Still great, but overrated athletes

[mjmoney23]

The poster boy for overrated other than individual performances has got to be Carmelo Anthony: the epitome of "me first" stats (points, rebounds), cannot be bothered to play D, not a team player and was considered an amazing player despite the selfishness.

Swanny had a great second life as a pitch man in Miller Lite ads etc....

Me7o is the ultimate role player. His role was to score, that's it. He had a 60 point, 0 assist statline one game. The fact he is politicking to get his jersey retired is a joke. He won 1 playoff series in his tenure. I don't want to hear how he had no help. He couldn't wait to sign in the off season as he was worried about his money (cba was up and it wasn't flush with cash like it was recently) and strong handed a trade which gutted the young core. Yes, none of them became superstars but there were solid role players that would have made the team more competitive. Then we have the jealousy of Jeremy Lin....

 

[Deepster]

The notion that he was just a singles hitter is a bit inflated. Jeter’s lifetime slugging average is higher than Robin Yount, Darrell Evans (who hit over 400 HRs) Gary Carter and many other guys who were thought of as “sluggers” in their prime. And the prototype for the “power hitting” SS, Ripken, is just a few thousandths higher at 447 to Jeter’s 440. I’m not saying Jeter was a power hitter, but he wasn’t Rose or Carew or someone until the last couple of years.

I have a bit of a hard time using the term "slugging" in the conversation of Jeter. Over his career, he averaged 15 HRs a year. Career high of 24 (at age 25). And his last 9-10 years he barely scraped double digits most of them.

And Yount (who played probably half his career in CF averaged 14 HR, 80 RBI).

 

[TheRealKBuks]

I'm assuming it was a joke.

tongue in cheek but many people rate him as the GOAT which he clearly is not, so yeah still over rated

 

[TheRealKBuks]

Laughable. Anyone that says LeBron is not at least 2nd best player all-time (or possibly third to Kareem, perhaps even first) doesn't understand basketball. The man literally took teams with no talent to the NBA championship almost every year he played. Even now at 40 he's one the best players in the league. Hard to overrate the all-time NBA scoring leader, 4x champion, 3 gold medals, and on and on.

Ultimately his legacy is leaving basketball worse off than when he found it. He is a great individual player and yes my post was sarcastic but too many people think he's the GOAT so I would say he qualifies as overrated.

 

[superjohn]

I think you're forgetting about 2018. I'll add that some of those later Heat teams were very beatable once D-Wade dipped. The best thing LeBron had going for him for most of his career was playing in the east.

Nah, 2018 Kevin Love was an all-star and there were other good players on that team they were just badly outgunned by the Warriors. They made a bunch of trades before the deadline orchestrated by Lebron.

Everyone is beatable but all the Heat teams were loaded, Wade and Bosh were all-stars every year and they lured Ray Allen in as a hired gun for the last couple.

 

[Lafayette]

Me7o is the ultimate role player. His role was to score, that's it. He had a 60 point, 0 assist statline one game. The fact he is politicking to get his jersey retired is a joke. He won 1 playoff series in his tenure. I don't want to hear how he had no help. He couldn't wait to sign in the off season as he was worried about his money (cba was up and it wasn't flush with cash like it was recently) and strong handed a trade which gutted the young core. Yes, none of them became superstars but there were solid role players that would have made the team more competitive. Then we have the jealousy of Jeremy Lin....

Which is exactly what this thread is about if his legacy is "ultimate role player" it belies his achievements.

 

[Jaydumo20]

Which is exactly what this thread is about if his legacy is "ultimate role player" it belies his achievements.

Good point. With players like Shaq, harden and melo, id say anybody who is even remotely knowledgeable about sports knows exactly what those guys were/are

 

[Lafayette]

Ultimately his legacy is leaving basketball worse off than when he found it. He is a great individual player and yes my post was sarcastic but too many people think he's the GOAT so I would say he qualifies as overrated.

There is no GOAT of a team sport. MJ is the GOAT of shooting guards, Lebron is the GOAT of power forwards. Honus Wagner is the GOAT of shortstops, etc.

Arguing one person is the GOAT of a team sport has people arguing the wrong point.

 

[J187Money]

Favre is another - great call.

Not only has he ALWAYS been a piece of junk human, but he's never been as great as everyone makes him. He had the Madden/Fox hype machine helping him and he was exciting. Gimme Steve Young all day.

Here is the thing though. The Packers were nearly unwatchable before he took over - and since he never took a game off - every Packers fan knew when they woke up Sunday morning that they had a chance to win / a chance to see something special / or a chance that he might snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. For 16 years.

I was at his final game as a Packer when he threw the pick in OT to lose to the Giants - but that's what you got with him - the good and the bad.

As to him as a person? I don't really care too much about that stuff generally - loved Rodgers as a player but don't care about his personal life either.

I was at Favre's Packer HOF weekend - and the stadium sold out (at $4/ticket) in the blazing heat just so people could see him for 10 minutes. Whatever his faults, he is BELOVED in Wisconsin. And his speech at the Packer HOF dinner - where he shouted out everyone from equipment guys to trainers while talking for 30 minutes without reading from a script - he is not the antichrist that people try and make him out to be. I will be surprised if Rodgers gets the same love when he gets inducted into the Packers HOF.

Better than Steve Young? No. Brady? No. Rodgers? No. But that wasn't the question. Was he overrated? I don't think so - everyone always talked about his flaws when he was playing.

He is a 1 of 1.

 

[Matrim55]

Kobe.

If Ray had been on those Lakers teams instead of Kobe they win 5 titles instead of 3. Better teammate, better spacing, better gravity, way more clutch, and he'd have committed defensively in a way he didn't really at that point in his career.

Never would've blown it up b/c of his ego. Just would've won titles.

 

[Scoe]

Here is the thing though. The Packers were nearly unwatchable before he took over - and since he never took a game off - every Packers fan knew when they woke up Sunday morning that they had a chance to win / a chance to see something special / or a chance that he might snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. For 16 years.

I was at his final game as a Packer when he threw the pick in OT to lose to the Giants - but that's what you got with him - the good and the bad.

As to him as a person? I don't really care too much about that stuff generally - loved Rodgers as a player but don't care about his personal life either.

I was at Favre's Packer HOF weekend - and the stadium sold out (at $4/ticket) in the blazing heat just so people could see him for 10 minutes. Whatever his faults, he is BELOVED in Wisconsin. And his speech at the Packer HOF dinner - where he shouted out everyone from equipment guys to trainers while talking for 30 minutes without reading from a script - he is not the antichrist that people try and make him out to be. I will be surprised if Rodgers gets the same love when he gets inducted into the Packers HOF.

Better than Steve Young? No. Brady? No. Rodgers? No. But that wasn't the question. Was he overrated? I don't think so - everyone always talked about his flaws when he was playing.

He is a 1 of 1.

That's true he elevated GB who wasn't relevant since the Bart Starr days. I watched the Netflix documentary now that was a smear job. Has he made bad off the field decisions no question but then the documentary dramatized him going out to the bars in his playing days. Omg he went out to the bar when he was 26 what a horrible person because no one in their 20s goes out to the bars.

 

[nomar]

Kobe.

My pick as well. Great player. Just not in my top 10. Nowhere near MJ, and LeBron's a much better player as well.

 

[J187Money]

That's true he elevated GB who wasn't relevant since the Bart Starr days. I watched the Netflix documentary now that was a smear job. Has he made bad off the field decisions no question but then the documentary dramatized him going out to the bars in his playing days. Omg he went out to the bar when he was 26 what a horrible person because no one in their 20s goes out to the bars.

The only thing I can say that was 100% a "bad guy" thing is the Jenn Sterger situation with the Jets. The drinking / pills - that happens to all sorts of people.

As to what happened with the money in Mississippi - that is 100% on the politicians who appropriated the money.

And he was wishy washy about retirement. Which was irritating but I think Rodgers' late career behavior was more irritating.

I didn't watch the Netflix thing because I figured it was a hit job. And not really relevant anyway - I never understood why people care so much about the personal lives of athletes.

 

[UCLJ0211]

LeBron James

Was actually going to say this. Of course he is an all-time great, but IMO he will never be the GOAT, as many think he is.

 

[Scoe]

Was actually going to say this. Of course he is an all-time great, but IMO he will never be the GOAT, as many think he is.

If you have to convince someone that someone is the GOAT then they're not. It doesn't need any convincing.

 

[Huskybass]

Don Maynard, Don Hutson and Lance Alworth are top 20 all time in receiving TDs. None of them are as famous as Swan but all 3 were better receivers. I think the acrobatics are responsible for the inflated assessment.

But this is all subjective, and i wasn't alive to see him play so I'm not getting the full picture . Thanks for the input!

Rings bro. And he was an important part of those rings. Great thread though.

 

[AidanFan20]

The poster boy for overrated other than individual performances has got to be Carmelo Anthony: the epitome of "me first" stats (points, rebounds), cannot be bothered to play D, not a team player and was considered an amazing player despite the selfishness.

Swanny had a great second life as a pitch man in Miller Lite ads etc....

Absolutely Carmelo. I saw him play for Oak Hill in HS... He was the epitome of "Gimme the ball and get out of the way!", and "Defense is what you guys are for".

Looked like he was figuring it out at Syracuse, but the development stopped for some reason. He remained heavily ball-dominant and a defensive liability throughout his NBA career... but...

BIG exception, tho... He was the ideal teammate on Team USA. For once, his mindset was "I'm not the only guy on this team that can score". He played D, passed the rock, set screens, took pretty much only "within-the-offense" shots, all the good stuff you need. Basically, he became Team USA's "glue guy"... For, what... Four Olympics?

 

[mjmoney23]

Which is exactly what this thread is about if his legacy is "ultimate role player" it belies his achievements.

That is not how he is perceived. He has always been touted as a superstar

 

[Huskybass]

Michael Vick, Joe Namath, Terry Bradshaw, Conor McGregor, heck even Derek Jeter if you go by "lore vs stats"

I can't give you Jeter. I am a Red Sox fan and have to say that Jeter was superb. Just the way he carried himself let you know he was something special. Rookie of the Year, 14 time All Star, 5 time World Series Champ, .310 lifetime batting average, over 3400 hits, over 1300 rbi, 5 Gold Gloves...super impressive resume if you ask me.

 

[Deepster]

I can't give you Jeter. I am a Red Sox fan and have to say that Jeter was superb. Just the way he carried himself let you know he was something special. Rookie of the Year, 14 time All Star, 5 time World Series Champ, .310 lifetime batting average, over 3400 hits, over 1300 rbi, 5 Gold Gloves...super impressive resume if you ask me.

Fixed.

 

[Scoe]

Jerome Bettis, Big Ben, Troy Aikman and Emmitt Smith I think Michael Irvin was underrated.

 

[Scoe]

Jeter destroying the Mets in a series where he batted .409, the Mets probably had the better team too that year.

 

[boog204]

I have a bit of a hard time using the term "slugging" in the conversation of Jeter. Over his career, he averaged 15 HRs a year. Career high of 24 (at age 25). And his last 9-10 years he barely scraped double digits most of them.

And Yount (who played probably half his career in CF averaged 14 HR, 80 RBI).

Again… you said he was a singles hitter.
Nobody would refer to Yount, Evans, or Gary Carter as singles hitters and Jeter had a higher career slugging percentage even with Jeters last two or three years when his extra base hits waned. Jeter averaged more extra base hits a year than Ripken. I’m never going to say Jeter was a power hitter, but he was far more than a singles hitter.

 

[superjohn]

Fixed.

Do you not factor in rings, intangibles, all-star appearances, silver slugger, gold glove, MVP voting, rookie of the year, all pro, Hall of fame induction etc. for all athletes or just for Jeter?

 

[Deepster]

Do you not factor in rings, intangibles, all-star appearances, silver slugger, gold glove, MVP voting, rookie of the year, all pro, Hall of fame induction etc. for all athletes or just for Jeter?

All athletes.

Yogi Berra has 10 rings and 18 all star appearances. How often do you ever hear about how great he was?
Carl Yazstremski (also one of the most overrated players ever) has 18 all star appearances as well. So what?
Personally? I think the gold glove is flawed, somewhat of a popularity contest in ways and could/should be restructured.
Silver Slugger is voted on by coaches and players. Nothing statistical.
Intangibles? I can go out on a limb and say you have intangibles. It's something used when you can't make a statistical argument.

I'm a numbers guy. I won't sit and nod yes when Joe MessageBoard says "I can just tell he's good".

I do think MVP voting has merit, but I'll throw this one out there and you can comment on it.

Below is Jeter and Michael Young in 2009. Jeter was 3rd in MVP voting, Young was 16th. You see that big a disparity between the two seasons?

Season	Age	Team	G	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS
2009	35	NYY	153	716	634	107	212	27	1	18	66	30	5	72	90	0.334	0.406	0.465	0.871
2009	32	TEX	135	593	541	76	174	36	2	22	68	8	3	47	90	0.322	0.374	0.518	0.892

 

[JohnFSilver]

The Jeter one is said so often and is so silly that he's probably underrated at this point. No, Miguel Tejada wasn't better than Jeter despite juicing his entire career.

Insane how underrated jeter has become. 20 season, 2700 games and 3465 hits, which is six most hits all time. He is an immortal player.

You can't be captain of a dynasty, 4 World Series in 5 years, have the six most hits all time and most since anyone who's career started after 1970, and be overrated.

Also. Should have been a 2 time MVP. Juan Gonzalez. Really?

 

[superjohn]

All athletes.

Yogi Berra has 10 rings and 18 all star appearances. How often do you ever hear about how great he was?
Carl Yazstremski (also one of the most overrated players ever) has 18 all star appearances as well. So what?
Personally? I think the gold glove is flawed, somewhat of a popularity contest in ways and could/should be restructured.
Silver Slugger is voted on by coaches and players. Nothing statistical.
Intangibles? I can go out on a limb and say you have intangibles. It's something used when you can't make a statistical argument.

I'm a numbers guy. I won't sit and nod yes when Joe MessageBoard says "I can just tell he's good".

I do think MVP voting has merit, but I'll throw this one out there and you can comment on it.

Below is Jeter and Michael Young in 2009. Jeter was 3rd in MVP voting, Young was 16th. You see that big a disparity between the two seasons?

Season	Age	Team	G	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS
2009	35	NYY	153	716	634	107	212	27	1	18	66	30	5	72	90	0.334	0.406	0.465	0.871
2009	32	TEX	135	593	541	76	174	36	2	22	68	8	3	47	90	0.322	0.374	0.518	0.892

So you only look at statistics, I find that strange but it's your preference as a sports fan. You've brought up Michael Young several times in relation to Jeter. Michael Young was a great player with a lot of achievements. If you take rings, all-star appearances, MVP voting, silver slugger, gold glove, rookie of the year, longevity, memorable plays in baseball history, intangibles etc. out of it Jeter is significantly better than Michael Young statistically.

 

[TroyHall98]

James Worthy—Benefitted from Magic’s ability to get him the ball on the break and in good spots in half court sets.

 

[superjohn]

Jeter destroying the Mets in a series where he batted .409, the Mets probably had the better team too that year.

There's that whole clutch thing.

 

[CL82]

I can't give you Jeter. I am a Red Sox fan and have to say that Jeter was superb. Just the way he carried himself let you know he was something special. Rookie of the Year, 14 time All Star, 5 time World Series Champ, .310 lifetime batting average, over 3400 hits, over 1300 rbi, 5 Gold Gloves...super impressive resume if you ask me.

I'm inclined to agree. For me it was when he dove for a ball in the stands in a relatively meaningless early season game and came up bloody. I remember thinking to myself I may never like this guy, but I definitely respect him.