is less appealing, no? Remember, at the stage we are speaking of, Florida State was an independent. I'd say there's a better than average chance that they come with Miami to this east coast conference.

Remember, accepting Penn State would have signalled that the Basketball Schools were on board with football. They were not, so its a moot point--but I'm taking that as my starting point. The SEC is not taking any of those schools, an ACC without Florida State is not taking any of those schools--only the B1G might (PSU, Maryland, Rutgers).

 

[billybud]

The BE blew it...turned down Penn State because of their basketball then took Miami (in spite of their BB) a few years later....

 

[SubbaBub]

An ACC without Florida State is less appealing, no? Remember, at the stage we are speaking of, Florida State was an independent. I'd say there's a better than average chance that they come with Miami to this east coast conference.

Remember, accepting Penn State would have signalled that the Basketball Schools were on board with football. They were not, so its a moot point--but I'm taking that as my starting point. The SEC is not taking any of those schools, an ACC without Florida State is not taking any of those schools--only the B1G might (PSU, Maryland, Rutgers).

FSU would have always joined the ACC, indies were a dying breed and neither the SEC or B12 would have had any interest at that time, so I think you have to assume at some later date that Miami would have looked at the ACC w/ FSU vs the BE w/ PSU, VT and make a decision. Maybe PSU goes with Miami and VT instead of BC.

I also doubt that FSU would have joined the BE because of the BB onlies, but if PSU, Miami, and VT were already there, it's at least a conversion that would have happened.

 

[Fishy]

If Penn State had joined the Big East, the landscape likely would have looked much different today.

I don't know that FSU joins, (highly doubtful, but not impossible), but it might have spelled trouble for the ACC.

The ACC never attacked the Big East from strength - their football conference was waning at the time of the first raid and their basketball conference was doing the same when they came for Syracuse and Pitt. With Penn State in the Big East, the perception of the league is different, the money is different and I don't think the ACC could have mounted a raid.

 

[billybud]

FSU would have always joined the ACC, indies were a dying breed and neither the SEC or B12 would have had any interest at that time, so I think you have to assume at some later date that Miami would have looked at the ACC w/ FSU vs the BE w/ PSU, VT and make a decision. Maybe PSU goes with Miami and VT instead of BC.

I also doubt that FSU would have joined the BE because of the BB onlies, but if PSU, Miami, and VT were already there, it's at least a conversion that would have happened.

Actually..the SEC had plenty of interest...FSU was talking to the SEC and the ACC. The SEC wanted FSU...so did the ACC.

At the time, the ACC actually payed out more then the SEC...basketball was a driver, not big football contracts.

An account of the 1991 move....

The SEC wasn't the only option. The Metro Conference was exploring the formation of a "super" conference, including the 'Noles in their plans for a 16-team league. The surprise player in the field was the ACC, led by commissioner Gene Corrigan, the former athletic director at Notre Dame, who sought to bolster the league's football stature.
It didn't take long for the committee to realize FSU had become a hot property in the escalating expansion race.
"At that time we thought we had arrived, when you have the SEC at your doorstep," Haggard said. "We had the ACC begging us and the SEC begging us."
At the annual ACC meetings on May 22 in Myrtle Beach, S.C., Florida State was mentioned for the first time. The discussions led Corrigan to schedule another meeting on July 25 at Sedgefield Country Club in Greensboro, N.C., in the exact room where the conference was formed in 1953.
Frustrated by the league's lack of focus on the expansion issue, Corrigan opted for a different approach at the Sedgefield meeting.
"I said, 'Let's make believe that we've agreed to expand. Each one of you has to write down a name of school,' " Corrigan recalled.
The secret ballot of member schools turned up four votes each for Syracuse and Florida State.
By the close of the four-hour meeting, Corrigan had permission from the ACC athletic directors to approach both schools to gauge interest. His first call was to Syracuse A.D. Jake Crouthamel. Crouthamel expressed interest, but because the Orangemen were charter members of the Big East, said the ACC would have to build a strong case. Corrigan, however, was not interested in wining and dining and told Crouthamel: "Just forget I called."
His call to Goin, however, yielded a different response.
"Bob said, 'Oh my goodness, I was hoping there was some interest [from] the ACC,'" Corrigan said.
Time and popular opinion, at least among FSU's decision-makers, were not on Goin's side and he expressed those concerns to Corrigan during the initial phone call.
Corrigan said that Goin had informed him that talks with Kramer and SEC officials were moving swiftly.
"He [Goin] said, 'We don't have much time,' " said Corrigan, who arranged an Aug. 17 meeting with Sliger and Goin before a group of ACC faculty representatives at the league's offices in Greensboro.
"They were very impressive," Corrigan said of FSU's presentation. "I thought we might get a unanimous vote."
It did not take much to convince Corrigan that the addition of FSU would have a profound impact on the league. Not only would the Seminoles' football program lend credibility to the ACC, but the prospect of tapping into Florida's vast media market was particularly enticing.
Needing six affirmative votes for expansion -- and fully aware that Duke and Maryland were opposed -- Corrigan immediately set out on a whirlwind personal tour in an attempt to sell the league's university presidents.
Sliger and Goin returned to Tallahassee equally impressed, but facing an equally daunting charge -- altering the minds of those who wanted FSU to join the SEC.
Selling the idea
Corrigan had a gut feeling that the face-to-face meeting between Sliger, Goin and ACC representatives had gone well.
"I think our people really liked Bernie," Corrigan said. "The funny thing about Bernie was he really wanted to go into the SEC, but he let other people make that decision."
And that probably was greatest reason for Corrigan's optimism. Goin, FSU's first-year A.D., was the point-man in the school's search for conference affiliation.
"Bob Goin and Gene Corrigan clicked immediately," said former FSU sports information director Wayne Hogan, a Goin confidant throughout the process. "They formed a very tight and lasting relationship right from the beginning."
Goin, however, didn't allow any perceived bias to prevent him from a thorough examination of the two leagues. Armed with comparative charts on subjects as diverse as average SAT scores of incoming freshmen, travel distances between FSU and the two league's schools and projected revenues from football attendance, television contracts and bowl receipts, Goin presented his case.
"My job was to do the pros and the cons and I did that," Goin said. "I shared it with a number of contstituencies there and after a time it started unfolding."
Not surprisingly, in the ACC's favor.
Wake Forest University President Thomas Hearn, who represented the ACC on the NCAA President's Commission, said Sliger's strong stance on academic reform put to rest any questions about FSU's off-field accountability. Sliger was also a member of the President's Commission.
"Bernie had already earned his stars," Hearn said. "No one had any doubt about the integrity of Florida State's commitment to academics."
Since its 1953 inception the ACC had made only one move in terms of membership, and that was replacing charter member South Carolina, which resigned in 1971, with Georgia Tech in 1978. Coincidentally, Georgia Tech had withdrawn from the SEC in 1964, while South Carolina ended 19 years of independence by joining the SEC in 1990.
Corrigan's greatest challenge wasn't selling the league on FSU, but on expansion in general. The eight schools had grown comfortable with their place in the NCAA hierarchy, their philosophies regarding academics and athletics and their revenue-sharing plan that offered the same financial benefits -- much of which came from its lucrative basketball television contract -- to all of its members.
Decision time
While conference affiliation would impact FSU's entire athletic program, suggesting that football was anything less than a major factor in expansion talk would be naive. So while Bowden was not directly involved in the decision, his support was critical in the process.
Not surprisingly, the Birmingham born-and-raised Seminoles coach -- who spent one year as a quarterback at Alabama -- said the SEC was "emotionally" his first choice. Even so, he carefully weighed all options.
"I was probably involved just about as much as anybody in that I agreed to [the ACC]," Bowden said. "I think if I would have wanted to fight for the SEC it might have caused some concerns for everybody, but I didn't feel that way.
"When you started looking at it from a financial perspective and what's best for us, I felt pretty sure what we should do is go ahead and join the ACC. ... Bob [Goin] had it laid out pretty good. I'll be honest with you, it was a no-brainer."
Haggard, like many on the advisory committee, valued Bowden's view on the choice of conference.
"Bobby was totally SEC when it started," Haggard said. "As Bobby's thinking changed, our thinking changed. It ended up unanimous ACC."
By the time a contingent of ACC school and league officials made their Sept. 2 tour of FSU's campus, the league had already made substantial gains on the SEC's initial foothold. Finances, football and basketball prowess aside, the ACC's overall image -- specifically its academic reputation -- had left a strong impression.
"More people here wanted the ACC; that's what really changed me," Sliger said. "The faculty really wanted the ACC. There were very few [faculty members] that had gone to the SEC, but many of them had gone to North Carolina and Virginia, places like that."
While the ACC and FSU continued to discover common ground through the search process, the SEC was losing ground. In early August, athletic directors Joe Dean of LSU and Hootie Ingram, who was at Alabama after nine years with FSU, publicly proclaimed the Seminoles would join the SEC. Time, however, was no longer on the SEC's side and Kramer's timing made it even worse.
Kramer and top aide Mark Womack made their official visit and presentation in Tallahassee on Sept. 11, perhaps not coincidentally, the same day that Corrigan arranged a conference call with the ACC's university presidents to make his final presentation for expansion and Florida State.
Hogan vividly remembers the SEC presentation before the entire FSU athletic department.
"That very day, when Bob Goin and Roy Kramer sat in the room there was very much a different dynamic," Hogan said. "It was very stiff and very cold. ....
"The SEC in those days was certainly the 3,000-pound gorilla. They kept putting out vibes, 'How could you not want to play with us? We've already got a great deal going; wouldn't you want to jump on our train?' "
Whether real or merely perceived, the vibes generated from the SEC's presentation didn't sit well with some at FSU.
"There was quite a bit of feeling that we didn't want to be entrapped; a feeling among some of the fans that if we go into that conference that has been dominated by the Alabamas, Auburns and Georgias we'd be kind of a stepchild," Miller said. "[That] we wouldn't get the respect we deserved."
While Kramer emerged from the five-hour long meeting with FSU officials, declining comment on the school's possible membership, Corrigan forged ahead. His conference call with the presidents went so well that he set a conference call vote on expansion for 9:30 the following morning.
The aftermath
Corrigan woke up on Sept. 12, 1990 certain he had the six votes necessary to move ahead and expand. Duke and Maryland, he knew, would cast the only no votes. He was even more certain that if the league agreed on expansion, adding Florida State would be nothing more than a formality.
In a matter of minutes, Corrigan saw all the hard work on the delicate issue come apart. Clemson, Georgia Tech and Virginia, the strongest supporters on the issue and FSU all along, voted for expansion. Duke and Maryland voted against, but to Corrigan's surprise, North Carolina, North Carolina State and Wake Forest abstained; the equivalent of three no votes.
Expansion was suddenly dead.
"Corrigan was just about in tears when the vote was over," said Tom Mickle, Corrigan's top aide.
"All of a sudden we've got these abstentions," Corrigan recalled. "I've got the athletic directors on another line waiting. ... A couple of them went ballistic."
The resounding voice of the AD's was: "That's not the way we thought we were voting."
Corrigan could have let the issue die, but after conferring with the athletic directors, agreed to have a second vote at 7 p.m., after the abstaining parties had the opportunity to hammer out final questions.
Meanwhile, the SEC had caught wind of the ACC's intention to hold an expansion vote and quickly convened its own conference call. They voted to not extend Florida State an invitation to the conference.
Goin and the Seminoles were in limbo.
As the second vote was taking place Goin was on a plane to an in-state function, kept abreast of the proceedings via cell phone from Hogan, who was in constant communication with Corrigan and Mickle.
At the same time Goin said he was, "dodging Kramer's call because I didn't want him to tell me he didn't want me."
"That was some tense times," Hogan said. "Had that vote not gone our way, we were screwed."
"There was anxiety, but at the same token, I was representing a pretty good university," Goin said . "If you're not carrying a very strong deck, I would have had more anxiety. I don't think we would have been in the open market very long."
It didn't matter. The re-vote went 6-2 in favor of expansion and 8-0 in favor of the Seminoles. FSU had a new home.
Corrigan extended FSU its formal invitation the following day -- Sept. 13 -- and FSU accepted without hestitation.
Kramer said he has no hard feelings about Florida State's maneuvering. Asked if, in the end, he felt Florida State had played the SEC's offer against the ACC's, Kramer said:
"Officially, no. I had known Bernie [Sliger] forever and considered him a friend. I dealt with him and he was very up front. I never felt we were being used.''
"With every fiber in my being I thought it was the right thing at that time for Florida State," Goin said. "That program at that time fit better with the ACC than any. I don't know, they may not make that same decision today as they did 10 years ago."
Goin was never fully able to enjoy the fruits of his effort. He was forced out of his post in 1994 in the wake of allegations that he curried financial favor from a contractor that was working on Doak Campbell Stadium; a charge that he was later cleared of.
In hindsight, Swofford believes the league has benefited greater from FSU's addition than any of the other conferences which branched out, or cropped up like the Big 12, as a result of the expansion rush.
"I think definitely we have," said Swofford, in his fouth year as commissioner. "It's an excellent fit. Of any people that would have been available at that point in time, Florida State was the ideal choice for our league. If we had to do it all over again, Florida State is exactly who we would want to have."

​

 

[Fishy]

The irony with Florida State is that they pursued the SEC for years for an invitation and were constantly turned away.

When the SEC decided to invite them, Florida State turned them away.

And now, we're back to full circle with Florida State wishing for another invitation.

 

[billybud]

The irony with Florida State is that they pursued the SEC for years for an invitation and were constantly turned away.

When the SEC decided to invite them, Florida State turned them away.

And now, we're back to full circle with Florida State wishing for another invitation.

Then, as now, there are two Florida States...the football guys, fans, boosters...and the President and his academic staff at the university.

The President and the academic side of FSU are very pro ACC...as the President noted back in 1991, many of the FSU staff matriculated out of ACC programs and few from the SEC.

 

[Fishy]

If the SEC faxed over an invite to FSU earlier this year, FSU would have accepted before the ink dried.

You know that.

 

[Adios]

Taking sociological and economic trends into consideration, I keep thinking the SEC's turf is in deeper than the ACC's turf.

 

[billybud]

If the SEC faxed over an invite to FSU earlier this year, FSU would have accepted before the ink dried.

You know that.

I said as much. The President would not do it voluntarilry..but the boosters would force the issue.

President Barron's infamous email to boosters in 2012:

I want to assure you that any decision made about FSU athletics will be reasoned and thoughtful and based on athletics, finances and academics. Allow me to provide you with some of the issues we are facing:
In support of a move are four basic factors argued by many alumni:

1. The ACC is more basketball than it is football, and many of our alumni view us as more football oriented than the ACC
2. The ACC is too North Carolina centric and the contract advantages basketball and hence advantages the North Carolina schools
3. The Big 12 has some big football schools that match up with FSU
4. The Big 12 contract (which actually isn't signed yet) is rumored to be $2.9M more per year than the ACC contract. We need this money to be competitive.
But, in contrast:

1. The information presented about the ACC contract that initiated the blogosphere discussion was not correct. The ACC is an equal share conference and this applies to football and to basketball there is no preferential treatment of any university with the exception of 3rd tier rights for women's basketball and Olympic sports. FSU is advantaged by that aspect of the contract over the majority of other ACC schools.
2. Colorado, Missouri, Nebraska and Texas A&M left the Big 12, at least in part because the Big 12 is not an equal share conference. Texas has considerably more resource avenues and gains a larger share (and I say this as a former dean of the University of Texas at Austin - I watched the Big 12 disintegration with interest). So, when fans realize that Texas would get more dollars than FSU, always having a competitive advantage, it would be interesting to see the fan reaction.
3. Much is being made of the extra $2.9M that the Big 12 contract (which hasn't been inked yet) gets over the ACC contract. Given that the Texas schools are expected to play each other (the Big 12 is at least as Texas centered than the ACC is North Carolina centered), the most likely scenario has FSU playing Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State, and West Virginia on a recurring basis and the other teams sporadically (and one more unnamed team has to join to allow the Big 12 to regain a championship game), we realize that our sports teams can no longer travel by bus to most games the estimate is that the travel by plane required by FSU to be in the Big 12 appears to exceed the $2.9M difference in the contract actually giving us fewer dollars than we have now to be competitive with the Big 12 teams, who obviously do not have to travel as far. Any renegotiated amount depends not just on FSU but the caliber of any other new team to the Big 12.
4. Few believe that the above teams will fill our stadium with fans of these teams and so our lack of sales and ticket revenue would continue.
5. We would lose the rivalry with the University of Miami that does fill our stadium
6. It will cost between $20M and $25M to leave the ACC we have no idea where that money would come from. It would have to come from the Boosters which currently are unable to support our current University athletic budget, hence the 2% cut in that budget.
7. The faculty are adamantly opposed to joining a league that is academically weaker and in fact, many of them resent the fact that a 2% ($2.4M) deficit in the athletics budget receives so much attention from concerned Seminoles, but the loss of 25% of the academic budget (105M) gets none when it is the most critical concern of this University in terms of its successful future.
I present these issues to you so that you realize that this is not so simple (not to mention that negotiations aren't even taking place). One of the few wise comments made in the blogosphere is that no one negotiates their future in the media. We can't afford to have conference affiliation be governed by emotion it has to be based on a careful assessment of athletics, finances and academics. I assure you that every aspect of conference affiliation will be looked at by this institution, but it must be a reasoned decision.
Eric Barron,
President

 

[billybud]

" The faculty are adamantly opposed to joining a league that is academically weaker and in fact, many of them resent the fact that a 2% ($2.4M) deficit in the athletics budget receives so much attention from concerned Seminoles, but the loss of 25% of the academic budget (105M) gets none when it is the most critical concern of this University in terms of its successful future."

 

[CL82]

Yes, Miami still looks around and PSU may have eventually jumped to the B1G anyway or jumped with Miami. History has shown that the BE schools were unable to maintain a viable FB league.

There is a chance having PSU in the league would have been enough for Miami to stay, but the $ to move would still be there, so I think CR still happens, but the names may have been different.

Maybe not. Remember that the timing of TV contracts is what made us the lowest paid league at first. It snowballed form there. So, if we get PSU, we get a new contract and the timing changes. Maybe we survive.