So everyone who still thinks basketball matters...

[upstater]

It matters so much that three also rans are leaving for new secure homes while the best program in the country over the last 15 years is left hanging on for dear life...And last year, when it looked like the B-12 would implode, one of the sport's blue bloods looked like it would be left by the wayside...I don't advocate dropping basketball but it is important to relaize that it is only marginally more valuable than soccer in the current environment.

If every league were the ACC, you wouldn't have written this. Basketball matters to one league: the ACC.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

And the sum total of their last 15 years together postseason games and national championships is 1? Sure they're better than most of the ACC brethren but we are the #1-3 best men's program for the last 12 years and the #1 women's programs. So yes brass ones, they are also rans compared to UConn. Not getting in a cat fight here but he's comparing them to UConn.

And their record compared to ours in the Olympic sports? We have one of the most if not the most successful across the board set of teams in the country.

I'm not comparing them to us, of course our program is more successful than all three of them put together, but we're also one of the best, as you note. My point is, to call them also-ran basketball programs is wildly inaccurate. SU and Pitt have been consistently among the best programs in the country over the last 15 years, with WVU seeing a significant increase in success under Beilein (sp?) and even more success under Huggins.

The point here being, for the ACC, SU and Pitt were more than sufficient in terms of basketball success to appease the other schools in the league who are basketball-mined, namely the NC schools and MD. While taking us would've increased their overall basketball profile more, SU and Pitt were more than good enough to satisfy them.

 

[Druken Friar]

I ehat the SBC. Not allowed to say hateful things you know.

 

[upstater]

3. But here is the #1 unmentioned reason why college hoops is being so ignored as compared to college football -- because the value of the football product is overwhelmingly in the regular season, with revenues controlled by the conferences, while the value of the basketball product is overwhelmingly in the postseason, with the revenues controlled by the NCAA.

Football would not be so overwhelmingly driving the bus if we either (i) eliminated the NCAA tourney, and had a BCS type system where you had to win your conference to go to the dance, or (ii) we had a playoff in football with broad participation and the NCAA running it. Said overwhelmingly, it is not that basketball doesn't matter -- it's that the NCAA, and not the conferences, control its value.

PS -- And here I thought I was being brilliant, while two other posters made the same point simultaneously. Well, I'll settle for being correct.

I think there is something to this BUT people should be wary of messing with the march madness mojo. BCS championship game ratings are in line with Final 4 ratings. They stand at 15 ratings points typically.

In other words, the NCAA bball tourney is wildly popular ratings-wise. I think there's a chance that the BCS conferences could screw it up badly if they ran it.

 

[businesslawyer]

I think there is something to this BUT people should be wary of messing with the march madness mojo. BCS championship game ratings are in line with Final 4 ratings. They stand at 15 ratings points typically.

In other words, the NCAA bball tourney is wildly popular ratings-wise. I think there's a chance that the BCS conferences could screw it up badly if they ran it.

I'm sure they could. But given their current behavior, do you really think that if they could make their members an extra $25 bucks they wouldn't give it a go?

 

[upstater]

I'm sure they could. But given their current behavior, do you really think that if they could make their members an extra $25 bucks they wouldn't give it a go?

Good point.

 

[Heston]

ESPN to ACC: "Add two schools and we'll increase your contract by $x".

ACC: "OK, we're adding two basketball schools".

I said it mattered. I didn't say it was the driving force. So you admitted in your own post that I was right.

No expansion without football. I don't think it was a coincidence that Pitt and Syracuse have the longest and best histories in football of any Big East schools. If BBall mattered to any meaningful degree, why did they pass on Uconn? If Bball mattered to any meaningful degree, what Flipper said about Uconn would not have mattered to the other ACC schools. Are we really debating whether or not this all about football? Why is the Big 12 taking TCU and WV? Why is the Big East courting a school in Idaho?

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

I think there is something to this BUT people should be wary of messing with the march madness mojo. BCS championship game ratings are in line with Final 4 ratings. They stand at 15 ratings points typically.

In other words, the NCAA bball tourney is wildly popular ratings-wise. I think there's a chance that the BCS conferences could screw it up badly if they ran it.

The NCAA tournament also provides CBS significantly more content than bowl games, and provides them content during times with people otherwise would very likely not be watching TV in addition to during primetime. If you take the sum total of people who watch all of the college bowl games combined and all of the NCAA tournament games combined, the tournament wins in a landslide with there, of course, being lots of overlapping viewers in each category.

Also, the NCAA tournament has virtually no competition for viewers in other sports, March is a huge lull period for professional sports with the NBA and NHL not commanding many viewers to begin with, and only on the verge of the playoff race, baseball being in spring training, and the NFL far removed from the Super Bowl, whereas the bowls have to compete with the holidays, and the NFL playoff race. Of course this doesn't affect the major BCS bowl games, but as far as the lesser ones are concerned, it is a factor in ratings.

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

No expansion without football. I don't think it was a coincidence that Pitt and Syracuse have the longest and best histories in football of any ACC schools. If BBall mattered to any meaningful degree, why did they pass on Uconn? If Bball mattered to any meaningful degree, what Flipper said about Uconn would not have mattered to the other ACC schools. Are we really debating whether or not this all about football? Why is the Big 12 taking TCU and WV? Why is the Big East courting a school in Idaho?

Why didn't the ACC take West Virginia, clearly the best football property in the Big East?

/devil's advocate

 

[businesslawyer]

Why didn't the ACC take West Virginia, clearly the best football property in the Big East?

/devil's advocate

This "debate" is really more about semantics than substance. Waylon is trying to limit the term "football" to on the field football performance. Others are using the term "football" to mean who brings the most football revenue, based on performance, prestige and markets.

Obviously, decisions are being made primarily based upon what drives football revenues, but those decisions are a lot more complex than just taking the team with the best on the field performance the last few years.

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

Obviously, decisions are being made primarily based upon what drives football revenues, but those decisions are a lot more complex than just taking the team with the best on the field performance the last few years.

I agree. I would elaborate by adding that the particular mix of what is important changes dramatically depending on the conference, and depending on the school even.

 

[freescooter]

Did you just call Pitt, Cuse, and WVU also-ran basketball programs?

What has Pitt ever won except the record for gagging in the post season? And I really don't get the Syracuse is a great line? Compared to what? That school has managed to ride Carmelo Anthony's back not only to their only national championship but to a hall of fame slot for Boeheim and now a soft landing in the ACC. Syracuse is Maryland with a coach who doesn't sweat as much. West Virginia is another nice program that has exactly 1 final four in the modern era. 1959 doesn't really count. They are all good programs but let's be honest. There are 50 programs that can be interchanged with all 3.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Nelsonmuntz,

Surely you don't think that FSU and Oklahoma were "rejected" because they don't have top basketball programs.

If that's not the stupidest argument ever then I don't what is.

What's the common element among the latest conference movers? Some have very good basketball teams, but they are unthreatening football powers. They are uncontroversial and don't threaten the status quo all that much.

If anything the PAC-12 membership didn't want thr four package deal, because they didn't want LHN and they knew that most of the schools in their conference would have been instantly outclassed.

FSU blackballed by the SEC? No shocker there really. Who do you think blackballed them?

I can't believe that someone has actually latched on to BLawyer's "good but not too good" argument.

If "good but not too good" is the standard, UConn should be in spectacular shape. UConn football is the definition of "good but not too good".

Driving factors of expansion:

1) Markets
2) Markets
3) Markets
4) quality football
5) quality basketball - can move to #4 depending on the league

 

[nelsonmuntz]

It matters so much that three also rans are leaving for new secure homes while the best program in the country over the last 15 years is left hanging on for dear life...And last year, when it looked like the B-12 would implode, one of the sport's blue bloods looked like it would be left by the wayside...I don't advocate dropping basketball but it is important to relaize that it is only marginally more valuable than soccer in the current environment.

Three of the first four programs out the door in the Big East may be 3 of the 4 best basketball programs. Pitt and Syracuse are gone and Louisville is in a cage match with WVU for Big 12 #10. UConn getting turned down was the same as FSU getting blackballed to the SEC. A regional program viewed us as competitive. Markets.

Interestingly I would have thought that BCU would consider Syracuse more competitive since both schools are populated by mediocre, pretentious, douches whose parents are willing to spend 2.5x what they could get for essentially the same education at any of the 25 best public universities. The primary difference between the two schools is that Syracuse women are better looking and sluttier.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

What has Pitt ever won except the record for gagging in the post season? And I really don't get the Syracuse is a great line? Compared to what? That school has managed to ride Carmelo Anthony's back not only to their only national championship but to a hall of fame slot for Boeheim and now a soft landing in the ACC. Syracuse is Maryland with a coach who doesn't sweat as much. West Virginia is another nice program that has exactly 1 final four in the modern era. 1959 doesn't really count. They are all good programs but let's be honest. There are 50 programs that can be interchanged with all 3.

You just jumped the shark.

 

[HuskyHawk]

What has Pitt ever won except the record for gagging in the post season? And I really don't get the Syracuse is a great line? Compared to what? That school has managed to ride Carmelo Anthony's back not only to their only national championship but to a hall of fame slot for Boeheim and now a soft landing in the ACC. Syracuse is Maryland with a coach who doesn't sweat as much. West Virginia is another nice program that has exactly 1 final four in the modern era. 1959 doesn't really count. They are all good programs but let's be honest. There are 50 programs that can be interchanged with all 3.

Ack. They win "games". Winning championships is nearly irrelevant. Pitt has had a consistent to 25 basketball team for many years. 10 straight trips to the NCAA tournament, a record our Huskies cannot match. Yes they underperform in the tournament. Who cares? There are certainly not 50 comparable programs.

Multiple publications consistently place Pitt among the top programs in football and basketball combined. UConn rates well on this scale as well.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

What has Pitt ever won except the record for gagging in the post season? And I really don't get the Syracuse is a great line? Compared to what? That school has managed to ride Carmelo Anthony's back not only to their only national championship but to a hall of fame slot for Boeheim and now a soft landing in the ACC. Syracuse is Maryland with a coach who doesn't sweat as much. West Virginia is another nice program that has exactly 1 final four in the modern era. 1959 doesn't really count. They are all good programs but let's be honest. There are 50 programs that can be interchanged with all 3.

You just made me agree with Waylon. You're nuts.

 

[businesslawyer]

Interestingly I would have thought that BCU would consider Syracuse more competitive since both schools are populated by mediocre, pretentious, douches whose parents are willing to spend 2.5x what they could get for essentially the same education at any of the 25 best public universities. The primary difference between the two schools is that Syracuse women are better looking and sluttier.

I beg to differ. Better looking is a secondary difference. Sluttier is a primary difference.

 

[Druken Friar]

Three of the first four programs out the door in the Big East may be 3 of the 4 best basketball programs. Pitt and Syracuse are gone and Louisville is in a cage match with WVU for Big 12 #10. UConn getting turned down was the same as FSU getting blackballed to the SEC. A regional program viewed us as competitive. Markets.

Interestingly I would have thought that BCU would consider Syracuse more competitive since both schools are populated by mediocre, pretentious, douches whose parents are willing to spend 2.5x what they could get for essentially the same education at any of the 25 best public universities. The primary difference between the two schools is that Syracuse women are better looking and sluttier.

Did someone log in as you? I don't think I've seen you write such things before. Shocking stuff.

 

[The Funster]

If anyone has even spent a day of winter in Syracuse they'd understand why the women are sluttier...

 

[Druken Friar]

I should have gone to Syracuse, damm.

 

[tzznandrew]

What has Pitt ever won except the record for gagging in the post season? And I really don't get the Syracuse is a great line? Compared to what? That school has managed to ride Carmelo Anthony's back not only to their only national championship but to a hall of fame slot for Boeheim and now a soft landing in the ACC. Syracuse is Maryland with a coach who doesn't sweat as much. West Virginia is another nice program that has exactly 1 final four in the modern era. 1959 doesn't really count. They are all good programs but let's be honest. There are 50 programs that can be interchanged with all 3.

I'll bite.

Give me 15 programs better than or interchangeable with Syracuse in the modern era.

 

[Druken Friar]

Syracuse, 1987,1996,2003 in the final four, runner up 1987,1996, champs 2003. Sweet 16, 1979, 80,84,87,89,90,94,96,98,2000,03,04,09,10. One of the elite basketball programs in the country.

Who's better? Jim Boeheim 856-301 (.740). Since he's been at Syracuse 2 "bad " seasons, 1981-82 they went 16-13, and 1996-97 they went 19-13, every other year 20 wins or more. Never had a losing season. Lead the conference in attendance every year. Irreplaceable to the basketball side.

 

[ctchamps]

Unfortunately for the sport, as long as the NCAA negotiates the contract for television rights for the NCAA Tournament, and then keeps the lion share for itself, college basketball will always be a distant 2nd to college football in university revenue.

This is more important than being given credit for. The power house football schools preempted the NCAA and basically divided revenues amongst 25% of the universities. The power house basket ball schools did not attempt to create a similar entity. Revenues generated by basket ball are divided amongst a wider field of universities, thus reducing the leverage the power universities in basket ball have in dictating terms with the media. It would have been interesting if the basket ball schools that were perennial powers created their own version of the BCS instead of the NCAA format.

 

[freescooter]

College basketball at the highest levels isn't about regular season. If you are playing at a national level not a living soul on this earth cares if you win 25 games in a season. NO-BOD-EE! Haven't since the NCAA tourney went to 64 teams. If that is what you want to brag about, watch the MAAC or the NEC. Twenty-five wins is a big deal there. What matters is what you do come March. Pitt has done squat. West Virginia has had as many final four runs in the modern era as, oh, George Mason. There next one will make them equal to Oklahoma State. Syracuse at least has a title to its name. As I said, they rode Carmelo as far as they can ride him. Boeheim rode him all the way to the Hall of Fame. Final Fours in 1996 and especially 1987 are about as relevent as West Virginia's 1959 Final Four. And with the exception of the 3 Final Fours in 35 years, the Orange have never been past the Sweet 16. I guess we have a different definition of "elite."