Sox focusing on Valentine

[zyron]

My brother in law now in Colorado is a life-long Sox fan (my sister was desperate) and he is pissed at the hiring.

Reports are that a few Red Sox players did not want Valentine as the manager. Guess they are upset he won't let them drink in the clubhouse anymore.

 

[The Viking]

How is Bobby V a great manager? 1117-1072 record. In 15 years his teams won over 90 games twice. In his time in Texas he presided over a team that ingested more horse steroids then the summer season at Saratoga.

Did you see the teams that he took over? The Rangers and Mets were a punchline for jokes when he took over both teams and he did very well all things considered. Take a look at the starting pitchers he had to deal with when he was taking the Mets to the NLCS and the World Series.

This is the best team he's ever had and even his most ardent haters admit he's a very good in-game manager. As a Sox fan I love the reaction from most Yankees fans that this is a horrible move. Remember that as he's managing cartwheels around Girardi's pink braces next year.

Joe Torre also managed a team that ingested its fair share of horse steroids while drinking beer IN THE DUGOUT (Giambi/Clemens) during games. Doesn't mean you lessen Torre's accomplishments because of it.

 

[The Viking]

While it might make the Sox better next year, for instance, long term, that is a disaster move.

I'm pretty sure most people don't consider this a long-term move. He has a history of doing well for 3-4 years and then wearing out his welcome fast.

If you throw in the fact that he may have learned even a tiny bit from past mistakes as he gets older, I'd gladly sign up for a good 2-3 year stretch from him with the talent they have now before they move on to Farrell or whoever else may be out there.

 

[zyron]

As a Sox fan I love the reaction from most Yankees fans that this is a horrible move.

Your new GM didn't want him and the players don't want him. But I am sure the reaction of the Yanks fans will spur the Sox to the World Series.

 

[The Viking]

Your new GM didn't want him and the players don't want him. But I am sure the reaction of the Yanks fans will spur the Sox to the World Series.

I'm more concerned that my new GM wanted Gene Lamont over him. And the fact that some players don't want him almost vindicates the move considering what those same players did during Francona's final months as manager.
Not sure if you're aware of this but the a fans reaction doesn't impact the games. It can still be amusing though.

 

[Deadrody]

If you want to know why people think this is a bad hire, read what Murray Chass has to say about Valentine.

I guess the operative question is, what is the over / under on when he throws one of his players under the bus in the press ? Does he make it all the way through Spring Training ?

If his schtick only included being a disciplinarian, I don't think the players would be as concerned. But since he has a history of going after his players in public, they have a bit more to be worried about.

I also thought it was interesting that Valentine's opponents get their a+ game everytime because he is so disliked.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I saw the Chass article a few days ago as well, very much a personal vendetta and very weird how he preferred to skewer Valentine in print vs in a simple phone conversation.

Your first point about calling players out in the press I agree with 100% and to me that was the one legit criticism of Valentine. I can't tell if his use of the media is via truth or fiction (as claimed by Hundley) but either way its concerning. Not a bad thing for this Red Sox team to be worried about that as a change of pace vs Francona protecting them from everything arguably fostered the subculture of misbehavior. But if Valentine does that via fabrications or does it without talking to the players individually its not going to work long term. Incidentally our own JC does a bit of talking to his players thru the media. It can work if done honestly and with discretion.

The other obvious well-know problem with Bobby V is his self-promotion. There either he has matured, the critical Boston media will teach him or he will ultimately fail ala Rick Pitino as Boston is ill-suited for huge egos.

Last point about other teams playing harder is such crap I'm very surprised you found it interesting. Think about that one. Did you mean interesting because its absurd? Its whining to say teams are playing harder against you. It certainly happens in pro & college sports with teams getting UP for defending champs or big programs (ie Providence plays its best against UConn). But I find it very hard to believe that teams play harder because they dislike the opposing manager. Even harder to believe is that Sox games are going to be tougher because 2012 MLB players hate Bobby Valentine from his NL managing days 9+ years ago.

 

[60'sfan]

While it might make the Sox better next year, for instance, long term, that is a disaster move.

Realistically, how many managers are long term. If the Red Sox can get better in the short term - the next two or three years - until they hire John Farrell, I can live with that.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Then why not just appoint YOURSELF as GM and be done with it ? Like I said, if I was Cherington, that's exactly what I would do, especially since he's the one who will ultimately be left holding the bag when Valentine flames out spectacularly in 2 or 3 years.

I think you are hung up on the titles of GM vs President of Baseball Operations. Its evolved recently, but essentially POBO is the de facto owner. Ie who was the GM when Steinbrenner was running the Yankees? Didn't matter, George was THE BOSS. In the current Sox case, John Henry is the majority owner and a squishy ball of goo, so he defers his power as do the other owners to Larry. But Larry doesn't want to deal with day-to-day stuff of being a GM so he hires a younger guy to do it. Your issue is the same as Theo's problem when he quit this year and when he walked out years ago in a monkey suit, namely the GM isn't in charge. Larry Lucchino is the boss of the Red Sox and it really doesn't matter if Ben Cherington is the GM or the assistant GM.

Incidentally, Theo begrudgingly realized this and that's why he's POBO in Chicago and not GM.

Only negative thing about the manager hiring process is that it took way too long and the Cherington v Lucchino differences became obvious publicly. That's Lucchino's fault because he's ultimately in charge, and arguably he did that on purpose to put Cherington in his place immediately. You'd think that'd be unnecessary if Cherington was witness to all of the Theo-Larry dynamics over Theo's GM tenure. So I'd speculate Larry has an autocratic style that makes him need to publicly & private establish his power. This isn't news, but its a bit off-putting that he needs to publicly demasculate his employees.

Maybe Larry also thinks this helps their dealings with others in that any trade partners know that the GM's word is ok but they'll need Lucchino's signoff before they know they have a deal (sounds bad, but for example would anyone be comfortable making a trade with the Cubs today unless they KNEW it had Theo Epstein's support)?

 

[Deadrody]

Last point about other teams playing harder is such crap I'm very surprised you found it interesting. Think about that one. Did you mean interesting because its absurd? Its whining to say teams are playing harder against you. It certainly happens in pro & college sports with teams getting UP for defending champs or big programs (ie Providence plays its best against UConn). But I find it very hard to believe that teams play harder because they dislike the opposing manager. Even harder to believe is that Sox games are going to be tougher because 2012 MLB players hate Bobby Valentine from his NL managing days 9+ years ago.

interesting in a few ways. Traditionally, yeah, it would be absurd. But over a 162 game schedule, especially for teams out of the race, I have no doubt the games get monotonous. But then, you are talking about playing the Red Sox, not exactly chopped liver.

Interesting if true, and in this story it is allegedly based on quotes from opposing players and coaches.

Interesting that Valentine could elicit that much ill will.

 

[mauconnfan]

Look who had to get his 2 cents worth in yet again. The mouth himself, The Schill. Just can't stfu can he? If he had a list of 50 Bobby V wouldn't have been on it. When he hread the announcement he was sure it "..was a joke.."

He was the biggest AH in baseball so why not carry the tradition on in the media? He worked with the guy for crying outloud at ESPN. Funny shit.............

 

[Dogdeacon]

interesting in a few ways. Traditionally, yeah, it would be absurd. But over a 162 game schedule, especially for teams out of the race, I have no doubt the games get monotonous. But then, you are talking about playing the Red Sox, not exactly chopped liver.

Interesting if true, and in this story it is allegedly based on quotes from opposing players and coaches.

Interesting that Valentine could elicit that much ill will.

Well all Chass had is one of the Mets players claiming other teams played them harder. Then he supported this theory with hearsay that opposing managers hated Valentine. So the 1 whiner + hearsay = baseballs pitched & hit harder and caught with more accuracy = silly delusions of writer getting personal. Its going to be hugely entertaining if BobbyV pisses of our resident curmudgeon the CHB similarly.

Schilling coming out strongly against also shouldn't surprise as remember Tito was brought in to guarantee the Schilling signing. I think somehow his loyalty perversely motitivates him to root for Francona's successor to fail.

 

[Danzz]

Look who had to get his 2 cents worth in yet again. The mouth himself, The Schill. Just can't stfu can he? If he had a list of 50 Bobby V wouldn't have been on it. When he hread the announcement he was sure it "..was a joke.."

He was the biggest AH in baseball so why not carry the tradition on in the media? He worked with the guy for crying outloud at ESPN. Funny ****.............

I appreciate all that Schilling did for the Sox but he should stfu, move to Florida and retire.
I'm not a fan of Valentine and I think the player problems have been exaggerated but maybe he is what is needed for a few years. I never liked managers/head coaches who use the media to slam players ala Parcells. These players are professionals and if they can't motivate themselves, a manager/coach isn't going to do it. All they can do is take a motivated player and make them better.
I'll give Valentine this: he is a smart baseball man who doesn't always play the game by the book and that is refreshing.

 

[sinkhole]

I remember watching a Rays game on ESPN that Bobby V was doing and he became infatuated with the amount of defensive shifting that Maddon's club was doing. He implied that it was a gimmick and that they don't really practice the shift in spring training. Both comments are entirely untrue. Maddon shifts more then any team in baseball based on in depth scouting done by David Martinez and staff. Without having a single gold glove winner the Rays finished with the best team defense in the Al. BV should ask Ortiz what he thinks of the Rays shiftas it has taken a ton of hits from him over the past 4 years. Longoria takes grounders at SS everyday in ST. Bobby V had no idea what he was talking about but wanted to come across as a smart baseball guy. Get used to it.