So everyone who still thinks basketball matters...

[upstater]

I'm sure they could. But given their current behavior, do you really think that if they could make their members an extra $25 bucks they wouldn't give it a go?

Good point.

 

[Heston]

ESPN to ACC: "Add two schools and we'll increase your contract by $x".

ACC: "OK, we're adding two basketball schools".

I said it mattered. I didn't say it was the driving force. So you admitted in your own post that I was right.

No expansion without football. I don't think it was a coincidence that Pitt and Syracuse have the longest and best histories in football of any Big East schools. If BBall mattered to any meaningful degree, why did they pass on Uconn? If Bball mattered to any meaningful degree, what Flipper said about Uconn would not have mattered to the other ACC schools. Are we really debating whether or not this all about football? Why is the Big 12 taking TCU and WV? Why is the Big East courting a school in Idaho?

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

I think there is something to this BUT people should be wary of messing with the march madness mojo. BCS championship game ratings are in line with Final 4 ratings. They stand at 15 ratings points typically.

In other words, the NCAA bball tourney is wildly popular ratings-wise. I think there's a chance that the BCS conferences could screw it up badly if they ran it.

The NCAA tournament also provides CBS significantly more content than bowl games, and provides them content during times with people otherwise would very likely not be watching TV in addition to during primetime. If you take the sum total of people who watch all of the college bowl games combined and all of the NCAA tournament games combined, the tournament wins in a landslide with there, of course, being lots of overlapping viewers in each category.

Also, the NCAA tournament has virtually no competition for viewers in other sports, March is a huge lull period for professional sports with the NBA and NHL not commanding many viewers to begin with, and only on the verge of the playoff race, baseball being in spring training, and the NFL far removed from the Super Bowl, whereas the bowls have to compete with the holidays, and the NFL playoff race. Of course this doesn't affect the major BCS bowl games, but as far as the lesser ones are concerned, it is a factor in ratings.

 

[Mr. Hand]

No expansion without football. I don't think it was a coincidence that Pitt and Syracuse have the longest and best histories in football of any ACC schools. If BBall mattered to any meaningful degree, why did they pass on Uconn? If Bball mattered to any meaningful degree, what Flipper said about Uconn would not have mattered to the other ACC schools. Are we really debating whether or not this all about football? Why is the Big 12 taking TCU and WV? Why is the Big East courting a school in Idaho?

Why didn't the ACC take West Virginia, clearly the best football property in the Big East?

/devil's advocate

 

[businesslawyer]

Why didn't the ACC take West Virginia, clearly the best football property in the Big East?

/devil's advocate

This "debate" is really more about semantics than substance. Waylon is trying to limit the term "football" to on the field football performance. Others are using the term "football" to mean who brings the most football revenue, based on performance, prestige and markets.

Obviously, decisions are being made primarily based upon what drives football revenues, but those decisions are a lot more complex than just taking the team with the best on the field performance the last few years.

 

[Mr. Hand]

Obviously, decisions are being made primarily based upon what drives football revenues, but those decisions are a lot more complex than just taking the team with the best on the field performance the last few years.

I agree. I would elaborate by adding that the particular mix of what is important changes dramatically depending on the conference, and depending on the school even.

 

[freescooter]

Did you just call Pitt, Cuse, and WVU also-ran basketball programs?

What has Pitt ever won except the record for gagging in the post season? And I really don't get the Syracuse is a great line? Compared to what? That school has managed to ride Carmelo Anthony's back not only to their only national championship but to a hall of fame slot for Boeheim and now a soft landing in the ACC. Syracuse is Maryland with a coach who doesn't sweat as much. West Virginia is another nice program that has exactly 1 final four in the modern era. 1959 doesn't really count. They are all good programs but let's be honest. There are 50 programs that can be interchanged with all 3.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Nelsonmuntz,

Surely you don't think that FSU and Oklahoma were "rejected" because they don't have top basketball programs.

If that's not the stupidest argument ever then I don't what is.

What's the common element among the latest conference movers? Some have very good basketball teams, but they are unthreatening football powers. They are uncontroversial and don't threaten the status quo all that much.

If anything the PAC-12 membership didn't want thr four package deal, because they didn't want LHN and they knew that most of the schools in their conference would have been instantly outclassed.

FSU blackballed by the SEC? No shocker there really. Who do you think blackballed them?

I can't believe that someone has actually latched on to BLawyer's "good but not too good" argument.

If "good but not too good" is the standard, UConn should be in spectacular shape. UConn football is the definition of "good but not too good".

Driving factors of expansion:

1) Markets
2) Markets
3) Markets
4) quality football
5) quality basketball - can move to #4 depending on the league

 

[nelsonmuntz]

It matters so much that three also rans are leaving for new secure homes while the best program in the country over the last 15 years is left hanging on for dear life...And last year, when it looked like the B-12 would implode, one of the sport's blue bloods looked like it would be left by the wayside...I don't advocate dropping basketball but it is important to relaize that it is only marginally more valuable than soccer in the current environment.

Three of the first four programs out the door in the Big East may be 3 of the 4 best basketball programs. Pitt and Syracuse are gone and Louisville is in a cage match with WVU for Big 12 #10. UConn getting turned down was the same as FSU getting blackballed to the SEC. A regional program viewed us as competitive. Markets.

Interestingly I would have thought that BCU would consider Syracuse more competitive since both schools are populated by mediocre, pretentious, douches whose parents are willing to spend 2.5x what they could get for essentially the same education at any of the 25 best public universities. The primary difference between the two schools is that Syracuse women are better looking and sluttier.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

What has Pitt ever won except the record for gagging in the post season? And I really don't get the Syracuse is a great line? Compared to what? That school has managed to ride Carmelo Anthony's back not only to their only national championship but to a hall of fame slot for Boeheim and now a soft landing in the ACC. Syracuse is Maryland with a coach who doesn't sweat as much. West Virginia is another nice program that has exactly 1 final four in the modern era. 1959 doesn't really count. They are all good programs but let's be honest. There are 50 programs that can be interchanged with all 3.

You just jumped the shark.

 

[HuskyHawk]

What has Pitt ever won except the record for gagging in the post season? And I really don't get the Syracuse is a great line? Compared to what? That school has managed to ride Carmelo Anthony's back not only to their only national championship but to a hall of fame slot for Boeheim and now a soft landing in the ACC. Syracuse is Maryland with a coach who doesn't sweat as much. West Virginia is another nice program that has exactly 1 final four in the modern era. 1959 doesn't really count. They are all good programs but let's be honest. There are 50 programs that can be interchanged with all 3.

Ack. They win "games". Winning championships is nearly irrelevant. Pitt has had a consistent to 25 basketball team for many years. 10 straight trips to the NCAA tournament, a record our Huskies cannot match. Yes they underperform in the tournament. Who cares? There are certainly not 50 comparable programs.

Multiple publications consistently place Pitt among the top programs in football and basketball combined. UConn rates well on this scale as well.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

What has Pitt ever won except the record for gagging in the post season? And I really don't get the Syracuse is a great line? Compared to what? That school has managed to ride Carmelo Anthony's back not only to their only national championship but to a hall of fame slot for Boeheim and now a soft landing in the ACC. Syracuse is Maryland with a coach who doesn't sweat as much. West Virginia is another nice program that has exactly 1 final four in the modern era. 1959 doesn't really count. They are all good programs but let's be honest. There are 50 programs that can be interchanged with all 3.

You just made me agree with Waylon. You're nuts.

 

[businesslawyer]

Interestingly I would have thought that BCU would consider Syracuse more competitive since both schools are populated by mediocre, pretentious, douches whose parents are willing to spend 2.5x what they could get for essentially the same education at any of the 25 best public universities. The primary difference between the two schools is that Syracuse women are better looking and sluttier.

I beg to differ. Better looking is a secondary difference. Sluttier is a primary difference.

 

[Druken Friar]

Three of the first four programs out the door in the Big East may be 3 of the 4 best basketball programs. Pitt and Syracuse are gone and Louisville is in a cage match with WVU for Big 12 #10. UConn getting turned down was the same as FSU getting blackballed to the SEC. A regional program viewed us as competitive. Markets.

Interestingly I would have thought that BCU would consider Syracuse more competitive since both schools are populated by mediocre, pretentious, douches whose parents are willing to spend 2.5x what they could get for essentially the same education at any of the 25 best public universities. The primary difference between the two schools is that Syracuse women are better looking and sluttier.

Did someone log in as you? I don't think I've seen you write such things before. Shocking stuff.

 

[The Funster]

If anyone has even spent a day of winter in Syracuse they'd understand why the women are sluttier...

 

[Druken Friar]

I should have gone to Syracuse, damm.

 

[tzznandrew]

What has Pitt ever won except the record for gagging in the post season? And I really don't get the Syracuse is a great line? Compared to what? That school has managed to ride Carmelo Anthony's back not only to their only national championship but to a hall of fame slot for Boeheim and now a soft landing in the ACC. Syracuse is Maryland with a coach who doesn't sweat as much. West Virginia is another nice program that has exactly 1 final four in the modern era. 1959 doesn't really count. They are all good programs but let's be honest. There are 50 programs that can be interchanged with all 3.

I'll bite.

Give me 15 programs better than or interchangeable with Syracuse in the modern era.

 

[Druken Friar]

Syracuse, 1987,1996,2003 in the final four, runner up 1987,1996, champs 2003. Sweet 16, 1979, 80,84,87,89,90,94,96,98,2000,03,04,09,10. One of the elite basketball programs in the country.

Who's better? Jim Boeheim 856-301 (.740). Since he's been at Syracuse 2 "bad " seasons, 1981-82 they went 16-13, and 1996-97 they went 19-13, every other year 20 wins or more. Never had a losing season. Lead the conference in attendance every year. Irreplaceable to the basketball side.

 

[ctchamps]

Unfortunately for the sport, as long as the NCAA negotiates the contract for television rights for the NCAA Tournament, and then keeps the lion share for itself, college basketball will always be a distant 2nd to college football in university revenue.

This is more important than being given credit for. The power house football schools preempted the NCAA and basically divided revenues amongst 25% of the universities. The power house basket ball schools did not attempt to create a similar entity. Revenues generated by basket ball are divided amongst a wider field of universities, thus reducing the leverage the power universities in basket ball have in dictating terms with the media. It would have been interesting if the basket ball schools that were perennial powers created their own version of the BCS instead of the NCAA format.

 

[freescooter]

College basketball at the highest levels isn't about regular season. If you are playing at a national level not a living soul on this earth cares if you win 25 games in a season. NO-BOD-EE! Haven't since the NCAA tourney went to 64 teams. If that is what you want to brag about, watch the MAAC or the NEC. Twenty-five wins is a big deal there. What matters is what you do come March. Pitt has done squat. West Virginia has had as many final four runs in the modern era as, oh, George Mason. There next one will make them equal to Oklahoma State. Syracuse at least has a title to its name. As I said, they rode Carmelo as far as they can ride him. Boeheim rode him all the way to the Hall of Fame. Final Fours in 1996 and especially 1987 are about as relevent as West Virginia's 1959 Final Four. And with the exception of the 3 Final Fours in 35 years, the Orange have never been past the Sweet 16. I guess we have a different definition of "elite."

 

[willie99]

raise your hand...

matters to me

ever watch March Madness? it matters

 

[HuskyHawk]

College basketball at the highest levels isn't about regular season. If you are playing at a national level not a living soul on this earth cares if you win 25 games in a season. NO-BOD-EE! Haven't since the NCAA tourney went to 64 teams. If that is what you want to brag about, watch the MAAC or the NEC. Twenty-five wins is a big deal there. What matters is what you do come March. Pitt has done squat. West Virginia has had as many final four runs in the modern era as, oh, George Mason. There next one will make them equal to Oklahoma State. Syracuse at least has a title to its name. As I said, they rode Carmelo as far as they can ride him. Boeheim rode him all the way to the Hall of Fame. Final Fours in 1996 and especially 1987 are about as relevent as West Virginia's 1959 Final Four. And with the exception of the 3 Final Fours in 35 years, the Orange have never been past the Sweet 16. I guess we have a different definition of "elite."

I completely disagree. It's about consistently getting into the tournament, which is about the regular season. Any team that is almost always in the tournament, and gets to the sweet 16 or beyond with some regularity, is an elite team. Take a look. Very few teams can make this claim over long periods of time. Teams that make infrequent but deep runs, like Oklahoma State behind "Big Country", are quickly forgotten. Nobody forgets Syracuse. I'd say they are top ten for instant recognition as a basketball power. Consistent success over time is what matters, not final fours.

 

[Druken Friar]

College basketball at the highest levels isn't about regular season. If you are playing at a national level not a living soul on this earth cares if you win 25 games in a season. NO-BOD-EE! Haven't since the NCAA tourney went to 64 teams. If that is what you want to brag about, watch the MAAC or the NEC. Twenty-five wins is a big deal there. What matters is what you do come March. Pitt has done squat. West Virginia has had as many final four runs in the modern era as, oh, George Mason. There next one will make them equal to Oklahoma State. Syracuse at least has a title to its name. As I said, they rode Carmelo as far as they can ride him. Boeheim rode him all the way to the Hall of Fame. Final Fours in 1996 and especially 1987 are about as relevent as West Virginia's 1959 Final Four. And with the exception of the 3 Final Fours in 35 years, the Orange have never been past the Sweet 16. I guess we have a different definition of "elite."

Common on, this is ridiculous, they are easily elite by any definition. They're ranked 5th in the preseason polls. One of the few Big East teams with a sizable edge over UConn head to head in basketball.

 

[Excalibur]

Common on, this is ridiculous, they are easily elite by any definition. They're ranked 5th in the preseason polls. One of the few Big East teams with a sizable edge over UConn head to head in basketball.

Such a deliberate attempt to tweak us that I thought better of responding further . . . .

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

College basketball at the highest levels isn't about regular season. If you are playing at a national level not a living soul on this earth cares if you win 25 games in a season. NO-BOD-EE! Haven't since the NCAA tourney went to 64 teams. If that is what you want to brag about, watch the MAAC or the NEC. Twenty-five wins is a big deal there. What matters is what you do come March. Pitt has done squat. West Virginia has had as many final four runs in the modern era as, oh, George Mason. There next one will make them equal to Oklahoma State. Syracuse at least has a title to its name. As I said, they rode Carmelo as far as they can ride him. Boeheim rode him all the way to the Hall of Fame. Final Fours in 1996 and especially 1987 are about as relevent as West Virginia's 1959 Final Four. And with the exception of the 3 Final Fours in 35 years, the Orange have never been past the Sweet 16. I guess we have a different definition of "elite."

I really still want to know who these 50 interchangeable programs are, because I thought about it and got to a list of about 10 then got stumped.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

Common on, this is ridiculous, they are easily elite by any definition. They're ranked 5th in the preseason polls. One of the few Big East teams with a sizable edge over UConn head to head in basketball.

You were right up until the last sentence. Two fewer banners /= sizeable edge.

 

[Druken Friar]

I'm not trying to tweak anyone, I just acknowledge they have been good for a long time. Last I checked, head to head, it was 50-36 in favor of the Orangemen. Whoever has been at the top, Georgetown, Villanova, Pitt, UConn, Louisville, etc.. Syracuse is always in the mix.

To suggest that UConn is more elite because they won the tourney last season is also ridiculous. Is UConn more elite than Kentucky? Kentucky hasn't won a national championship since 1998. Or is Florida more elite than UConn? They won back to back championships in 2006 and 2007. Or is UCLA still an elite program? These kinds of comparisons are subjective.

 

[UConniki]

I'm not trying to tweak anyone, I just acknowledge they have been good for a long time. Last I checked, head to head, it was 50-36 in favor of the Orangemen. Whoever has been at the top, Georgetown, Villanova, Pitt, UConn, Louisville, etc.. Syracuse is always in the mix.

To suggest that UConn is more elite because they won the tourney last season is also ridiculous. Is UConn more elite than Kentucky? Kentucky hasn't won a national championship since 1998. Or is Florida more elite than UConn? They won back to back championships in 2006 and 2007. Or is UCLA still an elite program? These kinds of comparisons are subjective.

How many of those loses to syr were after Jc came to Uconn?

 

[ConnHuskBask]

To suggest that UConn is more elite because they won the tourney last season is also ridiculous. Is UConn more elite than Kentucky? Kentucky hasn't won a national championship since 1998. Or is Florida more elite than UConn? They won back to back championships in 2006 and 2007. Or is UCLA still an elite program? These kinds of comparisons are subjective.

How about taking a look at the numbers then.

National Championships 3 - 1

Final Fours 4 - 4
Elite 8s 10 - 7 (only 2 since 1990!)
Sweet 16s 16 - 19
Big East Regular Season Titles 10 - 8
Big East Championship Titles 7 - 5

If you can't look at and say which is the better program you're just either a Syracuse fan or a moron (not mutually exclusive).

 

[TRest]

Ack. They win "games". Winning championships is nearly irrelevant. Pitt has had a consistent to 25 basketball team for many years. 10 straight trips to the NCAA tournament, a record our Huskies cannot match. Yes they underperform in the tournament. Who cares? There are certainly not 50 comparable programs.

Multiple publications consistently place Pitt among the top programs in football and basketball combined. UConn rates well on this scale as well.

Pitt basketball may also be viewed as having some potential in the future, with a younger coach and newer facilities. I know there is plenty of doubt, even on our board, about a future minus JC.