So, with Geno as #1 WCBB Coach...

[UConnCat]

Now, who sounds mad? LMAO

So nah, if I were mad, I wouldn't be watching. There's too much to love about women's basketball.

We're all feeling your love here. We thank you for that.

 

[JS]

You should be familiar with that, considering her less beat Geno's more.

Twice is enough for your opinion, JAV.

We're not here to indulge in a troll & response syndrome.

 

[JonathanXIV]

You should be familiar with that, considering her less beat Geno's more.

Not too often, since UConn leads the series against ND 37-13. But hey, a 26% winning percentage is certainly something to gloat about.

 

[UConnFranklin]

I'd put Muffet over Kim right now, after this season who knows. If Kim wins back to back titles, she arguably supplants anyone (including Geno) as #1 current coach in the country.

HaHaHaHaHa!! What are you thinking? Of maybe you're not thinking at all!!!

 

[Justavisitor]

Not too often, since UConn leads the series against ND 37-13. But hey, a 26% winning percentage is certainly something to gloat about.

I'm only talking about the match ups in which the talent level at ND improved. This would be Diggins' sophomore season and after. ND has been considerably better after the talent level improved. I always looked at ND as the team that surplanted Rutgers back during the Big East conference days.

What's interesting (or not) is that winning still goes back to roster, more so than the coach. Coaching can definitely make or break a team, but it starts with the talent. Some players would be great regardless of coach. Some players are so much better than the rest that the winning team is the one they play on.

My point about Muffet is that she has beaten Geno when not having the best players. However, Geno has always had the best players when facing ND. If ND wins, it's an upset. If UConn wins, that's supposed to happen.

I remember when TN had the 20 - 0 edge over ND. When Muffet finally got better recruits, she flipped the script. She also didn't need the highest rated recruits to get it done. However, that success began after Summitt fell ill.

I place Muffet at the top because she knows how to make it happen with the roster she has and she doesn't need a number 1 recruit on her team to get it done. Their last title was without a true point guard. That rarely, if ever, happens. Maybe she's just great at evaluating talent and knows how to build a team without a number one.

Both Summitt and Auriemma have had world beaters on their rosters in their most recent titles.

 

[bbsamjj]

I would not say Geno has "always" had the best players when facing ND. In fact, I'd argue both this year and last year, ND has had the better team. All five of ND's starters were draft in the top 19 of the WNBA draft, including #1, #5, and #11.

 

[UConnCat]

I'm only talking about the match ups in which the talent level at ND improved. This would be Diggins' sophomore season and after. ND has been considerably better after the talent level improved. I always looked at ND as the team that surplanted Rutgers back during the Big East conference days.

What's interesting (or not) is that winning still goes back to roster, more so than the coach. Coaching can definitely make or break a team, but it starts with the talent. Some players would be great regardless of coach. Some players are so much better than the rest that the winning team is the one they play on.

My point about Muffet is that she has beaten Geno when not having the best players. However, Geno has always had the best players when facing ND. If ND wins, it's an upset. If UConn wins, that's supposed to happen.

I remember when TN had the 20 - 0 edge over ND. When Muffet finally got better recruits, she flipped the script. She also didn't need the highest rated recruits to get it done. However, that success began after Summitt fell ill.

I place Muffet at the top because she knows how to make it happen with the roster she has and she doesn't need a number 1 recruit on her team to get it done. Their last title was without a true point guard. That rarely, if ever, happens. Maybe she's just great at evaluating talent and knows how to build a team without a number one.

Both Summitt and Auriemma have had world beaters on their rosters in their most recent titles.

UConn had the better team in 2018 and ND won in the FF
ND had the better team in 2019 and beat UConn in the FF.
ND had the better team in 2013 and lost to UConn in the FF (maybe Geno's best coaching job)
ND had the better team in 2011 and beat UConn but then inexplicably lost to Texas A&M in the FF.

It happens. Sometimes players and coaches meet the moment and sometimes they don't.

Part of being a great coach is being able to recruit great players and coach them. Geno has been to more Final Fours, won more national championships (11>>>>>>>>>2), produced more All-Americans and produced more Olympians. But sure.

BTW, I'm still amazed the Lady Vols lost in 2 straight Final Fours to Diana Taurasi and that crew she played with in 2003 and 2004.

 

[Plebe]

I'm only talking about the match ups in which the talent level at ND improved. This would be Diggins' sophomore season and after. ND has been considerably better after the talent level improved. I always looked at ND as the team that surplanted Rutgers back during the Big East conference days.

What's interesting (or not) is that winning still goes back to roster, more so than the coach. Coaching can definitely make or break a team, but it starts with the talent. Some players would be great regardless of coach. Some players are so much better than the rest that the winning team is the one they play on.

My point about Muffet is that she has beaten Geno when not having the best players. However, Geno has always had the best players when facing ND. If ND wins, it's an upset. If UConn wins, that's supposed to happen.

I remember when TN had the 20 - 0 edge over ND. When Muffet finally got better recruits, she flipped the script. She also didn't need the highest rated recruits to get it done. However, that success began after Summitt fell ill.

I place Muffet at the top because she knows how to make it happen with the roster she has and she doesn't need a number 1 recruit on her team to get it done. Their last title was without a true point guard. That rarely, if ever, happens. Maybe she's just great at evaluating talent and knows how to build a team without a number one.

Both Summitt and Auriemma have had world beaters on their rosters in their most recent titles.

It's interesting that despite being at a silver-spoon institution awash in privilege like Notre Dame, it took Muffet so long to consistently field good teams.

Now if she had stayed at Lehigh and built it up into a powerhouse like Geno did at UConn, then I'd be impressed. One of the true testaments to Geno's greatness is how he was able to build from literally nothing at a location like Storrs. That's a level of greatness that Muffet can only be jealous of.

 

[Justavisitor]

UConn had the better team in 2018 and ND won in the FF
ND had the better team in 2019 and beat UConn in the FF.
ND had the better team in 2013 and lost to UConn in the FF (maybe Geno's best coaching job)
ND had the better team in 2011 and beat UConn but then inexplicably lost to Texas A&M in the FF.

It happens. Sometimes players and coaches meet the moment and sometimes they don't.

Part of being a great coach is being able to recruit great players and coach them. Geno has been to more Final Fours, won more national championships (11>>>>>>>>>2), produced more All-Americans and produced more Olympians. But sure.

BTW, I'm still amazed the Lady Vols lost in 2 straight Final Fours to Diana Taurasi and that crew she played with in 2003 and 2004.

Not so sure I agree with those assessments.

UConn had the highest rated recruits in all of those match ups.
2019 - #1 KLS; #1 CW, #3 CD (Notre Dame's top recruit was #2 ranked and often injured B. Turner. Shepherd was #3 to KLS at #1. Notre Dame's best player was in the same class as CD and ranked outside the top 10. Arike was #10.)

2018 - pretty much the same as 2018, but ND did not have Turner.

2013 and 2011 UConn still had the highest rated players. The most brilliant thing about 2013 was that Stewart grew up.


BTW, I'm still amazed that Candace Parker never lost against UConn. (see how that works )

 

[Justavisitor]

It's interesting that despite being at a silver-spoon institution awash in privilege like Notre Dame, it took Muffet so long to consistently field good teams.

Now if she had stayed at Lehigh and built it up into a powerhouse like Geno did at UConn, then I'd be impressed. One of the true testaments to Geno's greatness is how he was able to build from literally nothing at a location like Storrs. That's a level of greatness that Muffet can only be jealous of.

What remains to be seen is how will the loss of Ivey impact the success of ND? Much of their success can be tied back to guards that wanted to learn from her. Maybe we should be discussing Ivey and not Muffet.

In addition to her achievements in player development with such proteges as All-Americans Skylar Diggins, Jewell Loyd, Lindsay Allen and Arike Ogunbowale, Ivey emerged as a rising star on the recruiting trail, with a sharp eye for young up-and-coming talent. In fact, she helped Notre Dame attract top-12 incoming classes in nine of her last 10 years. In her last class, Coach Ivey nabbed No. 6 Samantha Brunelle and No. 18 Anaya Peoples.
What’s more, Ivey displayed brilliant prowess when it came to scouting and in-game strategy. In her last six years alone, she was directly responsible for creating the game plans that led to victories over Duke (12 times), Tennessee (8 times), Florida State (7 times), Connecticut (5 times), Maryland (three times), Louisville (8 times), Syracuse (7 times), UCLA (three times), Baylor (twice), Texas A&M (3 times) and South Carolina, among many others.

 

[diggerfoot]

It's interesting that despite being at a silver-spoon institution awash in privilege like Notre Dame, it took Muffet so long to consistently field good teams.

Now if she had stayed at Lehigh and built it up into a powerhouse like Geno did at UConn, then I'd be impressed. One of the true testaments to Geno's greatness is how he was able to build from literally nothing at a location like Storrs. That's a level of greatness that Muffet can only be jealous of.

Glad to see you bring this up! Though, unfortunately it had to be in response to trolling. There are two things striking about Auriemma's tenure as a coach. The most talked about is the consistent greatness he can get from high level recruits, with the record number of championships as testament. The other is the extent to which he built a program up from nothing, also unprecedented.

Few remember or even knew that the '95 Tennessee team was touted as one of their best collections of talent ever. They were the heavy favorite preseason. As for UConn? They were the team that prompted VanDerveer to remark "We have six Nykesha Sales." She predicted Tennessee to win the championship game after her team was clobbered by UConn, based on her perceptions of both coaching and talent.

Yet UConn won its first championship, culminating the greatest program building feat in history, against a team thought to be one of the greatest collections of talent up until that time. Of course, UConn did indeed have it's own great players, but certainly no one saw Wolters or Rizzotti as player of the year material coming out of high school. Few D I programs even wanted Wolters. You might say the elevation of their games by Auriemma was similar to the elevation of the program. Not even Riley's ascendance to college greatness matched that of Wolters, plus ND's ascendance as a program was remarkably slow, as you mention, given what they had going for them.

So when a UConn fan hears "You have more talent," we can and should hearken back to the fact that Auriemma made something out of nothing better than any other coach in the history of the game. The fact that he no longer can be in a position to do that should not be held against him.

 

[bbsamjj]

Not so sure I agree with those assessments.

UConn had the highest rated recruits in all of those match ups.
2019 - #1 KLS; #1 CW, #3 CD (Notre Dame's top recruit was #2 ranked and often injured B. Turner. Shepherd was #3 to KLS at #1. Notre Dame's best player was in the same class as CD and ranked outside the top 10. Arike was #10.)

2018 - pretty much the same as 2018, but ND did not have Turner.

2013 and 2011 UConn still had the highest rated players. The most brilliant thing about 2013 was that Stewart grew up.


BTW, I'm still amazed that Candace Parker never lost against UConn. (see how that works )

Recruit rankings from one service (Hoopgurlz) is not exactly an accurate way to determine "who had the best talent." There were services that had Ashley Robinson ranked ahead of Diana Taurasi, and Strother ranked ahead of Seimone Augustus. Once their careers began, it was obvious who was the better player. Also being #1 in a weak year is not the same as being #5 in a great year obviously. Plus, players are of different experience levels and have history of injuries.

ND started five seniors this year who were all highly regarded out of high school and had a history of winning in the post season. Sure, CW was ranked slightly ahead of Jackie Young 3 years ago by one service, but Jackie Young was just picked #1 in the WNBA draft as a junior. UConn had comparable talent, but I think ND was the better team.

 

[JonathanXIV]

Not so sure I agree with those assessments.

UConn had the highest rated recruits in all of those match ups.
2019 - #1 KLS; #1 CW, #3 CD (Notre Dame's top recruit was #2 ranked and often injured B. Turner. Shepherd was #3 to KLS at #1. Notre Dame's best player was in the same class as CD and ranked outside the top 10. Arike was #10.)

2018 - pretty much the same as 2018, but ND did not have Turner.

2013 and 2011 UConn still had the highest rated players. The most brilliant thing about 2013 was that Stewart grew up.


BTW, I'm still amazed that Candace Parker never lost against UConn. (see how that works )

One (and there are more than a few) of the problems with your "analysis" of what team has more talent, is that it uses recruit rankings as if they are static. You presume that the ranking remains the same for all four years of a player's career. Even if the rankings are a valid means of measuring the talent of a player, it's certainly plausible that a #1 ranked player as a freshman doesn't perform as well as a lesser ranked player who is a senior. Was Collier the same player as a freshman than she was as a senior? Is anyone?

 

[diggerfoot]

BTW, I'm still amazed that Candace Parker never lost against UConn. (see how that works )

Ironic you should bring that up, seeing how you've defended poor Warlick with attrition and chemistry issues that you alleged should not be held against her.

The Parker years for Tennessee were the leanest recruiting years for UConn since '95. They even had an entire recruiting class of three leave. Their best player on paper was the injured transfer Hunter. There was also at least one chemistry problem, documented in Heart of a Husky.

Ah, but since you are a defender of Warlick, who had even better talent on paper than Auriemma had during those lean years, then I suppose you think Auriemma did a marvelous job of still always making the Regionals and losing to Parker led teams by respectable margins. Respectable margins were something that not even Summitt always managed against UConn.

 

[UConnCat]

Not so sure I agree with those assessments.

UConn had the highest rated recruits in all of those match ups.
2019 - #1 KLS; #1 CW, #3 CD (Notre Dame's top recruit was #2 ranked and often injured B. Turner. Shepherd was #3 to KLS at #1. Notre Dame's best player was in the same class as CD and ranked outside the top 10. Arike was #10.)

2018 - pretty much the same as 2018, but ND did not have Turner.

2013 and 2011 UConn still had the highest rated players. The most brilliant thing about 2013 was that Stewart grew up.


BTW, I'm still amazed that Candace Parker never lost against UConn. (see how that works )

LOL. Rankings. WTH? As you should know, rankings and how players produce in college are two different things. It's about the team. Experience also matters, particularly when it comes to FF games. All 5 of ND starters in 2019 were drafted in the first round. Brianna Turner often injured? She looked okay to me. It was Lou who was coming of a late season fracture in her vertebrae. BTW, Young and Ogunbowale were both drafted ahead of Lou and Napheesa. Rankings, right? Williams was a freshman and Walker a sophomore. You're wrong on 2019.

In 2011 UConn had Maya and a bunch of inexperienced players. Dolson was the starting center and we all remember how she was mocked as overweight and overmatched that season. Hartley, also a freshman, was the starting point guard and not ready for the bright lights. ND was the more experienced and better team once the tournament started and it didn't matter that UConn had Maya. Muffet knew she had the better team by the end of that season.

Forgot 2012. ND beat UConn in OT in the FF semis. The teams were pretty evenly matched except UConn didn't have anyone as good as Skylar Diggins.

In 2013 ND beat UConn 3 straight games in the regular season and BET championship game. ND was the favorite in the FF game and rightly so. Stewart grew up after a very rocky freshman season. She played 7 minutes against Baylor. In the regular season finale against ND Stewie played 40 minutes and made 1 basket.

No one who knows anything about WBB was surprised Parker never lost to UConn. The Huskies weren't very good (no FF in '06 and '07) and Parker and Tenn were really good. Parker had some really good teammates. Taurasi's UConn teams beat Tenn in the Final Four! UConn's PG was Maria Conlon! Barb Turner was the PF!

 

[Plebe]

Not so sure I agree with those assessments.

UConn had the highest rated recruits in all of those match ups.
2019 - #1 KLS; #1 CW, #3 CD (Notre Dame's top recruit was #2 ranked and often injured B. Turner. Shepherd was #3 to KLS at #1. Notre Dame's best player was in the same class as CD and ranked outside the top 10. Arike was #10.)

2018 - pretty much the same as 2018, but ND did not have Turner.

2013 and 2011 UConn still had the highest rated players. The most brilliant thing about 2013 was that Stewart grew up.


BTW, I'm still amazed that Candace Parker never lost against UConn. (see how that works )

So many flaws, so little time. For now, suffice it to say:

One of the surest signs of a feeble argument is one that reverts to a mere tallying of "recruitment rankings" as the beginning, middle and end of the story.

 

[UConnCat]

Recruit rankings from one service (Hoopgurlz) is not exactly an accurate way to determine "who had the best talent." There were services that had Ashley Robinson ranked ahead of Diana Taurasi, and Strother ranked ahead of Seimone Augustus. Once their careers began, it was obvious who was the better player. Also being #1 in a weak year is not the same as being #5 in a great year obviously. Plus, players are of different experience levels and have history of injuries.

ND started five seniors this year who were all highly regarded out of high school and had a history of winning in the post season. Sure, CW was ranked slightly ahead of Jackie Young 3 years ago by one service, but Jackie Young was just picked #1 in the WNBA draft as a junior. UConn had comparable talent, but I think ND was the better team.

Thank you for the reminder on 6-4 Ashley Robinson and her rankings. I think there were times when 5-10 Barb Turner guarded her . . . successfully.

 

[Justavisitor]

So many flaws, so little time. For now, suffice it to say:

One of the surest signs of a feeble argument is one that reverts to a mere tallying of "recruitment rankings" as the beginning, middle and end of the story.

If the question is coaching, you must consider what a coach starts with and what they develop them into. The coach starting with the highest ranked players, typically has less of a hill to climb. Ivey / Muffet have done a great job with the climb and better than the rest. That's my opinion.

Why do you all ask, if you don't want varying opinions?

 

[Justavisitor]

Thank you for the reminder on 6-4 Ashley Robinson and her rankings. I think there were times when 5-10 Barb Turner guarded her . . . successfully.

Kind of like Ann Strother. Some top players never reach their projections. It happens!

 

[Plebe]

If the question is coaching, you must consider what a coach starts with and what they develop them into. The coach starting with the highest ranked players, typically has less of a hill to climb. Ivey / Muffet have done a great job with the climb and better than the rest. That's my opinion.

Why do you all ask, if you don't want varying opinions?

And again, assuming that the "ranking" is a reliable meausure of the size of the hill is a fallacy that an intelligent analysis would avoid.

 

[UConnCat]

Kind of like Ann Strother. Some top players never reach their projections. It happens!

Exactly. So now you agree with us. Our work here is done.

 

[JoePgh]

So, Justavisitor, you seem to think that a coach should be measured solely on what they do with the roster that has somehow been handed to them. As if the coach, in his/her capacity as a recruiter, lacks control over the composition of that roster.

But, of course, recruiting is the single largest component of a college coach's job. It's the only part of the job that Tennessee coaches have been able to do really well for the last 10 years or so, and that has made the LV's a ranked team for nearly that entire period, despite no contribution from the coaches in any other dimension. So when you are comparing coaches, you have to give their relative recruiting success a very high weight in the comparison.

On that basis, Geno has outperformed Muffitt even in the post-Skylar era (the last eight years or so). That is measured by 8 Final Four appearances and 4 NC's, compared to 1 NC and significantly fewer Final Fours for ND.

 

[Justavisitor]

So, Justavisitor, you seem to think that a coach should be measured solely on what they do with the roster that has somehow been handed to them. As if the coach, in his/her capacity as a recruiter, lacks control over the composition of that roster.

But, of course, recruiting is the single largest component of a college coach's job. It's the only part of the job that Tennessee coaches have been able to do really well for the last 10 years or so, and that has made the LV's a ranked team for nearly that entire period, despite no contribution from the coaches in any other dimension. So when you are comparing coaches, you have to give their relative recruiting success a very high weight in the comparison.

On that basis, Geno has outperformed Muffitt even in the post-Skylar era (the last eight years or so). That is measured by 8 Final Four appearances and 4 NC's, compared to 1 NC and significantly fewer Final Fours for ND.

Agree. I have always said he's possibly the best recruiter. It's between he and Pat. Both programs have been highly criticized by other programs with the rich just keep getting richer.

Even in the last 10 years, after Pat, getting the right recruits has been an awful struggle. Holly had 2 awful years of recruiting back to back and it reared it's ugly head in a very visible way the past 2 seasons. Players full of youthful exuberance, but knowing very little about how to win on the college level.

2014 - one player ranked top 10 and one ranked at 30 (#30 transferred)
2015 only 2 recruits with only 1 of them in the top 10. ACL injury and then transfer to the one in the top 10.
2016 no top 100 recruits

 

[bbsamjj]

Thank you for the reminder on 6-4 Ashley Robinson and her rankings. I think there were times when 5-10 Barb Turner guarded her . . . successfully.

This of course was not meant to trash Robinson, whom I believe was hampered by injuries a ton. She did end up playing 11 seasons in the WNBA as a back-up post, a far better pro career than 99% of players.

 

[UConnCat]

This of course was not meant to trash Robinson, whom I believed was hampered by injuries a ton. She did end up playing 11 seasons in the WNBA as a back-up post, a far better pro career than 99% of players.

Very true. I always liked her. Known as an outstanding teammate.

 

[DefenseBB]

I believe Kim needs to win 5 championships in a row to claim she is at the top of her profession over anyone else. Maybe throw in a World Championship and Olympic Gold too.

My take is “Top” means grouping, not “the best” so I think many are now coming around to the view Kim has shown skills to recruit, win, coach and win in big games. There are only a handful who have and continue to do that. I have been busy with work but I will look at Pat vs. Kim in Conference titles, win percentage, rankings vs. NCAAT success and a few others to see how they compare. What skews the data for us is Geno’s Unattainable Championships, consecutive Final Fours and his record in Championship games. We are jaded against any and all others. Take him out of the equation and in a few years maybe MM or Kim replace Pat as #2 all time. Geno helps Pat’s legacy (despite VolNation biases) maybe more so than it should. Pat’s early years were not nearly as competitive an environment as it is now. If Kim wins 5 titles in this new era of sports, would that not be as great as Pat’s 8? Maybe, maybe not but it is debatable.

 

[triaddukefan]

 

[Gamecockfan77]

I totally disagree with your assessment of Dawn. She had one great class (before 2019) and it was rated No.2 behind a UCLA team that never lived up to it's billing. Dawn has had Final Fours based on the one year and a National Championship that had transfers to come in and blend with remains of that class. She had several Top 10-25 classes but her record actually matched or exceeded the talent she brought in. I think she has proved that she can coach Final Four teams with mix-matched combinations of players. I won't disagree with your rankings...just your assessment of Staley.

I don't think Staley has had anything like the consistent talent level of Stanford, Baylor or Notre Dame yet.

I think she jumped into that national scene without a great deal of elite talent.

The first Final Four team finished a bucket short of the Final with glaring offensive holes.

The National Title team is the only squad she had that was really loaded at every position.

It will be interesting to see what she does with this big incoming class.