Sue Bird, Diana Taurasi open door for Team USA return | Page 3 | The Boneyard

Sue Bird, Diana Taurasi open door for Team USA return

UcMiami

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As has been alluded to, the men's US basketball team features point guards that are known as scorers. The 2016 gold medal team's point guards were Kyrie Irving and Kyle Lowry who averaged 19.6 ppg and 21.2 ppg, respectively in the season before the Olympics.

I agree that the women's game requires teamwork. Playing a scoring point guard does not mean that the offensive players are "doing their own thing". Again, the Warriors play great team basketball with a scoring point guard.
Interestingly the USA men's team - Irving averaged 11.4 points and 4.9 assists while Lowry averaged 5 pts and 3.8 assists so they played a very different style from their NBA teams. Irving was 5th on the team in shot attempts and Lowry was 9th. The players on that team averaged .369 shots per man/minute played while the two PGs averaged .308 shots per man minute, so fewer shots than the four other players on the court at the same time - sort of the definition of a pass first PG.
 

UcMiami

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Angel being given a role is precisely opposite of what I'm concerned about in the selection of the team but it still provides an excellent example. My concern is that Angel would not be selected for the team because in the judgment of someone, Angel would not be willing to accept a certain role. These are once in a life time opportunity, you would be surprised what roles players would be willing to accept to be part of these teams. Similar to UConn's approach to recruiting, you should pick the best player available for the basketball things your team is trying to accomplish. Remarkably enough some pretty good "role" players end up at UConn and work in perfect harmony with super recruits to win NC. There will always be roles to fill because this is a team sport, if you eliminate people from consideration for a certain role they will never get an opportunity to surprise you ( in a good way) like Angel did.
That is why I said I understood what you were saying, and I agree that you cannot assume anything with regard to the NT though I think the evaluation of the team pool is a process that does look to identify that willingness. And I think most people on this board felt that the Parker situation for the 2016 team was exactly related to how she had handled the situation in the past (not an assumption but a historical reference.) I don't want to open that can of worms again but it is the obvious example with respect to the NT.

The other aspect is most people do focus on offensive skills when evaluating who should and shouldn't be selected, while USA really does focus a lot of evaluation on defense as well. I actually think the selections of Sims over Diggins had nothing to do with Griner and a lot to do with defensive intensity.
 
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For those that are suggesting that Wilson get's an advantage because Dawn will be the coach, does that also mean Moriah will get less consideration because Geno is not?
Yes
 

CocoHusky

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I hope you are wrong. I think 6 players would have been in consideration for 2018/20 for 1 (Bird) or 2 ( Bird & Whalen's) spots on the national team. I see these as guard spots more than "pure" PG spots because quite frankly I'm not sure Dawn would know what to do with a pure PG since it's been a minute since Dawn has coached one. Kmac, Jewell, Courtney, Moriah, Oddsey and Skylar. Courtney has bowed out. I like Moriah's chances because of her ability to apply on ball pressure well above the others. I really really like Moriah's chances if it ends up being two spots.
 

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Interestingly the USA men's team - Irving averaged 11.4 points and 4.9 assists while Lowry averaged 5 pts and 3.8 assists so they played a very different style from their NBA teams. Irving was 5th on the team in shot attempts and Lowry was 9th. The players on that team averaged .369 shots per man/minute played while the two PGs averaged .308 shots per man minute, so fewer shots than the four other players on the court at the same time - sort of the definition of a pass first PG.

That's fair and that's why it bothers me when people say that Diggins and Sims and whoever else aren't "suited" for the national team. Players can adjust the way the play to fit the needs of the national team.
 

nwhoopfan

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IIRC Sims wasn't a big time scorer until her Sr. year at Baylor, after Griner graduated. Diggins may have been a scorer throughout her career at Notre Dame but she was a member of some really good teams that had some balanced scoring. Agree w/ above poster, I'm not convinced at this point that either of those players are bad fits for the NT. I keep harping on it, but if not in '20 then definitely in '24 there are going to need to be some new guards playing for the NT. Maybe Jefferson is one of them, but somebody else needs to fill some slots. Who knows, by '24 maybe Ionescu will be the best guard in the U.S...



Maybe women's basketball is totally different in this regard, but I don't really think so. Pass first PG is kind of a thing of the past for the most part. Most of the best PG are scoring threats. They don't have to be the first option, but they definitely aren't the last option. You can facilitate an offense and still have plenty of scoring opportunities yourself.
 

nwhoopfan

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Just out of curiosity I looked at college stats for Sims and Diggins. Both were over 500 career assists and not all that far behind Jefferson. Kelsey Plum who was obviously a shoot first PG also had over 500 in her career. Jefferson's 659 look kinda paltry compared to Vandersloot's 1118.
 

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It's probably worth remembering the words of Geno and Dawn Staley in February of 2016. They both addressed the point guard issues and they could not have been more direct that the young guards had not shown that they're ready for the job.

"Right now there is no clear cut person that you would say that’s the next one,’’ Auriemma said. "It was easy when (Bird) was coming out because whoever they had – Teresa Edwards, Dawn Staley, that group – and Sue was coming out. They brought her over there, her and (Diana Taurasi), and said, 'OK, these are the next two.’ It’s not that easy right now to go, 'OK, here it is.’ Because if it was they’d be on the team this year. But in the next two years somebody’s going to have to emerge between now and the World Championship in 2018.’’

Dawn, who was the point guard in 3 Olympics, also addressed the failure of the younger guards to step up and prove they belong on the team:

"There are players that have some of the attributes,’’ Staley said. "I haven’t seen a complete one yet. And I think that’s a big question mark because every point guard that has been the leader for our USA Basketball team had someone that was their understudy.

"It’s a duty of service,’’ Staley said. "You’re serving other people. It’s selflessness. It’s all the intangibles it takes for a team to be successful. And that’s hard because some of the younger point guards they’re more scoring point guards. And because they think being aggressive and getting their shot off and to get in the flow, they miss a step when it comes to being the fourth or fifth option on a USA Basketball National Team level. So it takes adjusting. It takes an adjustment for some of the younger players.’’


Geno and Dawn are just coaches whose role with USA Basketball was and is to coach the team to a championship every 2 years. There are others, Carol Callan and Selection Committee members, whose job it is to take care of USA Basketball in the long term. The fact that the Selection Committee has not yet identified the next point guard to lead USA Basketball says a lot. There will be a training camp in Sept/Oct of this year so maybe we'll get a sense of which direction USA BB might go in for its guard play.



 

UcMiami

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UconnCat - thanks for searching out those comments, i remember reading them but was too lazy to search for them. Certainly seems pretty clear what the former and new coach are looking for.

NWHoopfan - the Uconn system is much more likely to produce 4 or 5 players each year with 100 assists than a player that comes close to the top 5 in total assists per year. Uconn consistently as a team is in the top three in total assists each year (and often #1) just as they are near the top of points per game - but no individual player dominates either scoring or assists - The career totals for the Uconn 'great' PGs - Sue, DT, and Moriah are half of what the NCAA career records are.

I agree that PGs need to be scoring threats to be really good - even a great passer needs to demand defensive attention as a scorer to be really effective. Early in Moriah's career she was left unguarded by a few teams (Tara and Stanford for example) and struggle to make them pay - by her junior and senior years no one was taking that chance. The reason Sue and DT are the best ever international backcourt (and were so deadly in 2002 in college) is because DT is a scoring guard who is a great passers and Sue is a PG who is a very efficient scorer.

The trick for a great PG is knowing when to shoot and being efficient - the first job is to get the offense running smoothly and the other four players on the court comfortable and passing them the ball in the best spots for them to score, the second job is to provide an outlet for the other players when the defense closes them down and be a threat to score on that return pass while knowing when to take that opening vs. making another pass to someone else. Too many of the really good guards spend so much time on teams where they are expected to carry a significant amount of the scoring that it is hard for them to know which of their normal shots they should take and which they shouldn't. On a national team loaded with scoring stars, if the PG is averaging 1/5 or more of the shots taken in the minutes she is on the court there is a problem - in any given game she might average over that 1/5 based on the defense being played, but in aggregate over multiple games it suggest the team is in trouble.

The same issue exists for all the other players on the USA national team to a lesser extent - with so many scoring options on the floor all the time figuring out who should actually shoot on each possession is different from pretty much any other team they play on. Which shots they should take and having no doubt about it when they do shoot is part of the learning process.

And we see that learning process every year with the Uconn team as well - Napheesa in particular really frustrated Geno her freshman year. In practice he said they would pass her the ball in the lane and no one could stop her scoring, but as soon as she got into a live game she would refuse to shoot when she got the pass - she was too busy deferring to the older players. She seemed to solve that issue pretty effectively last year! :eek::) (To the point that Geno starting commenting on her lack of assists!:rolleyes:)

NW - on the non-scoring PGs - Allen (ND) and Johnson (Baylor) both had tons of college assists and were great PGs but have struggled catching on with WNBA rosters because they aren't good enough scorers - I think they both can get there, but they are the examples of players who are too far into the 'pass first, pass only' class of PG. Kelly Faris (not a PG) is another player who has struggled for the same reason.
 
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triaddukefan

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Perhaps those 24-27 year old starting PG's in the WNBA should start searching for another country to possibly represent in the 2020 Olympics :oops:


Parker is toast. The fact still remains that there are 2 players at her position who are better - EDD & Stew.

Nneka will be a fierce competitor. If the Olympics were 2018, she'd easily make it over Wilson. But since it's 2020 ...

Hmmmmmm .... I dunno about that...... you are talking about currently better.... or better in 2020?
 

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It's probably worth remembering the words of Geno and Dawn Staley in February of 2016.

Is it? I'm questioning the logic of USAB. Restating that logic isn't all that useful to me because it's the *exact thing I'm questioning*.

If we take the USAB coach's opinion as the last word on the matter, there is no point even discussing national team selection. We should just wait for them to deliver pronouncements.

Besides, their comments were about 2016. Geno's "somebody's going to have to emerge" comment and Dawn's mention that the USAB PGs typically have understudies both speak to what some of us are saying - one or more younger guards should be on the 2018 team, if only in an "understudy" capacity.
 

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Is it? I'm questioning the logic of USAB. Restating that logic isn't all that useful to me because it's the *exact thing I'm questioning*.

If we take the USAB coach's opinion as the last word on the matter, there is no point even discussing national team selection. We should just wait for them to deliver pronouncements.

Besides, their comments were about 2016. Geno's "somebody's going to have to emerge" comment and Dawn's mention that the USAB PGs typically have understudies both speak to what some of us are saying - one or more younger guards should be on the 2018 team, if only in an "understudy" capacity.

Well it's useful to me which is why I restated it. I agree that one or more younger guards should be on the 2018 team and I believe will be on the team. Part of the discussion here has looked back on why younger guards weren't on the 2016 Olympic team and these quotes tell us why that didn't happen. Of the group of available young guards not one emerged worthy of a spot on the Olympic team and the investment that selection represents. Both Geno and Dawn spoke of USA BB's approach to investing in and grooming young point guards to eventually lead the team. That is the logic and it seems pretty sound to me. The problem lies not with USA BB's logic but rather with the play of the available young guards. USA BB looked and didn't see the future.

It's important to mention that the comments by Geno and Dawn were during the February 2016 training camp, the last camp before selection of the Olympic team. Neither Diggins nor Sims attended that camp. Both were in the US but said to be "rehabbing injuries." If one or both were healthy enough to play a few months later in Rio, they essentially took themselves out of the running by not attending camp to watch, listen and learn. The young guards who did attend were McBride, Loyd, Vandersloot and Danielle Robinson. USA BB didn't seen the future point guard in either Vandersloot or Robinson and that decision seems pretty sound to me.

The next USA BB training camp will probably be late September so we'll get a look then at the pool of young guards who could make the World Cup team.
 
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IIRC Sims wasn't a big time scorer until her Sr. year at Baylor, after Griner graduated. Diggins may have been a scorer throughout her career at Notre Dame but she was a member of some really good teams that had some balanced scoring. Agree w/ above poster, I'm not convinced at this point that either of those players are bad fits for the NT. I keep harping on it, but if not in '20 then definitely in '24 there are going to need to be some new guards playing for the NT. Maybe Jefferson is one of them, but somebody else needs to fill some slots. Who knows, by '24 maybe Ionescu will be the best guard in the U.S...

Maybe women's basketball is totally different in this regard, but I don't really think so. Pass first PG is kind of a thing of the past for the most part. Most of the best PG are scoring threats. They don't have to be the first option, but they definitely aren't the last option. You can facilitate an offense and still have plenty of scoring opportunities yourself.

Exactly. That is why Mo Jeff was so lethal at UCONN in her junior and senior years, and why she was so highly heralded. Being a great facilitator as a PG in the WNBA is not enough anymore (see Sam Prahalis, Niya Johnson, Samantha Logic, Jude Schimmel, etc.). You have to be a scoring threat as well, or you'll be cut. Not sure why people are making it seem like being a great and reliable scorer makes you incapable of leading a National team...

Steph Curry and Kyrie are not exceptions in the NBA, they are becoming the standard. Westbrook, Thomas, Lillard, Wall, Walker...the list goes on and on. All PGs in the NBA can be prolific scorers when called upon, and the WNBA is following suit.

On and btw, doubt Ionescu will be the top guard in the US by 2024. You're forgetting about Asia Durr...(another prolific scorer with an incredibly high BB IQ :rolleyes:)
 
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Perhaps those 24-27 year old starting PG's in the WNBA should start searching for another country to possibly represent in the 2020 Olympics :oops:




Hmmmmmm .... I dunno about that. you are talking about currently better.... or better in 2020?
Parker is toast. The fact still remains that there are 2 players at her position who are better - EDD & Stew.

Nneka will be a fierce competitor. If the Olympics were 2018, she'd easily make it over Wilson. But since it's 2020 ...

So the consensus is that Stewie is better than Parker now? Are we talking about the same Parker? Candace Parker? I would even argue that EDD has not surpassed Parker either. EDD is a better pure shooter, but that's about it...

I would also argue that EDD can't play the "same position" as Parker. Parker can play 3-5, so can Stew. EDD has not shown the ability to defend or play the 5.
 

CocoHusky

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So the consensus is that Stewie is better than Parker now? Are we talking about the same Parker? Candace Parker? I would even argue that EDD has not surpassed Parker either. EDD is a better pure shooter, but that's about it...
I would also argue that EDD can't play the "same position" as Parker. Parker can play 3-5, so can Stew. EDD has not shown the ability to defend or play the 5.
Consensus is that Stewie and EDD were on the last Olympic team and CP was not. Wait that not consensus, is it?
 

triaddukefan

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So the consensus is that Stewie is better than Parker now? Are we talking about the same Parker? Candace Parker? I would even argue that EDD has not surpassed Parker either. EDD is a better pure shooter, but that's about it...

.

Yes. That is the consensus... On this board at least
 

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Well it's useful to me which is why I restated it. I agree that one or more younger guards should be on the 2018 team and I believe will be on the team. Part of the discussion here has looked back on why younger guards weren't on the 2016 Olympic team and these quotes tell us why that didn't happen.

Well, then I guess we're on the same page, mostly. There was some talk of Diggins and Sims but that was the 2014 team that Sims made but Diggins didn't after a career year. I agree that neither should have made it in 2016 when they missed that camp.

At the time, I quibbled with the decision not to take a younger guard in 2016, but in retrospect I think that was fine. At some point, though, you do have to just pick the best young PG available rather than waiting for someone to walk in the door wearing a sash that reads "Point Guard of the Future!"
 
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USA BB didn't seen the future point guard in either Vandersloot or Robinson and that decision seems pretty sound to me.

Robinson had an Achilles strain during camp (which she eventually surgically corrected). I wouldn't rule her out just yet.

Briann January could be a candidate.
 

nwhoopfan

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On and btw, doubt Ionescu will be the top guard in the US by 2024. You're forgetting about Asia Durr...(another prolific scorer with an incredibly high BB IQ :rolleyes:)

That was sort of tongue in cheek on my part. Ionescu may be equally comfortable playing the 1 or the 2. Hopefully it's not heresy to say I see some similarities between her and Taurasi. Similar size, not exceptional athletes but very smooth and good body control, can get in the lane and get their shots despite not having blazing speed, can be playmakers or scorers. I don't think Ionescu shot a great percentage behind the arc last year but she can certainly hit them. She has a high bball IQ. I keep coming back to the fact she had 3 triple doubles as a freshman. I don't recall anybody ever doing that before. Many players don't have that many during their entire college career. She hit a few game winning shots last year, too. Just a baller. Confident and competitive, too. There will only be one D, but Ionescu will be very interesting to watch as she develops.
 

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A couple of additional thoughts on Team USA and point guards. The team will be heading in to a World Cup in which the host nation, Spain, has a pretty good team. In addition, Team USA will have a new head coach who is not known for her ability to coach dynamic offense. My guess is that Dawn will not want to head in to her first tournament as head coach without at least one point guard with experience on that stage, which is a whole different level of pressure. Although I agree it's time to identify who the next point guard(s) will be, Dawn will want someone who can steady the ship.
 

CocoHusky

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A couple of additional thoughts on Team USA and point guards. The team will be heading in to a World Cup in which the host nation, Spain, has a pretty good team. In addition, Team USA will have a new head coach who is not known for her ability to coach dynamic offense. My guess is that Dawn will not want to head in to her first tournament as head coach without at least one point guard with experience on that stage, which is a whole different level of pressure. Although I agree it's time to identify who the next point guard(s) will be, Dawn will want someone who can steady the ship.
Interesting....do you believe that USA basketball would prioritize World Cup over the Olympics? In other words add guard(s) to World Cup team take your lumps and be ready (better) in 2 years.
 

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Interesting....do you believe that USA basketball would prioritize World Cup over the Olympics? In other words add guard(s) to World Cup team take your lumps and be ready (better) in 2 years.

How would what your suggestion prioritize the World Cup over the Olympics? Your suggestion -- adding guards to the World Cup and taking lumps to be better in 2 years -- would in fact prioritize winning at the Olympics, no?

USA Basketball, at least on the women's side, treats the World Cup and Olympics equally even though the Olympics is obviously the more glamorous and publicized event and brings added pressure. That's why you rarely see the core, elite female players skip the World Cup (formerly World Championships) without a good reason. I don't believe Bird or Taurasi ever missed a World Championship and Catching missed one in 2014 because of injury. Having said that, I do think the World Cup is probably a better tournament to get a young guard or two acclimated to playing on that International stage. Team USA will add young guards for the 2018 World Cup because it's time, perhaps past time.

Just one final thought on my earlier post, I think Sue Bird will play in 2018 if she's healthy and playing well and USA Basketball asks her to play. That's what Sue said in the ESPN story that started this thread. I can see a scenario in which Dawn asks her to play for the reasons I stated in my previous post. The same could be true for Diana.
 
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That was sort of tongue in cheek on my part. Ionescu may be equally comfortable playing the 1 or the 2. Hopefully it's not heresy to say I see some similarities between her and Taurasi. Similar size, not exceptional athletes but very smooth and good body control, can get in the lane and get their shots despite not having blazing speed, can be playmakers or scorers. I don't think Ionescu shot a great percentage behind the arc last year but she can certainly hit them. She has a high bball IQ. I keep coming back to the fact she had 3 triple doubles as a freshman. I don't recall anybody ever doing that before. Many players don't have that many during their entire college career. She hit a few game winning shots last year, too. Just a baller. Confident and competitive, too. There will only be one D, but Ionescu will be very interesting to watch as she develops.

Love Ionescu, and not sure why she's being compared to Durr.
Durr is a straight up SG, while Ionescu is a triple double machine.
 

MilfordHusky

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A couple of additional thoughts on Team USA and point guards. The team will be heading in to a World Cup in which the host nation, Spain, has a pretty good team. In addition, Team USA will have a new head coach who is not known for her ability to coach dynamic offense. My guess is that Dawn will not want to head in to her first tournament as head coach without at least one point guard with experience on that stage, which is a whole different level of pressure. Although I agree it's time to identify who the next point guard(s) will be, Dawn will want someone who can steady the ship.
As you recall, there were folks on the BY who wrote that the Spanish guards were too good for the U.S. and they would kill our guards in 2014. That didn't pan out, but Spain played a good championship game, with the margin of victory roughly equal to Maya's early scoring spurt. I think they played us even for the last 30 minutes. I wouldn't want to have a replay of that game in Spain. The noise in the arena for the Turkish team was deafening. It would be easy for a young player to get rattled in a situation like that.
 

MilfordHusky

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Robinson had an Achilles strain during camp (which she eventually surgically corrected). I wouldn't rule her out just yet.

Briann January could be a candidate.
Briann is tough. I like her. She's not Sue Bird, but I think she should get a look.
 

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