Tennessee Recruiting Post-Holly (when it happens) | The Boneyard

Tennessee Recruiting Post-Holly (when it happens)

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The sense on VolNation is that "Tennessee recruits itself" and that any coach coming in will automatically get great recruits. I, myself, am not so convinced of that. Yes, Tenn was a storied program but just 3 and 4 years ago (2015/2016 Classes), Holly had back to back years of poor recruiting. Then she stepped it up with two strong classes in 2017/18.

For all of Holly's deficiencies (too many here to list), I do think her "Lady Vol for Life" that bleeds Orange is a huge selling point she leverages. I am not saying a new coach can't also point to the history and the sport commitment by the school but unless it's another former Lady Vol, the new coach will not have been a part of it's history to speak with any true passion on attaining those results.

Our own future rests on this notion as well, will UConn be able recruit at an elite level due to it's history once Geno/CD retire? Does it depend on having someone with strong ties to program to have it continue?

In Men's programs, due to a longer history of the sport in the NCAA's, having a coach with ties to it's legacy is not nearly as important as having "coaching acumen". Just look at Kentucky and all the coaches that succeeded Rupp/Hall that did not have any KY history-Pitino, Tubby Smith, Calipari. Only NCheat has kept it's program legacy intact since Dean Smith retired with Doherty/Roy Williams.

Are the WCBB programs different due to their shortened history of 36 years? UConn 11, Tenn 8, Baylor 2, ND 2 account for 23 of the 36 titles. I would contend that probably a link is essential. What are my fine colleagues thoughts?
 
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Interesting questions Defense. I think if TN gets a proven coach, who can turn things around, they will continue to recruit well. Sharonna Reeves was hired as head recruiter after the really bad recruiting year. Possibly the new coach would be wise to keep her on staff. One thing is for sure - we shall see.
 

Gus Mahler

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The sense on VolNation is that "Tennessee recruits itself" and that any coach coming in will automatically get great recruits. I, myself, am not so convinced of that. Yes, Tenn was a storied program but just 3 and 4 years ago (2015/2016 Classes), Holly had back to back years of poor recruiting. Then she stepped it up with two strong classes in 2017/18.

For all of Holly's deficiencies (too many here to list), I do think her "Lady Vol for Life" that bleeds Orange is a huge selling point she leverages. I am not saying a new coach can't also point to the history and the sport commitment by the school but unless it's another former Lady Vol, the new coach will not have been a part of it's history to speak with any true passion on attaining those results.

Our own future rests on this notion as well, will UConn be able recruit at an elite level due to it's history once Geno/CD retire? Does it depend on having someone with strong ties to program to have it continue?

In Men's programs, due to a longer history of the sport in the NCAA's, having a coach with ties to it's legacy is not nearly as important as having "coaching acumen". Just look at Kentucky and all the coaches that succeeded Rupp/Hall that did not have any KY history-Pitino, Tubby Smith, Calipari. Only NCheat has kept it's program legacy intact since Dean Smith retired with Doherty/Roy Williams.

Are the WCBB programs different due to their shortened history of 36 years? UConn 11, Tenn 8, Baylor 2, ND 2 account for 23 of the 36 titles. I would contend that probably a link is essential. What are my fine colleagues thoughts?
One thought is that Tara also has two championships. Another is that UConn and Tenn combine for more than half the titles.

Unless the conference situation changes, I fear the worst for UConn long-term. Of Geno's coaching tree, only Berube has had great success. But that's at DIII, and UConn is DI+++. It will be interesting to see how Marisa fares longer-term at BU.
 
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Eventually, TN won't recruit itself. I'm sure it did when Holly first took over, but, the further we get away from the TN glory days, the less the players coming up will remember TN as a powerhouse. That's usually what happens when these dynasties fall.

Some at Vol Nation seem to think that they can get "any coach except Geno." They will find that's not true. Even the newer established coaches like Vic, Wes Moore, Graves, ect. will not be so quick to take on a rebuild where they have to come in and change the culture. You don't really see head coaches at top programs jumping to another head coaching job. When they build these programs up, they tend to stay there.

Additionally, some people just don't want the pressure of that job. Coming in and living in Pat Summit's shadow. A lot of people aren't going to want to do that. I think they will find it's not the destination job they think it is and will have to accept an up and coming young coach or an assistant from a top program. They will have to look beyond winning the press conference and making the flashy hire.
 

nwhoopfan

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Eventually, TN won't recruit itself. I'm sure it did when Holly first took over, but, the further we get away from the TN glory days, the less the players coming up will remember TN as a powerhouse.

That should already be the case. They haven't been to the Final 4 since 2008. That's an eternity for kids growing up. Haven't won the SEC regular season since 2015. What have they done since Warlick has been coaching that is drawing talented players there?
 

nwhoopfan

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Only NCheat has kept it's program legacy intact since Dean Smith retired with Doherty/Roy Williams.

Also Guthridge was promoted to head coach before Doherty. But the combined Gut/Doherty years were kind of a disaster. Roy had to come back home to "rescue" UNC.
 
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That should already be the case. They haven't been to the Final 4 since 2008. That's an eternity for kids growing up. Haven't won the SEC regular season since 2015. What have they done since Warlick has been coaching that is drawing talented players there?

I think she's been to the Elite 8 twice if I remember correctly.
 
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I do think the history of the programs success does play a role but it depends on who the coach is and what the program has done lately.

I think Tennessee can continue to attract the elite of the elite post holly, with the right coach. That said, the road Tennessee is going down right now, I am not very sure how much longer the program will be able to sell itself. The pat legacy and the prestige of what that program once was was very shinny at the beginning years when Holly took over. A lot of kids grew up watching Tennessee the powerhouse it was. They are getting very far removed from what that program once was. They were lucky to get in the tournament this year.

I personally don't think you need to have someone with strong ties to the program to continue to have success. That said, replacing these legendary coaches is usually difficult. Tough to follow these coaches and meet these crazy expectations that they created. When Geno eventually steps down, it will be interesting. I am not saying the new coach won't or be successful, but I seriously doubt they will live up to what Geno has done his career at UCONN.
 
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Interesting questions Defense. I think if TN gets a proven coach, who can turn things around, they will continue to recruit well. Sharonna Reeves was hired as head recruiter after the really bad recruiting year. Possibly the new coach would be wise to keep her on staff. One thing is for sure - we shall see.
Thanks Magy- do you think Tenn would go outside the Pat tree or even (Volnation forbid!) hire a man to lead the program? I am really perplexed on what direction this could take. :confused:
 

DefenseBB

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Eventually, TN won't recruit itself. I'm sure it did when Holly first took over, but, the further we get away from the TN glory days, the less the players coming up will remember TN as a powerhouse. That's usually what happens when these dynasties fall.

Some at Vol Nation seem to think that they can get "any coach except Geno." They will find that's not true. Even the newer established coaches like Vic, Wes Moore, Graves, ect. will not be so quick to take on a rebuild where they have to come in and change the culture. You don't really see head coaches at top programs jumping to another head coaching job. When they build these programs up, they tend to stay there.

Additionally, some people just don't want the pressure of that job. Coming in and living in Pat Summit's shadow. A lot of people aren't going to want to do that. I think they will find it's not the destination job they think it is and will have to accept an up and coming young coach or an assistant from a top program. They will have to look beyond winning the press conference and making the flashy hire.
I agree with virtually everything you said with the exception of your opening line: “won’t recruit itself” I mean we are in Year 7 and yet top talent like Horston is selecting the Lady Vols despite overwhelming evidence development and team success is getting harder to achieve.
Other than that, you are spot on.
Thanks.
 
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Holly brought in a decent 2015 class with MeMe Jackson and T’ea Cooper, who obviously transferred, but her 2016 class of just Kamera Harris was not good. I thought that would truly be the demise of the program, but she brought in really good classes back to back in 2017 and 2018 and this 2019 class isn’t too shabby either. Of course now she can use the excuse of youth, since Cheridene Green and MeMe Jackson are the only upperclassmen who play. Won’t be the same next year (unless Westbrook and Davis transfer!).
 
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You guys do understand that the school itself recruits we’ll. Women’s soccer (Elite 8) softball has the top recruiting classes the last two years and always goes to the World Series. Football hosts over 102,000 each game. It’s the heart of the SEC. it’s not a hard college to recruit to. The big name and big “tradition” etc whatever that is will always be there. It’s not a hard school to sell.
 

bballnut90

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I do think the history of the programs success does play a role but it depends on who the coach is and what the program has done lately.

I think Tennessee can continue to attract the elite of the elite post holly, with the right coach. That said, the road Tennessee is going down right now, I am not very sure how much longer the program will be able to sell itself. The pat legacy and the prestige of what that program once was was very shinny at the beginning years when Holly took over. A lot of kids grew up watching Tennessee the powerhouse it was. They are getting very far removed from what that program once was. They were lucky to get in the tournament this year.

I personally don't think you need to have someone with strong ties to the program to continue to have success. That said, replacing these legendary coaches is usually difficult. Tough to follow these coaches and meet these crazy expectations that they created. When Geno eventually steps down, it will be interesting. I am not saying the new coach won't or be successful, but I seriously doubt they will live up to what Geno has done his career at UCONN.

Tennessee isn't going to be a hard place to recruit to since it has the following:
-top notch facilities
-big budget school
-a huge fan base
-national recognition
-well known alum who've made huge names for themselves as pros
-a goliath (historically) in women's basketball


Coaching/personalities aside, on paper it is one of the easiest schools in the country to recruit to. Pat built the Lady Vol basketball brand which was well established across the country, and even now there is prestige in being able to say you were recruited by Tennessee or had a scholarship offer to Tennessee compared to getting an offer at say, Oregon State, even though Oregon State has clearly been the superior program the last 5 years. The fact that top kids are all still coming to Tennessee, or at least considering Tennessee, shows that it remains a top choice on the recruiting scene even if the program is a disaster.

I have no doubt Holly's attachment to Pat/all of the championship teams plays a part in kids coming, but I don't foresee a big drop off in recruitment unless the new coach is a total bust, at which point it'll be hard to recover from. Every year the program is further removed from Pat's legacy and it's only going to last so long.

If I'm the AD, I'd can Holly and find a better replacement, but try to make sure a well known alum or tie to the program stays on staff in some capacity, ideally as an assistant. Ex. bring in a strong mid-major coach with proven success and encourage her to hire on a former LV or someone on staff already. Sure, you may lose a player or 2 to transfer/decommitment but for the long haul of the program, it's in their best interest.
 
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Thanks Magy- do you think Tenn would go outside the Pat tree or even (Volnation forbid!) hire a man to lead the program? I am really perplexed on what direction this could take. :confused:

I think the present athletic director would like to see the Lady Vols return to glory. He and Pat Summitt were friends. To get a proven coach, he will have to go outside the Pat Summitt tree. It would be illegal to discriminate on the basis of sex in hiring. So being female can't be a requirement for the new coach.
 
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Pat built the Lady Vol basketball brand which was well established across the country, and even now there is prestige in being able to say you were recruited by Tennessee or had a scholarship offer to Tennessee compared to getting an offer at say, Oregon State, even though Oregon State has clearly been the superior program the last 5 years. The fact that top kids are all still coming to Tennessee, or at least considering Tennessee, shows that it remains a top choice on the recruiting scene even if the program is a disaster.
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Oregon State got two recruits over Tennessee this year in Taylor Jones and Kennedy Brown, but Evina Westbrook, Kamera Harris, Rae Burrell, and Jaime Nared all chase UT over Oregon State, but then they all (except Burrell) got thumped by a lower-seeded OSU. Will be interesting to see who heads to UT in 2020.
 

bballnut90

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Oregon State got two recruits over Tennessee this year in Taylor Jones and Kennedy Brown, but Evina Westbrook, Kamera Harris, Rae Burrell, and Jaime Nared all chase UT over Oregon State, but then they all (except Burrell) got thumped by a lower-seeded OSU. Will be interesting to see who heads to UT in 2020.

Tennessee also landed Mercedes Russell and Jordan Reynolds out of Oregon. Not sure anyone was really recruiting Kamera Harris very hard (Tennessee included)...she was pretty much a last minute fill in once Holly struck out on everyone else for 2016. Westbrook/Nared were both from Oregon, and Burrell is from Vegas. I guess that's my point.....Tennessee lands kids from everywhere and is routinely a finalist for top kids. Other strong programs like Oregon State, Mississippi State, Louisville, Maryland, Florida State, A&M, etc. are all better programs and clearly have better coaching, but there's more bragging rights/prestige for recruits to tell people they're playing for Tennessee. That status wont immediately change with a new coach but eventually will run out once the program disappears into oblivion and alums are no longer prominent figures in women's basketball (ex. Lawson, Catchings, Parker).
 

nwhoopfan

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DeShields had a nice rookie year. She could be carrying the banner for UT in the WNBA for quite some time.
 

bballnut90

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DeShields had a nice rookie year. She could be carrying the banner for UT in the WNBA for quite some time.
Tennessee is screwed if Deshields is their shining star. She's a player who left quit UT before her last year of eligibility and doesnt appear to have any connection with the program anymore after leaving on (what appeared to be) bad terms.
 

nwhoopfan

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Tennessee is screwed if Deshields is their shining star. She's a player who left quit UT before her last year of eligibility and doesnt appear to have any connection with the program anymore after leaving on (what appeared to be) bad terms.

Well, other than that it's all good...
 
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Tennessee is screwed if Deshields is their shining star. She's a player who left quit UT before her last year of eligibility and doesnt appear to have any connection with the program anymore after leaving on (what appeared to be) bad terms.
She still supports UT on Twitter, though usually not the women’s team specifically. In hindsight, Deshields was probably a high IQ player that was frustrated with clueless Warlick, and it was most likely unfair that Deshields was blamed for their problems. Deshields was an impressive rookie in the WNBA, showing much more than she ever showed at UtK.
 

JordyG

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She still supports UT on Twitter, though usually not the women’s team specifically. In hindsight, Deshields was probably a high IQ player that was frustrated with clueless Warlick, and it was most likely unfair that Deshields was blamed for their problems. Deshields was an impressive rookie in the WNBA, showing much more than she ever showed at UtK.
What I found particularly upsetting was how so many fans on the Vol site were willing to blame Deshields for their lack of success, continually citing her lack of good decision making, calling her a ball hog, a low basketball IQ player, a cancer in the locker room and so on. Many at the time seemed blind to the fact that Holly had taken a #1 recruit (Mercedes Russell) and had failed to coach her into being an AA. To my knowledge she is the first women's coach ever to do that. Few noted how little Diamond's game had improved since her time at NC. Few noted how little any of her players improved any of their games while at Tenn. Honestly I wouldn't blame Diamond if she still feels a little resentment toward her time playing varsity ball there. Holly is a wonderful person and a great recruiter. She is a terrible coach, a terrible motivator and a terrible leader.
 

bballnut90

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What I found particularly upsetting was how so many fans on the Vol site were willing to blame Deshields for their lack of success, continually citing her lack of good decision making, calling her a ball hog, a low basketball IQ player, a cancer in the locker room and so on. Many at the time seemed blind to the fact that Holly had taken a #1 recruit (Mercedes Russell) and had failed to coach her into being an AA. To my knowledge she is the first women's coach ever to do that. Few noted how little Diamond's game had improved since her time at NC. Few noted how little any of her players improved any of their games while at Tenn. Honestly I wouldn't blame Diamond if she still feels a little resentment toward her time playing varsity ball there. Holly is a wonderful person and a great recruiter. She is a terrible coach, a terrible motivator and a terrible leader.

People were definitely throwing Holly under the bus more than Diamond. Lots of fans weren't happy with her the previous 2 years, and once the team tanked in 2016/2017, most joined the "fire Holly" campaign.

Diamond took a lot of heat. I'll defend Tennessee fans that weren't exactly thrilled with Diamond at Tennessee though. Diamond came to Tennessee posting stuff on social media about how she's going to be the NPOY, she's the best player out of Georgia, etc. and then looked disinterested on the court, gave lackluster effort, etc. She looked like she had her own agenda on the court rather than just playing to win. She wasn't the leader or star she hyped herself up to be.

When Diamond played, the team was horrible both years despite having top 5 talent. Once Te'a Cooper was kicked off the team, Diamond left Tennessee high and dry after previously announcing she'd return for her 5th year. That's the biggest reason why fans threw her under the bus. Whether or not Diamond was at the center of locker room issues, there clearly was bad chemistry on the 2016-17 team. Doesn't help when your coach is clueless and provides zero discipline.

Diamond had a very good rookie campaign and looks like she could flourish in the league. It also appears she's enjoying herself and is playing better basketball than she ever did at Tennessee. Of course there will always be some naysayers after what happened, but most fans, including myself, are happy for her success and are rooting for her.
 

CocoHusky

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@JordyG is "IT"-the next Lady vols era- going to happen on Monday now that "it"-the expected Lady vols exit has happened? I'm just trying to make sure I'm prepared with something appropriate from the top shelf to celebrate with.
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She still supports UT on Twitter, though usually not the women’s team specifically. In hindsight, Deshields was probably a high IQ player that was frustrated with clueless Warlick, and it was most likely unfair that Deshields was blamed for their problems. Deshields was an impressive rookie in the WNBA, showing much more than she ever showed at UtK.

I think it helped her that with Chicago she walked into a locker room where there was an established veteran presence in VanderQuigs.

Coming to Tennessee and being expected to be the savior fed into all her worst impulses, imo. Whereas with Chicago, she was the secondary scoring presence among the starting wings and the tertiary ball handler. She was sort of forced to learn what it's like to be a cog in the machine instead of the whole show and she mostly adapted to it very well.
 
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@JordyG is "IT"-the next Lady vols era- going to happen on Monday now that "it"-the expected Lady vols exit has happened? I'm just trying to make sure I'm prepared with something appropriate from the top shelf to celebrate with.

Holly will be the coach next year, Fulmer gave her a contract extension last August. He did it to put to bed her being fired so not to scare off recruits of the uncertainty of her going into the last year of a contract. Recruits know what they are getting, a bad coach with a "name", over an unknown as they signed last fall. If Fulmer hadn't already extended it would have been really hard to justify it given the last 3 years and topped off by this one. But, since he did it already he would look like an absolute fool to fire her now. She's isn't resigning, she has her preseason "bootcamp" revamp plan...LOL!
 

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