Stewie's place in UCWBB History | Page 3 | The Boneyard

Stewie's place in UCWBB History

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Hongster - way to cut through all our drivel! :)

And one caveat on Stewart - she has had an easier path to domination as she has always been able to 'do her thing' on the court, and allow other teammates to lead the team. Skill wise she has been the star, but Bria and Stef and Kelly led the team for her as a freshman, Bria and Stef as a sophomore, and now Morgan and Moriah for her last two years. It is not a luxury afford either Maya or Diana after their sophomore seasons. It may not seem like much, but I think it does make a difference in the demands on a player and their stress level. Stewart hasn't completely ignored this aspect, but except for a few days after Stanford last year, she hasn't had to lead. (KML to a large degree had the same 'do her own thing' freedom.)
 
diggerfoot said:
In Stewart's case she was the key player in beating a team that already beat us three times that year.

I'd have to rank them Taurasi, Stewart and Moore.
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If I understand correctly, you're making a positive out of Stewie not playing as well earlier in the season? :)
 
UcMiami said:
Aside: On TN iconic players - we think of Catchings with the whole package of college, pros, and USA rolled together, but in college Holdsclaw was the real terror of those TN teams I think and would be the one to stand with Parker. (Not unlike Moriah/Breanna)

Not so short after all.:oops:
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Thanks for a great post :)

As a fan, there was always, "Okay, well, Swin on Catchings and it'll be fine." OTOH, there just wasn't that sense with Holdsclaw.
 
Hongster - way to cut through all our drivel! :)

An't nobody got time for that! :)
 
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Hongster said:
Stewie is the undisputed GOAT to ever played for UCWBB.
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Your opinion, not everyone's

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This has been one of the better, more thoughtful threads in a while.

Reading the many detailed comments I began to wonder if we should be asking a different or additional series of questions? Maybe wondering who is the Greatest of All-Time, given the myriad of complicated factors that influence your choice, is really just an exercise in trying to understand chaos theory.

- If you had only one pick, who would you choose to build your team around?

- Who has been the most difficult player to defend game in, game out?

- Who would you want beside you in a foxhole in a life and death situation? (Which converts in a more generic sense to, Who's the guttiest player to ever walk on a court?)

I can only be certain of the answer to the third one.
 
Bonplan - interesting variation:
1. Pick - Maya, DT, Breanna - didn't get it done her senior year, but has everywhere else she has been and her drive is contagious on the practice court as well as in games. (and this is assuming mature players make up the team.
2. Difficult - Breanna, Maya, DT - no substitute for height and length, near run thing with 2nd and 3rd.
3. Foxhole - DT, Maya, Breanna - Yeah well, pretty obvious.
 
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diggerfoot said:
?? I think I understand the point you are trying to make ... see my response to UcMiami ... yet you are bringing up something that does not jive well with your post. Out of the three, Stewart had to face the most terrific opponent of all four times, the senior Diggins squad. The Notre Dame squads that Moore faced were not as opposing as the one Stewart beat when it had to be done. True, Stewart lost three times to them as an inexperienced freshman but won the most important game of all. Stewart was the most important player in helping us beat a better team at the most important time that year. Beating a strong but inferior team four times in a year is not as impressive to me as beating a strong and superior team only once, the one time that matters most. I can see the logic in always being able to beat a strong but inferior team, even four times in a row, as an indicator of greatness. I don't think that compares well with the greatness of beating a superior team when it matters most. Yes, our respective criterion for greatness is subjective, as is all of human endeavor even when using objective numbers to make claims more reliable, but at least it's not as beside the point as debating precisely which squad had better surrounding talent.
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BTW- I love this thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When I posted to you I was just replying to the point that DT had 3 titles and made her players better while Maya had 2 and the one she lost as a sr she scored a ton but didn't make her teammates better. I just wasn't willing to agree with you on that point in a substantial way - but I know because DT is a super passer she can appear to make teammates better vs an elite scorer. But I think great scorers can make players bettertoo. For example, limit Rodman making passes or offensive moves - have him set picks and fly to the basket for offensive rebounds as he plays with the supreme scorer. SO much attention is being put out to defend the supreme scorer, Rodman can more easily "have his way."

I do believe Maya's teammates were better in her sr year vs DT's but Maya having to beat a terrific ND team 4 times- I just don't think that ND was THAT inferior imo to be rolled over 4 straight times in a single season. They "could" be but that I won't hold it directly against Amazing Maya. Even the greatest teams ever in the NBA - it is brutal for them to sweep a very, very, very good opponent. I brought Stewie into it because imo if Stewie from her soph year on had to lead her team to beat ND for three straight years 4 times- no way she can do it. ND is tooooo good -- and tooo well coached to be taken 12 straight times in 3 years.

For me I give slight edge to DT as best - but it is so slight imo between her and Maya. I wouldn't "argue" those that say Maya. Right now imo Stewie is 3rd- because she hasn't finished "school" yet. I'm with you about taking a special support for someone who is the huge cog in an upset like DT did with Texas. I'm also under the belief if you are a big favorite you should not lose in the NCAA's unless injuries or you are playing a team 4 times in one season in which the opposing team is extremely good too etc. I'm also of a very, very minority opinion that regular seasons count too. So Stewie's frosh reg season - it wasn't that great. OFC NCAA Tourney counts more but it doesn't mean Reg. Season doesn't count at all. I have to see what Stewie and MoJeff do the rest of the season before I bump them.

I loved how you brought up the DT and Tennessee game. All three have their own significant calling cards- though I maybe am probably minimizing Stewie's that follows: 1.) With DT it was her strong will with that Tenn game as a case in point. 2.) With Maya is was her dogged relentlessness as the DePaul game was a case in point. 3.) For Stewie it is her shear presence. When she caught the Rutgers player - that presence resonates to the "next game and next opponent." I watched last year's finals again vs ND at the 2:25 mark left in 1st half, a tough kid in Cable goes up for a layup and throws up an airball. When we play- teams pack zone defense and give our shooters from outside any shot they want. Her "presence" is awesome. After this season I might go with her as best. Incomplete for me right now. Further, last year she should not have been awarded Final Four MVP.
 
UcMiami said:
I hope everyone is enjoying this discussion because it really is interesting to me with lots and lots of good points being brought up. I am going to try and keep this a little short, but who knows with so many issues under consideration::rolleyes:

Not so short after all.:oops:
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Loved your post UC! I love these discussions too. I am with digger on who had the stronger team. I think Maya's team was stronger. IMO nobody could compare to Tiff Hayes that was on DT's team. Secondly, Stef was a better cog at the center than Turner was at the pf. IMO Turner was always too small. I know Farris wound up playing some pf - but Turner was a full-time pf. In the close games UCONN played ND prior to Final Four Stef played 40 minutes and 27 minutes. In those two games - imo they are a more well-rounded team than what DT had. I also happen ot believe and months ago I went back-and-forth with someone at great length, imo DT is the greatest sg defensive rebounder I have ever seen. Someone countered that by including players like Parker, EDD and McAughtery because they take outside shots. That is NOT in the spirit of my comment. DT was a sg - or if you want to call her a pg-- and just because some players like EDD take 3's on offense - or maybe Angle played spot minutes as a sg- isn't in the spirit of my comment. DT was able to counter the size factor short-comings of her team at the pf spot and Ann's lack of strength at the sf. SO yes Maya gets kudos for playing center- Dt imo gets kudos for being a bulldog too in the paint.

*** Yet I also believe - Maya's team got burned and in these discussions she is in an unfair position to a point. First is as I stated Geno remarked that he made a move two times in Maya's sr year to start the game off getting Maya going. One game was Stanford. The other ND. Both games UCONN lost. Their only two losses. (Though Sue Bird has said during DT's frosh year in Final Four vs ND - Geno went ballistic at halftime and Bird felt it shell-shocked the entire team - so I don't hit on DT as much for her bad game. I mean Sue Bird - one of the greatest pg's ever doesn't go around casually saying things like this if not some truth.) Second point is that one thing DT had an advantage was the bench in the low post. Maya lost 3 post players within a year - EDD, the transfer kid from the West Coast that went back home to I think New Zealand (?) after initially committing she would come, and Walker. This meant any trouble they had inside - they had no bench. While DT - if BT got into trouble you can play Moore and Crockett. If AS or MC had trouble you had Battle. Once Stef went out, Maya's team became more flawed. Until that time, Maya's team was superior. The refs ended up making one bad call if not two on Stef and she never got into the game.

As for Stewie - imo this is opposite of DT's frosh year. CD recognized that either she or overall the coaching staff made a mistake in how they handled Stewie all year. Thus Geno and CD get kudos for that. Yet as Sue Bird mentioned - Geno doesn't get kudos for how he handled THAT final four. Nor does he get it for Maya's last game. Sometimes the coach makes a mistake. So for me I believe he has. So in this case I take that into consideration. Others may throw it away as irrelevant. All sooo subjective.
 
hoophuskee - CD and Geno have always coached the way they did Stewarts freshman year - regular season is for breaking down their players and teaching - everything they do wrong is emphasized. And then at the end of the year it is all about building confidence and everything they do right is praised.

On DTs 2001 FF - she was struggling in the first half before the locker room explosion so even with the lead she was not contributing much at least in terms of shooting. And then it just got worse.

On Maya's 2011 FF - I don't really think it was coaching - it was just bad play by the team. Fouls (Faris, Dolson, and Dixon all ended with 4, Hayes and Hartley with three apiece) and no one shot well - Hayes, Hartley and Faris ended 8-23 and 1-5 from three. Dolson only got 4 shots, and the defense was bad - ND being the first team in 10 years or something to shoot over 50% and they shot 56% in the second half.

Jessica Moore as a red shirt Sophomore was every bit as good as Dolson the freshman by the way - she is a bit of a forgotten center, but was solid (as her long WNBA career proves.) Dolson became an AA, but she was nowhere near that calibre as an out of shape freshman.

And I love both Turner and Crockett (our miss March) - Turner was the undersized power forward in the mold of Eliot and with the same sort of fire, and Crockett seemed completely disinterested in all those boring regular season games, or even tournament games where we were winning easily, but when the team absolutely needed a little help she went into the phone booth and came out ready to take down those nasty villains! - then back to the dog house for a nice rest. :)

Crockett went 4-5 and Moore was 5-9 a combined 9-14 and a combined 4-6 on FT in that TX semifinal 22 points with 16 rebounds. Dolson and Faris went a combined 4-10 and 3-4 FTs for 11 points and 11 rebounds. Taurasi got a lot of help from the center position, Moore did not - she had to rely on Bria, Lorin, and Tiff who went a combined 7-19 for 16 points and 5 rebounds. And Taurus's other four teammates topped that - Ashley, Barb, Ann, and Maria going 6-20 for 23 points and 9 rebounds.

The talent on Maya's team might have been better, but on one night in their respective years I think it is pretty clear which supporting cast actually preformed better against their respective opponents - and both opponents were formidable teams. Did DT make the difference or was it just what the gods ordained.
 
UcMiami said:
The talent on Maya's team might have been better, but on one night in their respective years I think it is pretty clear which supporting cast actually preformed better against their respective opponents - and both opponents were formidable teams. Did DT make the difference or was it just what the gods ordained.
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The subjective interpretations are limitless. No way to settle it that way. The facts are these: DT's team won. MM's team lost. These are the facts and they are undisputed (Kevin Bacon in "A Few Good Men"). You are what your record says you are (Bill Parcells in real life).
 
UcMiami said:
hoophuskee - CD and Geno have always coached the way they did Stewarts freshman year - regular season is for breaking down their players and teaching - everything they do wrong is emphasized. And then at the end of the year it is all about building confidence and everything they do right is praised.
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UC- I love this.

1—As for Stewie – imo NO – they did NOT coach her same way as all others. They TRIED but then had to doi it differently. I specifically REEMEMBER CD saying they NEEDED to coach Stewie differently when afterwards she was asked why such a quick transformation to being not only good but SUPER. CD CHANGED her approach. Wish I had kept the comments. When I said CD said “MY FAULT” or ‘OUR FAULT” that is NOT how they always say. In fact it is rare or they NEVER say “their fault.” Because it rarely is. With STewie it was. Think about Stewie and how she is in th pantheon. What did she do in her frosh year vs the top tier teams leading up the BET? Players like DT and MM and SB and TC – they showed you something vs elite teams during their frosh years. Why was BS “so late?” Because I REMEMBER CD saying her or the staff or whatever HAD to coach her differently. And CD said she recognized it very late.

2—On DT- sure she has had bad half. Maya Moore had a bad half vs Stanford in the awful played game in 09-10. She was 2-8 from the floor. Second half she was able to be great because the coach probably wasn’t as insane as we heard Bird say that Geno was 00-01.

3—In 2011 maybe oyu are right but I think that is apart of it. Geno has told us what he did. If he said it- I believe him to a point. Sure players didn’t paly well. Coach gets praise when his team does well and when he makes “great coaching decisions/substitution” why can’t ti be the other way? Especially when he SAYS it? In regard sot the stats you mention- weren’t they the same crummy stats vs Stanford? That’s my point. The team didn’t paly well and UCONN lost because it seems Geno changed their style. Some goes to the player but when the coach changes his style vs what he did all year- blame must be on the coach as well.

I get it. You either didn’t hear him sya it or you heard it and believe Geno is just deflecting or Geno just being Geno etc. In this case I think it is somewhat Geno being Geno – sometimes he is brutally honest (sometimes not) – but in this case UCONN had two crummy games and they were the games he SAID he changed the style. I believe him.

4—I don’t agree Moore was as good of a center as Dolson. Dolson had bulk Moore was finesse. The DT teams were small and soft if not for DT. Moore was a soft center in her soph year. With that said she is ok as a pf. Stewie gets criticized for being pushed around even today. And she was a LOT stronger than the soph Moore. But Stewie doesn’t get criticized as a pf. Similar to Moore.

5—Sure BT had fire. So did Farris. I got to go to work. Can’t add more for now. I enjoy this discussion. Just want to say when you spike the stats of Texas vs ND- it’s my point 1st off that Geno probably didn’t change his style. Second Dolson was in foul trouble so her numbers wouldn’t be very good. Third the high percentages have a lot to do with DT. Even if DT is 3rd as you say – she is/was unbelievably awesome. She helped them a great deal achieve those stats.
 
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j66kicker said:
The subjective interpretations are limitless. No way to settle it that way. The facts are these: DT's team won. MM's team lost. These are the facts and they are undisputed (Kevin Bacon in "A Few Good Men"). You are what your record says you are (Bill Parcells in real life).
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If only it were all that simple.
 
Each person has their favorite, and their arguments are built around that. I don't see anyone changing anyone 's mind in this discussion. That said, Maya is my all-time favorite, but I see Breanna affecting a game in more ways than any woman in WCBB history. And both of them were , and are, class acts. That means a lot to me.
 
boontonbomber said:
Each person has their favorite, and their arguments are built around that. I don't see anyone changing anyone 's mind in this discussion. That said, Maya is my all-time favorite, but I see Breanna affecting a game in more ways than any woman in WCBB history. And both of them were , and are, class acts. That means a lot to me.
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I really can't separate all three of them - DT, Maya, and Breanna - and, like part of the reason I love Geno so much is his 'personality', I find I am more interested to hear what DT has to say than either Maya or Breanna. Perhaps she isn't the most decorous, but she is the most fun! They all demanded constant attention from opponents and performed miraculous plays on the court. They all made their teammates jobs immeasurably easier by being the focus of every defense they played against. The were all great passers and scorers and rebounders from their respective positions, and they all created problems for opponents offenses. And they all took what the coaching staff dished out and learned and grew as players and as people through their years at Uconn.

We have been privileged to watch them and cheer for them.

I personally think I rank DT above Maya in the pantheon, but it has nothing to do with 3 vs 2 NCs or the results of any particular game, or their teammates, or their coaches actions or inactions. That is what my posts above have all been about - not knocking down any one, but knocking some cobwebs out of peoples memories, including my own.

(I think when I look back in a few years, I will probably move Breanna to the top of the list and that probably does have to do with what she accomplished her freshman year in the NCAAs because that was breathtaking for someone so young.)
 
Hoophuskee - in response:
2. I was comparing DT to Breanna in semi-finals against the same coach as freshman. Absolutely agree that Geno blew that game as a coach in the halftime locker room - but the two star freshman had very different games. DT went 0-7 in the first half before the locker room and 1-8 in the second half - total 1-15, 0-11 for 4 points with 5 assists, 1 TO, 3 rebounds, 2 steals and 5 fouls - a nightmare. Stewart went 5-8 2-3 in the first half, and in total 10-16 4-5 for 29 points with 1 assist 1 TO, 5 rebounds, 4 blocks, 1 steal and 2 fouls - magical. Anybody can have a bad game any time - Breanna just had hers much earlier in the year - a string of them, DT saved hers for the most important game of that year unfortunately. You sort of expect that from even great freshman, but it does sort of matter, just like major victories are better than the rest of the golf or tennis tournaments - its what champions play for. DT and Maria vowed to each other in the locker room to never experience that feeling again, and they kept their vow - more power to them.

4. Interestingly the real strength of the two teams involved in those games is the reverse - TX strength was its front line, and it was neutralized by Moore and Crockett and Turner, and while Stef had the size advantage as a freshman, Moore had the speed and conditioning and savvy and was able to stay out of foul trouble. ND's strength was its wings/guards - Peters, and Bruszewski, and Achonwa were not that great a threat and were held in check and the damage came from the guards/wings playing against Tiff and Bria and Lorin and Faris.
 
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