Tennessee barely survives Chattanooga 59-57

[vtcwbuff]

“When you’re 3-18 from the three-point line, you need to understand that it’s time to quit shooting,”

Therein lies the problem - actually just one of the many problems. If your shooters are cold you don't tell them to quit shooting. Warlick needs to listen to Auriemma's philosophy about that - paraphrasing "if your chuckin' bricks find another way to help the team - but if you have a shot, take it" How many times have we watched great outside shooters miss shot after shot and then one goes in and it's lights out."

 

[Carnac]

IMO it is all very well and good to recruit & sign McDonald's All Americans to your squad but if their playing styles don't mesh and if their personal chemistry is lacking the coach is going to have a hard time building a true team, I don't care who you are talking about. Perhaps TN should concentrate on getting fewer AAs and sign very good players whose playing styles/chemistry complement each other.

I've noticed this before about Tennessee teams. Tremendous credentials & skills but unable to truly play as a team.

I've got a 1 word responce to your comment............PREACH!!

 

[Beemer]

Wow, I find myself in the odd position of defending the Lady Vols head coach but here it goes....

It's early.
Figuring out how to incorporate DD was always going to take time.
Soft in November does not mean soft in March.

Now if you will excuse me I have to shower.


unclean, unclean...

*Hands CL82 a bar of soap* On your way to the showers with you!!!

 

[Nuyoika]

I was 100% joking when I predicted that Chat might win this game, yet they almost did. Now I also predicted that TN would beat SCar this year. Honestly, that second prediction for me is a toss up. Nobody looks great right now. I am thoroughly perplexed.

 

[Bestiarius]

Go back to Pat's first 5 years as a HC and do that comparison. That was what I said in my post. So yeah, it's correct that Holly is recruiting at least as well as Pat in Pat's first 5 years. And per your fans, Cooper is one of the top 2-3 players in her class. So you have Deshields, Russell, and Cooper. Would you agree that at least 2 out of those 3 are better than Marciniak, Robinson, Ely, Hornbuckle, and Bjorkland? Pat started there in the early or mid 70's right? What was her recruiting like in the first 5 years? When did she start getting great players?

I don't see that as a valid comparison.

When Pat started, Tennessee was nowhere. There was no history and facilities to help with recruiting. Holly worked with Pat for a long time and it would be natural for recruits to assume that something rubbed off Pat onto Holly. For a valid comparison you'd have to assume Holly was 23 yrs old, never a coach, and got a head coach job at some other SEC school.

To me, this is a critical year for Holly, and it may already be too late for her. The inability to recruit a top post is an indication that recruits have doubts about Tennessee's future. If this year is not a success, it will be further confirmation in recruits minds that Tennessee is not the place to be. Rumors of Tenn's standing with 2017 recruits are just that, rumors.

It may also be difficult to attract a top level coach to replace Holly given the apparent attitude of the administration. I know there is a growing clamoring for Tyler Summitt to take the reins, but many feel he needs more experience first. Also, who's to say what he learned isn't what Holly learned from Pat, and we can see how that is working out. Another factor, does he want the job or would he rather forge his own career.

 

[bballnut90]

Go back to Pat's first 5 years as a HC and do that comparison. That was what I said in my post. So yeah, it's correct that Holly is recruiting at least as well as Pat in Pat's first 5 years. And per your fans, Cooper is one of the top 2-3 players in her class. So you have Deshields, Russell, and Cooper. Would you agree that at least 2 out of those 3 are better than Marciniak, Robinson, Ely, Hornbuckle, and Bjorkland? Pat started there in the early or mid 70's right? What was her recruiting like in the first 5 years? When did she start getting great players?

You can't compare Pat's recruiting in the 70s to Holly's recruiting in today's landscape, it's completely irrelevant. Holly inherited one of the most recognizable programs in the country that is automatically on most players top 4-5 schools before they ever are in contact with Tennessee.

And per ranking systems, Cooper was not a top 2-3 kid, so I'm going off of rankings and overall consensus rather than opinions of Tennessee fans. it's getting nit picky, but ultimately Holly hasn't shown the ability to make Tennessee a cohesive unit that plays great basketball. She has the talent to make UT a really great team this year. They've looked bad so far but I'm interested to see how the rest of the season plays out.

 

[willtalk]

Maybe Holly Warlick needs to go. They don't pay her for wins. At Tennessee it's about championships.

If they do replace her they need to think outside the box and get away from the "Good Ole Girl system". Things have changed in WCBB. Teams can no longer afford do in house hiring. The coaches are much better than those that existed back when Summit started out. One could succeed at a program that had a rep back then. Coaches were gleaned from ex players. Now not only do you need players but the standard for coaching has been elevated. Geno was the first of the the none player coaches to enter WCBB and changed the landscape. Summit and Vandervere would just be good coaches today and not the standouts among a weak field that they were.

 

[HoopsFan21]

Tennessee is on the cusp of irrelevance. If they don't make the final four in the next year or two, their fate will be sealed alongside USC, Old Dominion, La. Tech, etc. as kids they are recruiting will have grown up never having witnessed Tennessee do much of anything in the tourney. You can sell the idea that you can come play for the ghost of Pat Summitt for only so long. Louisville and Kentucky are competition for the Vols (geographically if nothing else), and if you're a recruit, who would you rather play for? A relative young dynamic coach like Walz who has been to the final twice in the last seven seasons and as recently as two seasons ago, or Holly Warlick? Some of Tennessee's problems are on the players, but the coaching staff deserves a lot of blame as well for not having their team prepared for the juggernauts Tennessee has played so far. Holly seems to do less with more. As others have touched on, one of the key differences between Geno and his staff and other programs is that Geno is interested in building a team rather than a rag tag collection of stars that hopefully will fit together. I think this is why UConn rarely takes in transfers whereas other teams almost reek of desperation and the associated shadiness of the transfer recruiting sweepstakes.

 

[EricLA]

You can't compare Pat's recruiting in the 70s to Holly's recruiting in today's landscape, it's completely irrelevant. Holly inherited one of the most recognizable programs in the country that is automatically on most players top 4-5 schools before they ever are in contact with Tennessee.

And per ranking systems, Cooper was not a top 2-3 kid, so I'm going off of rankings and overall consensus rather than opinions of Tennessee fans. it's getting nit picky, but ultimately Holly hasn't shown the ability to make Tennessee a cohesive unit that plays great basketball. She has the talent to make UT a really great team this year. They've looked bad so far but I'm interested to see how the rest of the season plays out.

Irrelevant? Hardly. But you are entitled to your opinion. Per wiki (perhaps it's wrong), in 1974 Pat took over a program that had gone 25-2 the previous year and was 16-8 in Pat's first year. Tennessee was 60-18 their previous 4 years before Pat's arrival under HC Margaret Hutson. So she inherited a program that was in MUCH better shape than you imply. Some seem to want to say that Tennessee basketball really didn't exist before Pat. But for what existed in WCBB at that time, they seemed very successful to me.I will admit I'm not familiar with the WCBB landscape in early 1970, but 60-18 over 4 years seems much better than just solid.

This is a very minute point, but if you want to argue that Pat recruited better because she got #1/2 players like Bjorkland, Robinson, Hornbuckle and Ely, I would point out that the experts were probably wrong. None of them were really elite players during their college careers, but if you want to argue that Deshields, Russell and Cooper are not uber elite, I won't argue. Holly is in her 4th or 5th year? How was Pat's recruiting even her first 10 years? When did she start landing top 5 recruits on a regular basis?

Getting back to the "should she stay or should she go" discussion, I do agree that she's an average coach who teaches the same "old" stuff that Pat taught. Problem is it worked for Pat but won't work any longer. I think that if Tennessee lands Kushkituah and a couple other top 30 kids from 2017, all this talk will disappear, unless Tennessee exits at the sweet 16 this year.

 

[bballnut90]

Irrelevant? Hardly. But you are entitled to your opinion. Per wiki (perhaps it's wrong), in 1974 Pat took over a program that had gone 25-2 the previous year and was 16-8 in Pat's first year. Tennessee was 60-18 their previous 4 years before Pat's arrival under HC Margaret Hutson. So she inherited a program that was in MUCH better shape than you imply. Some seem to want to say that Tennessee basketball really didn't exist before Pat. But for what existed in WCBB at that time, they seemed very successful to me.I will admit I'm not familiar with the WCBB landscape in early 1970, but 60-18 over 4 years seems much better than just solid.

This is a very minute point, but if you want to argue that Pat recruited better because she got #1/2 players like Bjorkland, Robinson, Hornbuckle and Ely, I would point out that the experts were probably wrong. None of them were really elite players during their college careers, but if you want to argue that Deshields, Russell and Cooper are not uber elite, I won't argue. Holly is in her 4th or 5th year? How was Pat's recruiting even her first 10 years? When did she start landing top 5 recruits on a regular basis?

Getting back to the "should she stay or should she go" discussion, I do agree that she's an average coach who teaches the same "old" stuff that Pat taught. Problem is it worked for Pat but won't work any longer. I think that if Tennessee lands Kushkituah and a couple other top 30 kids from 2017, all this talk will disappear, unless Tennessee exits at the sweet 16 this year.

It's completely irrelevant. In 1974, there was no money (Pat made $250 a month), no AAU scene or national exposure, and her first year they played 6 on 6 with offensive and defensive players who never passed half court. Pat Summitt washed her teams uniforms, drove the team van and all of her players were from Tennessee her first season. No national recruiting, all local kids. No lists or experts saying who the top prospects were, it was a totally different era.

Compare that to now where Holly's roster includes players from all over the country, there are companies that rank a player based on potential collegiate impact and huge national AAU tournaments that draw college coaches from all corners of the country. Not to mention paid recruiting visits, social media, and all sorts of other components that women's basketball recruiting has today. Totally different scenarios so comparing Pat's recruiting in the 1970s to Holly's 40 years later is irrelevant.

 

[EricLA]

It's completely irrelevant. In 1974, there was no money (Pat made $250 a month), no AAU scene or national exposure, and her first year they played 6 on 6 with offensive and defensive players who never passed half court. Pat Summitt washed her teams uniforms, drove the team van and all of her players were from Tennessee her first season. No national recruiting, all local kids. No lists or experts saying who the top prospects were, it was a totally different era.

Compare that to now where Holly's roster includes players from all over the country, there are companies that rank a player based on potential collegiate impact and huge national AAU tournaments that draw college coaches from all corners of the country. Not to mention paid recruiting visits, social media, and all sorts of other components that women's basketball recruiting has today. Totally different scenarios so comparing Pat's recruiting in the 1970s to Holly's 40 years later is irrelevant.

LOL. Like I said, you are entitled to your opinion. 1974 was a different era. You could argue that no sport can be compared from today to back then, yet it's done all the time. Irrelevant would be comparing women's basketball today to mens basketball in 1974, not looking at the similarities in WCBB for one single program. It almost sounds like you want Pat on a pedestal and make her out to be a saint while trying to down play what Holly has accomplished.

You never answered my question - when did Pat start reeling in the top 5 recruits? From the list you provided earlier, it looks like it took her almost 22 years (1996 - Marciniak and Holdsclaw). But maybe she started getting them in the late 1980's? (Tonya Edwards and Bridgette Gordon)? So it took Pat over 12 years to start landing elite level recruits? Holly's done that in her first 4 years. Geno did it in his first 7 or so years landing Lobo.

You (or other Tennessee fans) can try to argue that Holly is a poor HC or recruiter all you want. I'm just trying to defend her and point out that from a recruiting standpoint she's been a top 10 recruiter the past 5 years. Oh, and I guess you will argue that Geno's 10 NC's can't be compared to Pat's either because he didn't even win his first NC till Pat had been a HC for 21 years. Different era after all.

 

[pinotbear]

I was 100% joking when I predicted that Chat might win this game, yet they almost did. Now I also predicted that TN would beat SCar this year. Honestly, that second prediction for me is a toss up. Nobody looks great right now. I am thoroughly perplexed.

Except that, if memory serves, Chat has beaten the Vols twice in recent years. So, your prediction wasn't without some foundation, or, at least, recent history.

 

[Nuyoika]

Except that, if memory serves, Chat has beaten the Vols twice in recent years. So, your prediction wasn't without some foundation, or, at least, recent history.

True. I thought that Cooper and DeShields would make a big difference for them though. Hasn't proved to be the case yet.

 

[Boxerpups4me]

It's alarming as a Lady Vol fan to see the same problems creep up this year that happened last year, such as poor shooting, turnovers, erratic substitution patterns by Holly, poor 3 point defense. The list goes on and on. Now, they did correct most of that last year as the season progressed, but had a huge setback with Harrison getting injured. I think Holly will get most corrected, but the poor shooting concerns me the most because that's what ended our run in the tourny last year. All the Lady Vols can do is keep forging forward and let's see where they are at the end of the season....

As far as UCONN is concerned, it must be nice being a fan..10 NC's and more than likely an unprecedented 11th title that would tie John Wooden. Two legendary coaches of WCBB and only one is still coaching..enjoy it all you can because once they aren't there coaching anymore, it's almost as if some of the life of that program went away with the coach..I miss CPS dearly, not just as a basketball coach, but just as a generally nice person and I had the pleasure to meet her several times, including while I was a student at UT. She has bigger battles ahead, and as someone who has been affected by dementia very recently, I can attest to the struggles that come with this horrid disease. I wish her well..I also wish Geno well and hope he continues to coach as long as it is fun for him. It's not the same without CPS in the sport and I don't think it will be the same when Geno decides to hang it up

 

[Husky Pete]

It's alarming as a Lady Vol fan to see the same problems creep up this year that happened last year, such as poor shooting, turnovers, erratic substitution patterns by Holly, poor 3 point defense. The list goes on and on. Now, they did correct most of that last year as the season progressed, but had a huge setback with Harrison getting injured. I think Holly will get most corrected, but the poor shooting concerns me the most because that's what ended our run in the tourny last year. All the Lady Vols can do is keep forging forward and let's see where they are at the end of the season....

As far as UCONN is concerned, it must be nice being a fan..10 NC's and more than likely an unprecedented 11th title that would tie John Wooden. Two legendary coaches of WCBB and only one is still coaching..enjoy it all you can because once they aren't there coaching anymore, it's almost as if some of the life of that program went away with the coach..I miss CPS dearly, not just as a basketball coach, but just as a generally nice person and I had the pleasure to meet her several times, including while I was a student at UT. She has bigger battles ahead, and as someone who has been affected by dementia very recently, I can attest to the struggles that come with this horrid disease. I wish her well..I also wish Geno well and hope he continues to coach as long as it is fun for him. It's not the same without CPS in the sport and I don't think it will be the same when Geno decides to hang it up

Geno and John Wooden currently are tied with 10 championships each.

 

[bballnut90]

LOL. Like I said, you are entitled to your opinion. 1974 was a different era. You could argue that no sport can be compared from today to back then, yet it's done all the time. Irrelevant would be comparing women's basketball today to mens basketball in 1974, not looking at the similarities in WCBB for one single program. It almost sounds like you want Pat on a pedestal and make her out to be a saint while trying to down play what Holly has accomplished.

You never answered my question - when did Pat start reeling in the top 5 recruits? From the list you provided earlier, it looks like it took her almost 22 years (1996 - Marciniak and Holdsclaw). But maybe she started getting them in the late 1980's? (Tonya Edwards and Bridgette Gordon)? So it took Pat over 12 years to start landing elite level recruits? Holly's done that in her first 4 years. Geno did it in his first 7 or so years landing Lobo.

You (or other Tennessee fans) can try to argue that Holly is a poor HC or recruiter all you want. I'm just trying to defend her and point out that from a recruiting standpoint she's been a top 10 recruiter the past 5 years. Oh, and I guess you will argue that Geno's 10 NC's can't be compared to Pat's either because he didn't even win his first NC till Pat had been a HC for 21 years. Different era after all.

I'm not sure when Pat started landing elite recruits, this was a time well before I was even born. I'm not sure there was any way to classify elite recruits back then. That said, she was competing in Final Fours in the early 80s, so she probably had strong players early in her career. Holly has done a solid job recruiting when you compare her classes to 95% of other programs, but not at the level Pat did or at the level needed to elevate Tennessee to be a title contender. Deshields/Russell are the first truly elite recruits Tennessee has had since 2008, but she'll need to do a better job of getting her team to play cohesive offense and defense before they'll be a title contender again. From what I've seen thus far, I'm hopeful but I wouldn't be on it happening this year or possibly ever as long as she is coach.

 

[Icebear]

Tennessee has the talented players on PAPER.....However, what is uncertain is their mentality and playing together versus poor coaching. IMO, it is both. Due to injuries and transfers this team has not played together that much. At least at UCONN, we have 4 returning starters and our 5th starter played all last season.

She has athletic players on paper, not necessarily basketballers. As Geno's says you have to have people who know how to put the rock in the hole.

 

[Icebear]

“When you’re 3-18 from the three-point line, you need to understand that it’s time to quit shooting,”

Therein lies the problem - actually just one of the many problems. If your shooters are cold you don't tell them to quit shooting. Warlick needs to listen to Auriemma's philosophy about that - paraphrasing "if your chuckin' bricks find another way to help the team - but if you have a shot, take it" How many times have we watched great outside shooters miss shot after shot and then one goes in and it's lights out."

Yup, no matter what you need to score the rock, somehow, someway, at sometime.