SW Force Awakens - Review w/ spoilers (Don't read until after you see it)

[intlzncster]

Just parked my in a seat. Giggety.

Sorry Huskies.

Hey, we won. You know what you have to do now.

 

[intlzncster]

An interesting commentary that I pretty much entirely agree with:

Yeah good take. I tried to balance my review with positive and negative points, but looking back it seems a bit more negative. Oh well.

"I also think that being a contrarian dick makes people feel intelligent."

Great line. And apropos of the forum.

 

[tzznandrew]

Eh, this is more of a pet peeve of mine than anything else. I'm about as anti-PC as you come; don't like people telling me what to think and do. PC culture just sucks all the humor and fun out life imo. And I'm not a conservative person socially either (not talking political designations here so don't start). So caring about type casting has nothing to do with black/white/green/purple people in the abstract. I don't care who you are as long as you're good.

It's just that Hollywood is really pushes home the 'inclusive' thing. It's cloying frankly. For example, Hollywood is pervasive with these ass kicking lead role chicks. Now if she's a superhero, vampire, jedi, or whatever, I can get behind that. Suspending disbelief is easy there. But the number of times I see some sprightly little chick kick the crap out of big badass trained killers is nauseating. I guess it's kind of like WCBB fans saying that Maya Moore could play on a men's team or something. It's like, no. No she couldn't. /rant Anyway, not really the clearest explanation of what I was going for, but c'est la vie. Not much to see there I guess.

Hmm. Interesting the different takes on that. I think if the message was "look at us, we're being inclusive," sure, it's frustrating. But it just felt to me these were people. I mean, I think it's strange that casting a woman or a black man in a top blockbuster role would have to be some comment. The fact that the Marvel Movies have yet to have a movie led by a woman or non-white man is interesting.

And as for Hollywood being pervasive in these ass kicking lead role chicks... it is? Maybe I just don't see a lot of movies, but I can't really think of a ton. Kill Bill, Mad Max, this Star Wars. Sarah Connor in the old Terminator movies (but even there she's secondary).

I take your point on willing suspension of disbelief, though. That's still important for the movies. I just can't personally think of an action movie led by a woman outside of those I mentioned, and in each of those that isn't a problem, so far as I can remember.

 

[8893]

I see Rey as similar to the Jennifer Lawrence role in The Hunger Games movies.

The role of the woman huntress is certainly nothing new or PC. At least as far back as the Celts it was common to see women in these leading roles.

 

[tzznandrew]

I see Rey as similar to the Jennifer Lawrence role in The Hunger Games movies.

The role of the woman huntress is certainly nothing new or PC. At least as far back as the Celts it was common to see women in these leading roles.

There's another film I totally missed. I just don't go to the movies.

 

[storrsroars]

I enjoyed IV, V and VI. But I was much younger and those kinds of movies appealed to me in my 20s. I'm pretty tired of the series. I don't care for Marvel universe movies and this series is going that way. I had my wife's family in for the weekend and her nephew wanted to see VII, so I went, albeit reluctantly. It was IMAX 3-d.

I was immediately depressed as the coming attractions were pretty much completely comic book movies. Nothing I'm looking forward to seeing.

I pretty much agree with the complaints upthread as to plot holes and being too similar to IV.

Of the performances, there was no nuance to be found, except perhaps between Han and Leia. Chewy did more actual acting than the villains or the heroes. I actually found myself wishing Chewy had more screen time. The alien with the specs was probably the best acting of all. All her scenes were worthwhile.

Somebody just blast C3PO into bits. Inserting "him" into this movie was gratuitous at best. At least R2D2 being there had a point to it.

Why do stormtroopers even wear armor if the armor is useless? The fight scenes reminded me of 40s/50s movies where the heroes take out dozens of trained shooters while remaining unharmed themselves, even from shrapnel bits. Not to mention appearing to be the only ones to make it out of an exploding building alive.

I don't read the fan books or sites that discuss the details and backstories, but why does Ren even wear a helmet? Darth needed it due to disfigurement. Ren doesn't.

Obviously I'm not the target demographic. And seeing this did nothing to get me to eagerly await the next one.

 

[8893]

There's another film I totally missed. I just don't go to the movies.

Me neither. I saw that on DVD at the insistence of my oldest daughter, who promised I would like it. She was right. It was a very good movie imo. I have not seen the third, but akin to our discussions here, I thought the second one was a lot like a rehash of the first.

 

[intlzncster]

Hmm. Interesting the different takes on that. I think if the message was "look at us, we're being inclusive," sure, it's frustrating. But it just felt to me these were people. I mean, I think it's strange that casting a woman or a black man in a top blockbuster role would have to be some comment. The fact that the Marvel Movies have yet to have a movie led by a woman or non-white man is interesting.

And as for Hollywood being pervasive in these ass kicking lead role chicks... it is? Maybe I just don't see a lot of movies, but I can't really think of a ton. Kill Bill, Mad Max, this Star Wars. Sarah Connor in the old Terminator movies (but even there she's secondary).

I don't really want to get caught up in this, as I'd rather discuss the movie, but to respond: see, I think it almost IS 'look at us we are being inclusive'. This isn't based on Star Wars, it is a general overall observation of Hollywood. My initial reaction was based on that, prior to seeing the film; watching the movie, all characters worked really well, so I was happy. Yes, I realize this is a personal perspective.

I don't pay attention to movies all that much these days, as I'm more of a TV series guys. The best work is being done on TV, and movies, from Hollywood at any rate, are really, really lagging. But I do see it all the time. Small skinny chick grabs massive badasses ear and wrestles him into submission in a crying heap in front of her. It's just, "come on man."

Marvel has Wonder Woman coming out in 2017. And there's currently a super girl TV series. Gotham has a 16 year old chick who can inexplicably kick ass. And Marvel in general is sourced from comic books themselves, which has always been geared towards young males (the buyers).

Outside of this, on Ep VII in general, reading that other guys perspective on Facebook was a good take. I need to see the movie again, before I draw most of my conclusions. I think I missed the Rey backstory thing, and agree there's probably a lot more there than I thought. Again, I just assumed analogous to Luke, given that so much of the movie was the same as Ep IV. Star Wars Ring Theory was interesting too.

 

[intlzncster]

I see Rey as similar to the Jennifer Lawrence role in The Hunger Games movies.

The role of the woman huntress is certainly nothing new or PC. At least as far back as the Celts it was common to see women in these leading roles.

I didn't say it's new. Nor did I say it had to be a lead character. It's often in minor ones.

Divergent is a prime example, which is Hunger Games light. I don't mind the Kill Bills, because Tarantino movies are deliberate satire of violence. All you have to do is watch the typical gun fight and you can see that.

You notice it a lot in TV shows these days. See something like Banshee, with Carrie. Or Orphan Black with Helena. It's so far from reality, you just role your eyes. Movies are kind of cookie cutter. They'll do a remake of a movie but stick a female in the lead character just because; see the next RoadHouse which will star Ronda Rousey. Criminal that they are remaking that movie anyway.

Again, don't want to get caught up in this, as I'd rather talk about EpVII in general.

 

[tzznandrew]

I don't really want to get caught up in this, as I'd rather discuss the movie, but to respond: see, I think it almost IS 'look at us we are being inclusive'. This isn't based on Star Wars, it is a general overall observation of Hollywood. My initial reaction was based on that, prior to seeing the film; watching the movie, all characters worked really well, so I was happy. Yes, I realize this is a personal perspective.

I don't pay attention to movies all that much these days, as I'm more of a TV series guys. The best work is being done on TV, and movies, from Hollywood at any rate, are really, really lagging. But I do see it all the time. Small skinny chick grabs massive badasses ear and wrestles him into submission in a crying heap in front of her. It's just, "come on man."

Marvel has Wonder Woman coming out in 2017. And there's currently a super girl TV series. Gotham has a 16 year old chick who can inexplicably kick ass. And Marvel in general is sourced from comic books themselves, which has always been geared towards young males (the buyers).

Outside of this, on Ep VII in general, reading that other guys perspective on Facebook was a good take. I need to see the movie again, before I draw most of my conclusions. I think I missed the Rey backstory thing, and agree there's probably a lot more there than I thought. Again, I just assumed analogous to Luke, given that so much of the movie was the same as Ep IV. Star Wars Ring Theory was interesting too.

Well, none of those are Marvel, they're all DC.

Agree that, in general, TV is where it's at. Don't see a lot of movies, but love the diversity and depth of television television stories. The characters are much richer and the plots more interesting. Marvel has Jessica Jones (who has super strength) and Daredevil on Netflix, both of which I thought were great.

All this is a matter of opinion, obviously. I guess the whole "having a black guy and a woman as leads" doesn't strike me as PC, but just something that should be unsurprising, and is frankly all too rare. But too each his own.

I saw the movie twice. Lots of my opinions shifted after the first time. Somehow, I found it less derivative on second viewing.

 

[intlzncster]

I don't read the fan books or sites that discuss the details and backstories, but why does Ren even wear a helmet? Darth needed it due to disfigurement. Ren doesn't.

This one's easy to answer. Three reasons I can think of: 1. He clearly idolizes and strives to be Vader. Vader wears a helmet, so will Ren. 2. It is an intimidation factor. It makes him far more intimidating than otherwise and adds to his power over others 3. It hides his insecurities and makes himself feel more powerful. We know he's not all together emotionally, and this is a way to hide it.

 

[intlzncster]

Well, none of those are Marvel, they're all DC.

lol got me there.

 

[junglehusky]

What if I told you... it's not about just inclusiveness or PC, but about money? Families taking their daughters to the movies, buying toys for their daughters, that expands the market. Having members of the cast be non-white expands the market. Yay capitalism.

 

[intlzncster]

What if I told you... it's not about just inclusiveness or PC, but about money? Families taking their daughters to the movies, buying toys for their daughters, that expands the market. Having members of the cast be non-white expands the market. Yay capitalism.

Oh I agree with that entirely. A main part of the reason Hollywood sucks so bad right now, is that movies are made at the behest of marketing guys, not director vision. That shift has slowly been happening since the 70s, but has accelerated greatly in the 2000s. They want to make movies that make the most money, not that are the best movies. I'm saying this in general, disregarding the previous PC comment.

The best movies are made overseas now. Smaller film industries. Less answering to censors. Less answering to big money men. More creative license. Less Hollywood plastic star casting. More adult themes, adult characterizations, and real people as actors.

This article, though a few years old, is for people who love film and are curious about the 'state of the industry'. Highly recommend reading it.

https://www.gq.com/story/the-day-the-movies-died-mark-harris

All that said, PC culture is incredibly pervasive in Hollywood. If you speak out against certain things, rightly or wrongly, you can be blackballed.

 

[Deadrody]

Well, none of those are Marvel, they're all DC.

Agree that, in general, TV is where it's at. Don't see a lot of movies, but love the diversity and depth of television television stories. The characters are much richer and the plots more interesting. Marvel has Jessica Jones (who has super strength) and Daredevil on Netflix, both of which I thought were great.

All this is a matter of opinion, obviously. I guess the whole "having a black guy and a woman as leads" doesn't strike me as PC, but just something that should be unsurprising, and is frankly all too rare. But too each his own.

I saw the movie twice. Lots of my opinions shifted after the first time. Somehow, I found it less derivative on second viewing.

It probably wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue if not for all the debate that goes on in Hollywood and the culture overall. Even if the people making the film aren't bashing you over the head with "look at us were so inclusive", there are throngs of professional SJWs whose reason for existing revolves around this very issue.

It is annoying. The fact is, none of us know the qualify of scripts that major studios may be passing on that are written by women, that might star women, etc. But the other simple fact is that if you're a white guy making a movie, chances are that movie is about people like you. It's no more complex than that. The ironic thing is, if you're talking about a movie made by a white guy, the SJW types want more women and minorities in it, and then when said white guy can't "authentically" write parts for strong minority or female characters, the very same SJW types will take issue with that.

 

[Scalito]

I didn't say it's new. Nor did I say it had to be a lead character. It's often in minor ones.

Divergent is a prime example, which is Hunger Games light. I don't mind the Kill Bills, because Tarantino movies are deliberate satire of violence. All you have to do is watch the typical gun fight and you can see that.

You notice it a lot in TV shows these days. See something like Banshee, with Carrie. Or Orphan Black with Helena. It's so far from reality, you just role your eyes. Movies are kind of cookie cutter. They'll do a remake of a movie but stick a female in the lead character just because; see the next RoadHouse which will star Ronda Rousey. Criminal that they are remaking that movie anyway.

Again, don't want to get caught up in this, as I'd rather talk about EpVII in general.

It irritates me much less in the fantasy and comic book genres. Not only is it not new to them because adolescent boys dream of hot girls in tight pants that act like men, so it seems less forced, it is less forced there. After all, a woman with super power this or wonderful power that can kick the crap out of men. It's when I see it in the action genre that I roll my eyes and get annoyed. Sorry, but small, good looking ch-cks can't beat up adolescent boys. One punch from a dude, and Ms. Frasier goes down. It's why we teach boys not to hit girls . . . .

The sexes are different. It's ok. Just like it's okay for a vampire Kate Beckinsale to run around in skintight leather kicking the crap out of dudes.

 

[ZooCougar]

I thought they nailed it with Rey. She looks the part, being a woman, that only adds to the underdog aspect that is required of the character. Plus, she's been fending for herself her whole life as scavenger so she is more street smart than Luke. I honestly didn't even consider the fact that she was a woman until I saw this thread.

The character that was maybe a little implausible to me was Finn. He seemed more like a character that was recently abducted by the First Order than one that suddenly had an epiphany that they were evil while on a mission with a bunch of other crack Stormtroopers. Even still, it was OK though. The jokes about him working in sanitation and the quip about the trash compactor were just exceptional writing.

 

[Palatine]

At (or near) the beginning of the movie the Rae character is rummaging through a junk yard picking up spare parts.

It's an analogy for what JJ Abrams did. He rummaged through the previous movies picking up parts and reusing them.

 

[Deadrody]

The sexes are different. It's ok.

That's the key. Much of the SJW world is busy trying to remake the world and the culture to pretend men and women are interchangeable.

The most ironic thing is, at the lowest level, everyone that isn't somehow connected to the PC world of SJWs just knows this to be true. 98% of boys are still into the things boys have always been into and 98% of girls are into the things girls have always been into. Including each other.

 

[UCFBfan]

Me neither. I saw that on DVD at the insistence of my oldest daughter, who promised I would like it. She was right. It was a very good movie imo. I have not seen the third, but akin to our discussions here, I thought the second one was a lot like a rehash of the first.

I know this sidetracks the convo here but read the books. They are far and away better then the movies. Haven't seen either part of Mockingjay but was neutral about both of the first two movies

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Doesn't change the fact that girls deserve to have folk heroes as well. Star Wars doesn't sell on being realistic. Because b!tch-made Luke had no business saving anyone or anything. Wake up. Nerds who fantasize about saving the universe, who built the franchise, are at best on the same level as girls wishing on the same. Star Wars is not a simple macho "action" series. It's a Hero's Journey, which transcends sex and the surface level content of sword fighting and shooting guns; and you're simple if you don't see that and fail to applaud a female lead.

Odd that some fans complain that Rey can't be the lead character because a 'girl' can't be as strong as 'boy' while, at the same time, have no issue with Yoda's ability to kick arse. Without the Force, Rey would crack Yoda's head open in less than 30 seconds with her staff. I believe the Force fully embraces the 'size matters not' concept, which can be applied to skin color, gender, size, alien species, etc.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Odd that some fans complain that Rey can't be the lead character because a 'girl' can't be as strong as 'boy' while, at the same time, have no issue with Yoda's ability to kick arse. Without the Force, Rey would crack Yoda's head open in less than 30 seconds with her staff. I believe the Force fully embraces the 'size matters not' concept, which can be applied to skin color, gender, size, alien species, etc.

Every Jedi literally relies on magic to not get their asses kicked at every turn. Oh but we can't have a chick do that. She'd get destroyed in seconds in real life.

 

[junglehusky]

Every Jedi literally relies on magic to not get their asses kicked at every turn. Oh but we can't have a chick do that. She'd get destroyed in seconds in real life.

Sorry to divert the topic but this is making me go back to how Order 66 was dumb. Here's a bunch wizards with heightened senses and telekinetic powers and they get shot down by a bunch of grunts.

A better way to do it would have been to have all the Jedi at the temple when Anakin / Darth Vader went on his rampage. Instead of just killing younglings he'd take on all of the Jedi Masters at once - and win.

It irritates me much less in the fantasy and comic book genres. Not only is it not new to them because adolescent boys dream of hot girls in tight pants that act like men, so it seems less forced, it is less forced there. After all, a woman with super power this or wonderful power that can kick the crap out of men. It's when I see it in the action genre that I roll my eyes and get annoyed. Sorry, but small, good looking ch-cks can't beat up adolescent boys. One punch from a dude, and Ms. Frasier goes down. It's why we teach boys not to hit girls . . . .

The sexes are different. It's ok. Just like it's okay for a vampire Kate Beckinsale to run around in skintight leather kicking the crap out of dudes.

As far as the new trope of the kickass female lead goes, I do think it's getting a little stale (Hunger Games / Divergent / Fifth Wave etc etc), but it's better than telling girls that their role in the world is to sit in one location and wait for a male character to do all the action / story development. Princess Leia put a small dent in that old Hollywood trope, so did Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor but it was still decades before it finally ended. The Bechdel test still applies to many scripts.

And all this stuff about "oh it's not realistic" --- Rocky was not realistic. John Wayne wouldn't last long in the Old West. Steven Segal would get his ass kicked in a street fight. Every 80's action hero would die in the first 2 minutes of a real gun battle. Hollywood is not realistic.

 

[intlzncster]

And all this stuff about "oh it's not realistic" --- Rocky was not realistic. John Wayne wouldn't last long in the Old West. Steven Segal would get his ass kicked in a street fight. Every 80's action hero would die in the first 2 minutes of a real gun battle. Hollywood is not realistic.

But there are certain things where it's tough to suspend your belief enough to enjoy a movie. If I'm watching an adult movie and an ordinary kid starts kicking a bunch of trained mercenaries arses, I'm just like, "this is stupid".

When you step out of reality, ie give women, kids or whatever 'The Force' or magic, then it makes much more sense. And is easily digestible.

It also has to do with other situations too. For instance, I thought Fury was amazing for most of the movie, especially depicting life in a tank. But then they got to scene where the crew in a broken down tank defeats an entire SS Panzer division, and I'm like, this is dumb. It could have been a much, much better written scene and made the movie overall a tour de force.

 

[Deadrody]

Just saying in general

Doesn't change the fact that girls deserve to have folk heroes as well. Star Wars doesn't sell on being realistic. Because b!tch-made Luke had no business saving anyone or anything. Wake up. Nerds who fantasize about saving the universe, who built the franchise, are at best on the same level as girls wishing on the same. Star Wars is not a simple macho "action" series. It's a Hero's Journey, which transcends sex and the surface level content of sword fighting and shooting guns; and you're simple if you don't see that and fail to applaud a female lead.

Please do not respond to a post of mine and then include a quote that says "You're simple if you ... fail to applaud a female lead"

I have no problem whatsoever with a female lead and not one word I've posted in this or any other thread would indicate otherwise. The fact that you see the need to use the term "b!tch made Luke" and then expect to be taken seriously is hysterical, to say the least.

My issue is centered entirely around people that complain there aren't enough of whatever - female leads, minority characters, etc - and then expect the existing cast of writers, directors, and producers to create them. By all means, if you fancy yourself a writer or director, get to writing that screenplay or book with a female lead surrounded by nothing but minority characters. Nobody else is under any obligation to cater to YOUR preferences anymore than anyone else's.

The fact of the matter is, the people making TV shows, movies, video games, whatever are chasing dollars and nothing more. If there were actually a tremendous market for what SJWs clamor for, they would already be making them.