The actual NCAA penalties for PSU

[brasssbonanzaa]

$13MM for all 4 years. A little different than $13MM annually. And it is an estimate, so we don't know what percentage would have actually been earned by Penn State based on their membership in the Big 10 versus earned through appearances in actual bowls.

I misread it as $13 M per year, but still not insignificant, and this is revenue lost in addition to any bowl revenue they would've otherwise received from being in another bowl, and it remains to be seen whether they'll have to pay back bowl revenue going back to 1998.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I don't want to keep the pissing match going. I think we can both agree that the media is making the penalties out to be much worse than they are.

This is no where near the death penalty. The death penalty would DESTROY a program, because all the players would leave, so Penn State would be starting completely from scratch. That is very different than not offering a few marginal prospects for the next 4 years to stay within scholarship restrictions.

 

[FAIRTIDES]

I'm going to agree with nelson here. PSU recruits will offer to walk-on and pay their own way in order to show their love and support for Joe Pa and the university. They will be lining up for O'Brien's camps just like they were lining up to get their last pic of the statue.

I could easily see these headlines: "Top Big 33 QB foregoes scholarship to Pitt to walk-on at PSU"

I guess we'll tally the prediction results in 10 years ...

I respectfully disagree. Unlike Nelson, I don't think "Penn State is still Penn State;" at least to those outside Pennsylvania. Parents are going to have a say in the college decision, and many will not wish to pay the highest public school tuition in the country for a tainted institution.

 

[Waquoit]

Ok, but you were the first one to mention FBS coaches.

The word got out. The last graphic I saw on ESPN changed FBS to D-1 and added Eddie Robinson.

 

[Deadrody]

Seriously, anyone who thinks Penn State got off lightly is just looking at the penalties and not realizing their long term impacts on Penn State athletics. (Aside: Don't worry...most American's don't think ahead about the long term). Football accounts for nearly 70% of the athletic department revenue. About 30% of the revenue comes from sponsorships and endorsements. I have no doubt these penalties will financially ruin the athletic department and force programs to be cut.

In addition, the scandal has already had its toll on alumni giving and applications. Penn State is royally ducked. Sure...take away more scholarships. It'd only be a drop in the ocean of financial ruin Penn State has just delivered itself.

Yeah, great. Nothing says "justice" for victims like cutting the women's track team.

 

[NHUConnfan]

There are not many schools like UC-SD out there. Hard to believe their endowment is larger than ours.

For a side note, UConn's endowment is appauling for a school our size and I'm glad that Herbst has made it a #1 priority.

I don't invent realities. You are listing the forfeiture of future bowl revenue as a penalty. My point is that Penn State does not have a right to that revenue. Appearing in bowls is a privilege for programs that succeed while playing ethically. I view Penn State's punishment as an opportunity for Purdue or Indiana.

The rest of your post is a personal attack on me. Not sure what the problem is.

Have you forgotten that the B10 combines its bowl money and shares it with all of the schools, bowl or not?

I don't want to keep the pissing match going. I think we can both agree that the media is making the penalties out to be much worse than they are.

This is no where near the death penalty. The death penalty would DESTROY a program, because all the players would leave, so Penn State would be starting completely from scratch. That is very different than not offering a few marginal prospects for the next 4 years to stay within scholarship restrictions.

Unless someone's time traveled to the future, there is no way to tell if these penalties have destroyed the program or not. First, people are assuming that Penn State football will rebound almost immediately. This is all hinging on the fact that O'Brien does well as a HC, but if he struggles, it's not like PSU will be able to replace him immediately with these financial penalties that will hurt for years to come. You're also assuming that PSU will continue to get the same types of recruits year in and year out which I think is far from certain.

If PSU is not able to recover within 10 years, they could just as well permanently damage their reputation as a football school. I mean, do you remember when SMU was a top football school? I bet you right up to the death penalty of SMU a lot of students would have loved to play for them. Now, they have trouble getting a really good recruit. If Penn State can't rebound in 10 years, that's 10 years of future football players that never experienced PSU football as it was for the past 30 years. It may just not be that appealing anymore at that point.

I'm just playing devil's advocate. I'm not sure if that's going to happen or not. No one does, so get off your high horse about how you know that PSU is better off with this penalty than the death penalty.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I do agree that I'm not sure that this is "worse" than the death penalty. This strikes me as different, as it doesn't create as much collateral damage as the death penalty would have. The businesses in State College who rely on PSU football to survive won't be shut down, the other programs in the athletic department that run off of football-generated revenue won't be affected as much, and both of those aren't a bad thing, though it does bring up "too big to fail" concerns.

That said, it still cripples the program, and in many ways, PSU will have their own "death penalty" to deal with, as they're going to have enormous trouble recruiting, scheduling games, etc. far beyond this four year period since few are going to want to be associating themselves with the program.

Agreed. I would gladly string Sandusky up from a lightpole for his crimes, but the death penalty would hurt many people who did nothing wrong. All the current players and even students for starters. Even this imposes massive collateral damage on the non-football athletics at the school, as I'm not sure how PSU funds them. Sadly, Joe P is dead and Jerry Sandusky is already headed to prison. The punishments can't target those they need to.

 

[NHUConnfan]

Yeah, great. Nothing says "justice" for victims like cutting the women's track team.

I'm not saying that it is...just trying to put it in perspective. Penn State is royally ducked if you ask me.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Yeah, great. Nothing says "justice" for victims like cutting the women's track team.

Why punish any school at all for anything?

 

[NHUConnfan]

Why punish any school at all for anything?

Time for your nap Waylon...you're getting cranky.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Time for your nap Waylon...you're getting cranky.

The point is, of course innocents will feel pain when an institution is punished. That does not mean we should not punish institutions.

 

[HuskyHawk]

If they make PSU return bowl revenues going back to 1998, that's a huge penalty. Other than that, it's a shot at Paterno, and a way to knock him off as the all-time wins leader.

How can they? What legal right does the NCAA or the B1G have to ask for that money back? None. They don't have any claim to the $60M either, except via a threat to remove Penn St. from NCAA membership. That would be a dicey proposition if they tried it by the way, since there's not a university in the land that doesn't have some baggage. UConn used to have a high rate of rapes on campus (dark, quiet, insufficient lighting, no call boxes). UConn was pretty obviously negligent in that regard during my time, and only addressed it much later.

I think the NCAA and B1G pushed this about as far as they could without having PSU push back. This is a state institution, and has a plausible claim to sovereign immunity.

 

[HuskyHawk]

The point is, of course innocents will feel pain when an institution is punished. That does not mean we should not punish institutions.

No, but it does mean that you exercise maximum discretion in applying the punishment and minimize the damage to those who did nothing wrong. Which, by the way, includes not just the current team, but probably every player on every Penn St. football team. Many of whom were proud of their very real accomplishments that have now been tarnished.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

No, but it does mean that you exercise maximum discretion in applying the punishment and minimize the damage to those who did nothing wrong. Which, by the way, includes not just the current team, but probably every player on every Penn St. football team. Many of whom were proud of their very real accomplishments that have now been tarnished.

Former players aren't going to be a concern when assessing a penalty, because they're not going to experience any direct effect of that penalty. Current players, had the 12-13 season been nixed, would have been severely negatively affected by it, since they wouldn't have been able to transfer and would be forced not to play for a year. That's not acceptable collateral damage.

 

[SubbaBub]

Still, this made me laugh.

NOT SportsCenter, satirical website: Penn State now has 0 wins since 1998, a 4 year bowl ban, 20 fewer scholarships/year next 4 years. The NCAA just turned #PSU into Notre Dame.

 

[Jimdish255]

I still tbink they have 10 fewer schollys each year wbich leaves them a maximum of 60 in year 4. That's. Before transfers injuries or eligibility issues. If they have to get down to 60 in year 1 and graduations plus 15 recruits doesnt get them there, do they need transfers to aviod pulling schollys? Or am I just obsessing?

 

[BlueMAB]

Pot meet kettle.

You obviously missed my apology and explanation. Shocking.

That's my bad. I didn't mean to use the quotes to imply I was quoting you, I meant to use the quotes to say you were implying you expected him to be replaced. Whether you'll admit it or not, your tone and posts clearly imply that you don't expect him to be the starter by the end of the year, and not due to injury. I failed to get that across, and that was my mistake, so I apologize.

That said, you are childish, you were deflecting, and you were playing the victim for no reason. Grow up.

 

[BlueMAB]

The word got out. The last graphic I saw on ESPN changed FBS to D-1 and added Eddie Robinson.

Ok, my bad. I didn't have ESPN on, I was just referring to the posts in the thread.

 

[NHUConnfan]

The point is, of course innocents will feel pain when an institution is punished. That does not mean we should not punish institutions.

Innocent people get punished all of the time. When someone's murdered, the victim's family is punished for the rest of their life.

 

[BlueMAB]

The point is, of course innocents will feel pain when an institution is punished. That does not mean we should not punish institutions.

Indirect collateral damage is inevitable. That's not what you propose. You propose intentionally punishing not only innocent people, but people who aren't even associated with the football program. Intentionally and directly punishing the baseball team for the transgressions of the football program, AD, and president is a joke.

If your logic held, you would keep our women's team out of the NCAA tournament this year because they play the same sport, on the same courts as the men team. It's not enough to punish the innocent players on the current team, let's go after other teams to make sure academics are taken seriously, right?

And once again, NOBODY, has said let's not punish the institution. Do us all a favor and just change your handle to "StrawmanMuntz". That way whenever someone new joins the board they'll already know what to expect.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

Indirect collateral damage is inevitable. That's not what you propose. You propose intentionally punishing not only innocent people, but people who aren't even associated with the football program. Intentionally and directly punishing the baseball team for the transgressions of the football program, AD, and president is a Fecunditying joke.

If your logic held, you would keep our women's team out of the NCAA tournament this year because they play the same sport, on the same courts as the men team. It's not enough to punish the innocent players on the current team, let's go after other teams to make sure academics are taken seriously, right?

And once again, NOBODY, has said let's not punish the institution. Do us all a favor and just change your handle to "StrawmanMuntz". That way whenever someone new joins the board they'll already know what to expect.

This. The penalties issued today were just about the best way to punish the university with the fewest possible innocent bystanders affected while still sending a strong message. How Waylon can say the program will be back up at the top of the B1G 2-3 years after the four year period is absolutely beyond me.

Be careful, you'll now be a PSU fan and apologist and will defend what PSU did.

 

[BlueMAB]

This. The penalties issued today were just about the best way to punish the university with the fewest possible innocent bystanders affected while still sending a strong message. How Waylon can say the program will be back up at the top of the B1G 2-3 years after the four year period is absolutely beyond me.

Be careful, you'll now be a PSU fan and apologist and will defend what PSU did.

Too late. He already claimed I didn't want PSU punished because I had the audacity to question how innocent athletes losing scholarship opportunities provides justice to the victims.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Indirect collateral damage is inevitable. That's not what you propose. You propose intentionally punishing not only innocent people, but people who aren't even associated with the football program. Intentionally and directly punishing the baseball team for the transgressions of the football program, AD, and president is a Fecunditying joke.

If your logic held, you would keep our women's team out of the NCAA tournament this year because they play the same sport, on the same courts as the men team. It's not enough to punish the innocent players on the current team, let's go after other teams to make sure academics are taken seriously, right?

And once again, NOBODY, has said let's not punish the institution. Do us all a favor and just change your handle to "StrawmanMuntz". That way whenever someone new joins the board they'll already know what to expect.

It isn't a strawman when I am repeating what you said. Proposing some outrageous financial penalty on the school also punishes innocents, doesn't it? Any punishment of any part of Penn State will impact innocents, wont it? So that ship has pretty much sailed, unless you don't want to punish the institution.

I am getting worn out pointing out the obvious flaws in your logic. Moving on.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

This. The penalties issued today were just about the best way to punish the university with the fewest possible innocent bystanders affected while still sending a strong message. How Waylon can say the program will be back up at the top of the B1G 2-3 years after the four year period is absolutely beyond me.

Be careful, you'll now be a PSU fan and apologist and will defend what PSU did.

The NCAA should have just said it didn't have jurisdiction and moved on. Penalties today were a joke.

 

[businesslawyer]

How can they? What legal right does the NCAA or the B1G have to ask for that money back? None. They don't have any claim to the $60M either, except via a threat to remove Penn St. from NCAA membership. That would be a dicey proposition if they tried it by the way, since there's not a university in the land that doesn't have some baggage. UConn used to have a high rate of rapes on campus (dark, quiet, insufficient lighting, no call boxes). UConn was pretty obviously negligent in that regard during my time, and only addressed it much later.

I think the NCAA and B1G pushed this about as far as they could without having PSU push back. This is a state institution, and has a plausible claim to sovereign immunity.

Huh? Sovereign immunity would allow you to be an NCAA member over the NCAA's objections?

I wonder why Obama didn't teach that in his Con Law courses.

 

[Dann]

word is breaking that PSU has called Obama and is asking for a bailout to help with the fine the ncaa handed down.

 

[businesslawyer]

This. The penalties issued today were just about the best way to punish the university with the fewest possible innocent bystanders affected while still sending a strong message. How Waylon can say the program will be back up at the top of the B1G 2-3 years after the four year period is absolutely beyond me.

Be careful, you'll now be a PSU fan and apologist and will defend what PSU did.

Well, if I'm now a Syracuse apologist because the PSU situation was different, why shouldn't he be a PSU apologist.

 

[BlueMAB]

It isn't a strawman when I am repeating what you said. Proposing some outrageous financial penalty on the school also punishes innocents, doesn't it? Any punishment of any part of Penn State will impact innocents, wont it? So that ship has pretty much sailed, unless you don't want to punish the institution.

I am getting worn out pointing out the obvious flaws in your logic. Moving on.

I've changed my mind. You aren't pretending, you really are a moron.

I say this because it's not difficult to understand the difference between direct punishment and indirect punishment. Any major fine imposed on the school will eventually negatively impact anyone who attends the school. That's inevitable and unavoidable. It's pretty easy to avoid banning the hockey team from having a season. You just have to let them play. I can live with the loss of scholarships. I'm surprised it wasn't more. I can't understand what type of idiot thinks athletes that aren't even associated with the football program shouldn't be allowed to play. It's so moronic it nauseating.

Again, using your logic, we could take it further and say that all UConn athletic programs should be banned from post season play due to the men's APR scores. Because the innocent will suffer anyway, so why not. It's insulting to the intellgince of a field mouse to make the argument you're making. I'll start caring what you think about my logic when Paterno steps out of the grave and wins another 100+ games.

 

[spsct]

I would say that the NCAA got it about as right as you could. IMO the only innocent bystanders who may get hurt in all of this are the upperclassmen on the football team.

As for them hitting the ground running in 5-6 years, I will be shocked if that happened; I think comparing their situation with that of USC doesn't work.

• If I am correct, the bowl ban at PSU is double that as USC (although I don't know the scholarship reduction comparison).
• USC was and is the shark in the pond over on the west coast; it was USC and then everybody else (but Oregon is making inroads now). PSU is arguably #4 in the pecking order in their own conference. And their recruiting in the Northeast will take a big hit at the worst time possible because of UConn and Rutgers becoming higher profile and other smaller programs perhaps making greater strides.
• USC got nailed for improper benefits. PSU got it for covering up child rape. If I were a self-respecting kid, I would think 2,3,4 times about that before going there. It's a stigma.

Taking the wins since 1998 was just about the only way they could punish Paterno in this hot mess, as if his legacy wasn't tarnished enough (at least for people outside of Happy Valley).

The money is a bit rough, getting fined and losing income. I don't know enough about where the money will come from, so I won't comment on that.

For me the final justice would be seeing a bunch of players leave PSU for someplace like Indiana or Northwestern and watch them curb-stomp PSU for the next 4 years.

 

[Kgun7]

I respectfully disagree. Unlike Nelson, I don't think "Penn State is still Penn State;" at least to those outside Pennsylvania. Parents are going to have a say in the college decision, and many will not wish to pay the highest public school tuition in the country for a tainted institution.

Fair enough. We can revisit this in 10 years and declare the winner - a Ten Penny Ale draft under the scoreboard at halftime at the Rent in 2022.

I won't under estimate the cult mentality of that university anymore ... I've been proven wrong too many times. Did you think kids would line up to get their picture taken in front of Joe Pa's statue? Did you think grown men would cry when Joe Pa's statue came down? How many more former players are going to use the words ... "all because of the actions of one man" ...

As sad as it is to say ... I personally think Penn State has the ability, and will to rebound from this.