Still great, but overrated athletes

[Mr. French]

Spit it out show some courage.

Kobe.

 

[Mr. French]

Brett Favre, fun to watch was a gun slinger but an absolute turnover machine in big games. The Super Bowl he won had a ton of all pros, hall of famers in Reggie White and Leroy Butler on defense. Beat an expansion team in the Panthers and a distracted Pats team with Parcells having 1 foot out the door. The Vikings team was loaded too Favre choked in that game too.

You put Favre on the 2007 and 2011 Giants they don't sniff a Super Bowl go ahead with your laughing emojis, I have watched both of those superbowl runs a bunch of times. Favre absolutely would have turned it over in key spots. 1 turnover against the 2011 Niners defense in a muddy down pour loses that game you cannot tell me Favre wouldn't have turned it over..

Put Eli on those Packer teams he wins 5 superbowls at least 3. The 2009 Vikings team he wins a Super Bowl too.

Favre is another - great call.

Not only has he ALWAYS been a piece of junk human, but he's never been as great as everyone makes him. He had the Madden/Fox hype machine helping him and he was exciting. Gimme Steve Young all day.

 

[boog204]

1) baseball Bo Jackson. Maybe the greatest athlete ever and highlight reel stuff, but there is this consistent narrative that he would have been a HOF baseball player. Yes, he was raw and perhaps would have gotten better, but his WAR shows he was just slightly above average.

2) “Big Game” James Shields was a career 3-6 with a 5.50 era in the postseason. Big game?

3) Reggie Miller had those playoff moments, but was overrated.

4) Troy Aikman

5) Pete Rose

6) Carmelo

7) Posada. And I’m a Yankee fan. He was the king of the passed ball, admitted he didn’t like to block the plate, loved hitting 3 run homers in 7-1 games, and had at least 4 or 5 pitchers, HOF quality guys, request to only pitch to the backup C.

 

[boog204]

Kobe.

I agree in the sense that he retired as a top 10-15 player all time. Phenomenally talented. His tragic death has some putting him in the top 5 and many forgetting how difficult he was in the post Shaq years. Even that great Olympic doc has this cast of doubts of if he’d buy in and not be a problem.

 

[Deepster]

Namath is a weak HoF member, but I don't put that on TD/INT ratios. Back in the old AFL, nobody had great TD/INT ratios. The year the Jets won it all, 7 of the 10 teams in the league threw more INTs than TDs. Of the most successful QBs in the '60s AFL, only Dawson and Griese had positive TD/INT #s. Guys like Jack Kemp, John Hadl, Daryle Lamonica, Babe Parilli... all negative ratios.

Namath's thing was basically going Air Coryell well before Air Coryell was a thing. Was the first to 4K yards passing. He went for big chunks. He had two short white guys (Maynard & Sauer) he turned into leading receivers. He was drafted as a dual threat guy - he could run at Alabama - but had to learn how to be a pocket passer in the pros.

He was a better QB and leader than given credit for today. But under today's criteria, he's nowhere near a HoF. He's kinda like Dave Parker - had a brief time on top, but most of his career is mediocre or worse. If he didn't win that SB or get named MVP for it (and for the league in general), he wouldn't be in Canton.

I don’t necessarily disagree but….if he didn’t predict the SB win (and that’s become a much taller tale over time) and didn’t have the flash in mink coats and pantyhose commercials, no one would remember him for the rest of his on the field career.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Nolan Ryan and Derek Jeter

Was gonna bring up Ryan, classic compiler.

Jeter is hard - one of the all time great leaders, clutch when it mattered and part of a dynasty in a sport very hard to do it in. Not a Yanks fan but he was the core of that team culture and rebuilding that franchise from the ash. If you haven’t watched Bronx is Burning, great watch as to the early 90s Yanks all time worst season. The story around Mel Hall is specially wild.

Horrible take on the Ryan Express. His stats were destroyed by bad teams.

Consider this: Nolan Ryan had 198 career non-win quality starts during his career. He was 0-107 with a 2.27 ERA, 1.166 WHIP, and 9.77 K/9 in those starts.

 

[Chin Diesel]

I'd put Bradshaw there, personally.

That steelers teams is tough to correctly judge. They seemed to have completely captivated every K-12 sports fan from that era. I doubt if even the big red machine or the Jordan Bulls enjoyed that kind of countrywide conversion.

The thing with Bradshaw was he played on astro turf in an era where you could body slam QB's and roughing the passer almost non-existent. I'd like to see what a player like Bradshaw could do in today's two-hand touch football for QB's. And not just Bradshaw but many of the QB's in the 60's and 70's. If they knew they could drop back and have almost no fear of being hit, I think their numbers would look a lot better. As would their health.

 

[Mr. French]

I agree in the sense that he retired as a top 10-15 player all time. Phenomenally talented. His tragic death has some putting him in the top 5 and many forgetting how difficult he was in the post Shaq years. Even that great Olympic doc has this cast of doubts of if he’d buy in and not be a problem.

Even his early career, he wasn’t that good but his potential and star power was already there…he was overrated in 97. By the time he got great, he was a jerk and had Shaq still easily the most important player. Then he gets rid of Shaq and puts up 50 shots a game for multiple years on crappy teams.

He’s a great all-time player but he doesn’t sniff top 10. As you note, people now talk about top 5, top 3, maniacal worker, etc.

Who was the first person to talk about how hard he worked and how obsessed he was? Kobe. Other people said it about Jordan. Kobe told us about Kobe.

 

[Mr. French]

T-Mac is another one.

 

[Jaydumo20]

The thing with Bradshaw was he played on astro turf in an era where you could body slam QB's and roughing the passer almost non-existent. I'd like to see what a player like Bradshaw could do in today's two-hand touch football for QB's. And not just Bradshaw but many of the QB's in the 60's and 70's. If they knew they could drop back and have almost no fear of being hit, I think their numbers would look a lot better. As would their health.

Good point. even guys like Jim Hart, who nobody talks about, would be slinging 450 yds/game. It's impossible to tell but we can guess and I think your guess would be right.

 

[Jaydumo20]

1) baseball Bo Jackson. Maybe the greatest athlete ever and highlight reel stuff, but there is this consistent narrative that he would have been a HOF baseball player. Yes, he was raw and perhaps would have gotten better, but his WAR shows he was just slightly above average.

2) “Big Game” James Shields was a career 3-6 with a 5.50 era in the postseason. Big game?

3) Reggie Miller had those playoff moments, but was overrated.

4) Troy Aikman

5) Pete Rose

6) Carmelo

7) Posada. And I’m a Yankee fan. He was the king of the passed ball, admitted he didn’t like to block the plate, loved hitting 3 run homers in 7-1 games, and had at least 4 or 5 pitchers, HOF quality guys, request to only pitch to the backup C.

Shields. I never understood the nickname. He was great regular season.
I'll come out and say another Ray- aside from his first 3 years, i was never more nervous than when this guy was on the mound....David Price

 

[Jaydumo20]

Horrible take on the Ryan Express. His stats were destroyed by bad teams.

Consider this: Nolan Ryan had 198 career non-win quality starts during his career. He was 0-107 with a 2.27 ERA, 1.166 WHIP, and 9.77 K/9 in those starts.

The Nolan Ryan. No cy-young thing baffles me. I think most people would think he has 2 at least.
I think cy youngs go to guys who come out of nowhere and pop then fade.
Look at the last 20 cy young winners.

 

[slepers]

Scottie pippin
Troy aikman
Aaron rodgers

 

[superjohn]

Laughable. Anyone that says LeBron is not at least 2nd best player all-time (or possibly third to Kareem, perhaps even first) doesn't understand basketball. The man literally took teams with no talent to the NBA championship almost every year he played. Even now at 40 he's one the best players in the league. Hard to overrate the all-time NBA scoring leader, 4x champion, 3 gold medals, and on and on.

Agree with him being top 3 all-time but "The man literally took teams with no talent to the NBA championship almost every year he played" is a wild statement.

He took the 2007 Cavs to the finals, that team hardly had any talent so it's true for that one finals appearance. He had a really rough finals and got swept by the Spurs but getting there was a hell of an accomplishment. The rest of his finals teams had a lot of talent and were basically hand picked by him.

 

[Chin Diesel]

1987. Age 40. Nolan Ryan led the N.L. in strikeouts, E.R.A., and F.I.P. among other things. He posted a WHIP of 1.14. The Astros scored 0 or 1 runs in 1/4 of his starts. His record was 8-16.

 

[superjohn]

1) baseball Bo Jackson. Maybe the greatest athlete ever and highlight reel stuff, but there is this consistent narrative that he would have been a HOF baseball player. Yes, he was raw and perhaps would have gotten better, but his WAR shows he was just slightly above average.

2) “Big Game” James Shields was a career 3-6 with a 5.50 era in the postseason. Big game?

3) Reggie Miller had those playoff moments, but was overrated.

4) Troy Aikman

5) Pete Rose

6) Carmelo

7) Posada. And I’m a Yankee fan. He was the king of the passed ball, admitted he didn’t like to block the plate, loved hitting 3 run homers in 7-1 games, and had at least 4 or 5 pitchers, HOF quality guys, request to only pitch to the backup C.

Posada was the worst baserunner I've ever seen. As a die hard Yankees fan another guy who drove me nuts was Bernie Williams. Bernie was a great hitter but he was putrid in centerfield. He got the worst jumps I've probably ever seen and had a really weak throwing arm. It's insane he won 4 gold gloves.

Jeter wasn't the overrated guy on those teams.

Paul O'Neill was the man.

 

[Lafayette]

1987. Age 40. Nolan Ryan led the N.L. in strikeouts, E.R.A., and F.I.P. among other things. He posted a WHIP of 1.14. The Astros scored 0 or 1 runs in 1/4 of his starts. His record was 8-16.

Yeah this is why he is not overrated. He had little to no run support throughout his career. Wins and Losses are about ERA and run support. You cannot win if your team does not score.

 

[Lafayette]

Posada was the worst baserunner I've ever seen. As a die hard Yankees fan another guy who drove me nuts was Bernie Williams. Bernie was a great hitter but he was putrid in centerfield. He got the worst jumps I've probably ever seen and had a really weak throwing arm. It's insane he won 4 gold gloves.

Jeter wasn't the overrated guy on those teams.

Posada was a catcher. That's like saying our point guard was the worst rebounder you ever saw. I am not trying to be harsh, but the number of catchers who have led the major leagues in steals is zero.

Bernie had no excuse.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Football:

Eric Dickerson - Top 10 all time running back by rushing yards but always had at least 3 pro bowl linemen in front of him until late in his career. An indication of how good the lines were in front of Dickerson is that Greg Bell ran for back to back 1,000 yard seasons on the Rams after they traded Dickerson. Dickerson played in what was essentially full body armor, which led to a lot of fumbles, and he frequently ran out of bounds 2 or 3 yard early so he wouldn't take hits.

Basketball:

Kyrie Irving - head case that sucks defensively

Isiah Thomas - Poor shooter, undersized, and played on a great team. Good player, not an all time great.


Not clear on how Reggie Miller is overrated. He is rated exactly where he belongs.

 

[Jaydumo20]

Football:

Eric Dickerson - Top 10 all time running back by rushing yards but always had at least 3 pro bowl linemen in front of him until late in his career. An indication of how good the lines were in front of Dickerson is that Greg Bell ran for back to back 1,000 yard seasons on the Rams after they traded Dickerson. Dickerson played in what was essentially full body armor, which led to a lot of fumbles, and he frequently ran out of bounds 2 or 3 yard early so he wouldn't take hits.

Basketball:

Kyrie Irving - head case that sucks defensively

Isiah Thomas - Poor shooter, undersized, and played on a great team. Good player, not an all time great.


Not clear on how Reggie Miller is overrated. He is rated exactly where he belongs.

Wow. Greg Bell. Haven't heard that name in years.

I disagree about Isaiah. He was the best player on those teams and he wasn't there to score. He is still #10 on the alltime assist list and 18th in steals. Its hard to call that overrated for a point guard. Jordan called him the 2nd best point guard ever and he hated him more than you do.

 

[StllH8L8ner]

I don’t necessarily disagree but….if he didn’t predict the SB win (and that’s become a much taller tale over time) and didn’t have the flash in mink coats and pantyhose commercials, no one would remember him for the rest of his on the field career.

This was pretty memorable. Lol

 

[boog204]

Posada was the worst baserunner I've ever seen. As a die hard Yankees fan another guy who drove me nuts was Bernie Williams. Bernie was a great hitter but he was putrid in centerfield. He got the worst jumps I've probably ever seen and had a really weak throwing arm. It's insane he won 4 gold gloves.

Jeter wasn't the overrated guy on those teams.

Paul O'Neill was the man.

Loved Bernie, but you are 100% correct. He had to try and run down anything in CF bc he was always a step slow off the bat. And that arm was embarrassing. It’s actually kind of crazy thinking that they won three championships with Posada, Jeter, Knoblauch, and Bernie as your “up the middle” defense. All were horrible in different ways.

 

[Mr. French]

Can I enter another hot take of a beloved player that fits this bill?

Point "God" Chris Paul.

I won't ramble about WHY yet, just want to see if people agree or disagree.

 

[superjohn]

Posada was a catcher. That's like saying our point guard was the worst rebounder you ever saw. I am not trying to be harsh, but the number of catchers who have led the major leagues in steals is zero.

Bernie had no excuse.

It has nothing to do with stolen bases or speed. Posada didn't know how to run the bases, he didn't have the instincts for it. He would get caught between them, he couldn't judge if balls would be caught, he had no real sense of what was happening when he was on the base path.

There were times where the base runner at the base behind him would have to slow up so they wouldn't pass him on the base path.

The total opposite of Jeter. Jeter wasn't a speedster but he was a brilliant base runner.

 

[champs99and04]

Agree with him being top 3 all-time but "The man literally took teams with no talent to the NBA championship almost every year he played" is a wild statement.

He took the 2007 Cavs to the finals, that team hardly had any talent so it's true for that one finals appearance. He had a really rough finals and got swept by the Spurs but getting there was a hell of an accomplishment. The rest of his finals teams had a lot of talent and were basically hand picked by him.

I think you're forgetting about 2018. I'll add that some of those later Heat teams were very beatable once D-Wade dipped. The best thing LeBron had going for him for most of his career was playing in the east.

 

[CTBasketball]

Great call and one that really sparks very strong reactions.

If you want to go down the rathole? Start looking at the primes of Michael Young (Texas SS) and Jeter, then consider how each would have been perceived if they had both switched teams for their entire career.

(I'll also preface any future (predictable) posts that reference All Star appearances (fan popularity/market), World Series (team achievements) and "he's clutch" or any reference to "the flip play" which can't be proven as a factor.)

Anyone who preaches that Derek Jeter was overrated doesn’t know sports, never played sports, or is a stubborn Boston-fan.

 

[Deepster]

Anyone who preaches that Derek Jeter was overrated doesn’t know sports, never played sports, or is a stubborn Boston-fan.

You can make your case why the take is wrong. Just don’t use All Star games, rings or “intangibles”. And keep in mind I’ve already agreed he was a great singles hitter and consistent his entire career.

 

[boog204]

You can make your case why the take is wrong. Just don’t use All Star games, rings or “intangibles”. And keep in mind I’ve already agreed he was a great singles hitter and consistent his entire career.

The notion that he was just a singles hitter is a bit inflated. Jeter’s lifetime slugging average is higher than Robin Yount, Darrell Evans (who hit over 400 HRs) Gary Carter and many other guys who were thought of as “sluggers” in their prime. And the prototype for the “power hitting” SS, Ripken, is just a few thousandths higher at 447 to Jeter’s 440. I’m not saying Jeter was a power hitter, but he wasn’t Rose or Carew or someone until the last couple of years.

 

[pepband99]

Carmelo is the easiest answer here. I believe most of the teams he played for got better upon departure. Thankfully, Cuse is an exception.

Dickerson and Ryan are insane takes. Dickerson was an absolute machine driving pedestrian Rams teams to some level of success.

Ryan was a dominant pitching force for the part of 4 decades. Holds several unbreakable records that are clearly as much greatness (SO, No hitters), as compiling. He deserves something like a "Gordie Howe exception" for length.

 

[dennismenace]

Derek Jeter

Longevity was his calling card on a lot of great teams where he was noticed. He had a glaring strikeout to walk ratio (1840 strikeouts to 1082 walks) for a number one or two lineup hitter. In 20 seasons those strikeouts are close to 100 a year. Willy Randolph was a "flyball hitter" (I used to call him "warning track" Willy because he lacked the power to swing for homeruns and the swings always wound up on or near the warning track. Now contrast this with Dave Winfield who considered himself a "line drive hitter" and always overswung to the point of frequently winding up on the ground. With that size and strength all he had to do was meet the ball in the stadium no less instead of trying to pull everything.
When you watch a lot of guys today including Judge they drive the ball over the fence everywhere because they know that if they put a good swing on it it will go. BTW, I am a lifelong Yankee fan. Just wonder who the hitting coaches were when they were coming up.