So Carolina AD asking for Review of Foul.

[Blueballer]

So should TN ask for a review of the play where Coates is seen slapping the ball with two feet out of bounds?

Or "Inbounding" a ball when she still had one foot ON the court.

 

[Blueballer]

Supposedly such reviews automatically take place of the refs' performance but I guess I don't blame the AD for wanting to make sure it happens. The refs did a crummy job and not just on that play.

 

[donalddoowop]

A review on that play won't change anything because it was a judgment call. However, that missed call on Coates touching the ball while out of bounds was unacceptable. That was obvious and there was no way the underneath official should not have caught. Believe me, that will be pointed out during his evaluation.

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

Refs get evaluated, like every other employee in the world. And bad refs don't get their contracts renewed by the conference.

vowelguy- - -the refs cannot be given a serious evaluation when they average 6 games a week all over 1/2 the USA!
WBB, both College and WNBA, are among the worst officiated in any sport!
Name a ref recently that lost their conference spot over a ref call no matter how bad it was!
The only ref disciplined for her "on court" performance is Sally Bell, who also mouthed off about a coach and was taken off the roster of officials! The idea that she's nominated for induction into the WBB H of F is ridiculous!
If my memory serves me, in the Miss St vs SoCar game the Miss St big girl was called for an illegal screen fouling her out (the ONLY ONE called in the whole game) in the last minute that gave SoCar the ball and they scored the winning basket. There must have been 15 to 20 illegal screens set all game and the only one called was in a game ending situation! What made THAT screen so illegal over the others NOT called? Doris Burke commented on that as the replay was shown!

 

[Plebe]

Supposedly such reviews automatically take place of the refs' performance but I guess I don't blame the AD for wanting to make sure it happens. The refs did a crummy job and not just on that play.

I've never been a basketball ref, but from my experience as an official in another NCAA sport I can say that the officials' performance in every single game is subjected to multiple layers of scrutiny and evaluation. In addition to the assigned officiating crew, an "observer" or some other representative is assigned to each game by the conference coordinator of officials to be present during the officials' pregame procedures and postgame debriefings, as well as the game itself, and to submit his or her own report to the coordinator. Each official also submits their own report. The head coaches, of course, each get to submit their own evaluation as well (and you can imagine what those look like). In a game of this magnitude, it's very likely that the conference coordinator was also in attendance.

The refs are given a ton of feedback—some of it immediate, some of it in the days after the game—about the things they screwed up. It's a process that's not visible to the public, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

 

[bags27]

Are those types of fouls subject to immediate review and reversal? I mean, it happened so quickly and depending on one's angle, it could have been a foul. The TV angle, even the first time and in real time, suggested no foul (I though it was a travel). But the ref may have had a different angle. Are those foul calss reversible? If not, then you can only charge the ref with making a bad call, not on bad procedure. It was bad procedure that they didn't review the out-of-bounds alluded to above, in which it was clearly Coates who knocked the ball out. So that's a bad call and bad procedure, and that's bad refereeing.

It's a sad thing that a ref can make a series of bad calls early but none near the end and get off the hook, while a ref could make good calls early but make one mistake at the end and everyone thinks that the referee cost the game and is a bad ref.

 

[SCspur]

No way possible. The SEC has one legit men's team.... and it resides in Lexington. Did you guys lose to Clemson?

As far as football goes.. its not that hard to go to a bowl game these days. Only need 6 wins.

If there's only one legit team then why are we ranked ahead of Duke in the Men's polls? And didn't Duke lose to Clemson Last Year?? Oh yeah we lost to Clemson by 2 without our best player Sindarius Thornwell. Pretty sure you've heard of him.

And as far as football goes... 6 wins aren't easy to come by especially in the SEC (Where the tougher teams are) but I guess Duke will remain cellar dwellers in the ACC.

 

[Sluconn Husky]

Are those types of fouls subject to immediate review and reversal? I mean, it happened so quickly and depending on one's angle, it could have been a foul. The TV angle, even the first time and in real time, suggested no foul (I though it was a travel). But the ref may have had a different angle. Are those foul calss reversible? If not, then you can only charge the ref with making a bad call, not on bad procedure. It was bad procedure that they didn't review the out-of-bounds alluded to above, in which it was clearly Coates who knocked the ball out. So that's a bad call and bad procedure, and that's bad refereeing.

So many plays in a basketball game that there are bound to be missed calls. There was a play in the 1st half in which a ball went off a SC player and they ruled it went off Deshields who was adamant it didn't. She was right; cost UT a possession. Things like that happen. I didn't sense any kind of horrid officiating overall.

 

[HardHatGuy#2]

It's a process that's not visible to the public, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

That's the problem; it isn't publicized. We watch the same officials stink up games week after week and hear/see nothing about it. If they are getting roasted by the supervisory entity, we have no way of knowing. Athletes, coaches, trainers, managers, ADs...everyone is held publicly accountable, but not the officials. Some sports use that as a contract negotiation tool, which I imagine keeps the cost of officiating games down significantly.

I miss Bonita Spence.

On a side note, while it was not the case in this game, when there are two officials covering a BBall game, mistakes WILL happen and HAVE to be tolerated; that's just the nature of the beast. The decision to use only two officials does NOT have to be tolerated.

 

[HardHatGuy#2]

Are those types of fouls subject to immediate review and reversal?

According to the copy of the rulebook that I have, no, it is not.

They can review to determine if a flagrant 1 or 2 should be called, and can review to ensure that the foul called is charged to the correct player, but they can't review to see if a personal foul should or should not have been called. That is not considered a "Correctable Error"; an error in judgment is NOT considered "correctable".

 

[Bestiarius]

Perhaps it's time to institute a challenge rule. Probably won't happen because it would mess with the standard 2 hour time frame allotted, but it would help in these types of games. TN won, but the controversy put a damper on the enjoyment of it.

 

[DaddyChoc]

Perhaps it's time to institute a challenge rule. Probably won't happen because it would mess with the standard 2 hour time frame allotted, but it would help in these types of games. TN won, but the controversy put a damper on the enjoyment of it.

not according to @Bayareahusky

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

Lost in this discussion - refs want to get it right.

They have fans, coaches and players telling them what they "should" have seen. They have pre-game prep that has given them the tendencies of the team and influences (to some degree) what they do see. They have their own quirks, formed of those years of evaluations, that affect how they call a game. For example, some refs are willing to put up with more contact than others. And both think they are adhering exactly to the rules.

Also, and I read a discussion about this by Lisa Mattingly, sometimes you err and you just can't do anything about it. She discussed a game where she called something just before the game was over. In hindsight (review) she should have swallowed her whistle, and it did affect how the game came out. But she thought she saw what she thought she saw, and knew immediately after she whistled that it was a bit "gray" but it is too late then. Refs cannot appear wishy-washy about their calls (which is different from wanting help in certain situations).

 

[Geew1992]

My daughter's team lost a game by 1 point earlier in the season to the same team by the same amount last year. Both games, her coach got T'd up. Both in the 3rd quarter. Should he have? Who knows? Did that decide the game? Looking at the scoreboard, those T's cost them the games. But so did the missed free throws and 30 turnovers. I am the first to say refs make horrible calls, but do they necessarily cost teams games. I'm not too sure about that.

I do know parents can be relentless. My daughter's team beat a team last Thursday by 1 point. The parents fomr the team were jawing from start to finish. If they weren't "coaching", they were complaining to the refs about everything. My daughter drew a fifth foul on one of the other team's player with about 2-3 minutes left. Her father was on the refs from that moment on. He was saying "They just decided the game", had his phone saying "look here's the play". The ref warned him to be quiet or he would be out. Then with about 1 minute left, and the other team had the lead, my daughter got the rebound put back to tie it up. The parents again were on the refs that the shot clock went back to 30, but it never hit the rim. (I wasn't paying any attention to the shot clock). After the game was over, one of the parents went to the scorers table and got in their faces. This is D3 and students are at the table. He was escorted out by an officer. The officer came back in to make sure there wasn't anymore trouble.

Refs are human just like we are. And I can bet they miss multiple calls for both teams. Like someone said, don't put the refs in that position.

 

[MilfordHusky]

I thought that Wilson and Coates both hurt themselves in AA voting as a result of that game (not that it was more important than the loss).

 

[SCGamecock]

I thought that Wilson and Coates both hurt themselves in AA voting as a result of that game (not that it was more important than the loss).

Coates definitely did. Wilson probably didn't.

 

[LadyVols9]

games are never won or lost in the last play. TN was ahead for most of the 4th quarter and by double digits at one point. SC got several calls in the 4th quarter. most notably, coates clearly touched the ball while she was out of bounds at the 2:20 mark of 4th quarter. they got the call, and scored immediately. it's basketball. it happens. it's not like we were getting home cooked calls on our own floor.

here's my thing...teams should lose the same way they win. blaming the refs does nothing to help the SC team understand why they really lost. they lost b/c TN's game plan worked. TN took it straight to wilson and coates, got them in foul trouble, and played a smarter game. SC's perimeter defense was non-existent and the LV guards drove to the basket at every turn. i just don't understand why Dawn would allow so much energy to be devoted to something like this. it just looks bad as a team. i was very surprised that neither the team nor dawn gave TN any credit when talking about the game. it was all about the call and how it felt to lose. the TN players were so complimentary of the SC program, players, and staff. i have a lot of respect for Dawn. i was just disappointed in how they handled it...and continue to handle it.

and lastly, if SC wants the REAL answer as to why they lost then look no further than Wilson's technical foul. the technical foul was all on her. after that, TN made the free throws, got possession of the ball, and she had to take an immediate seat on the bench for much of the second half. there's the ballgame. period.

this post isn't intended to insult any SC fans on here. refs blow calls in every game and i understand the frustration. however, the other 39 1/2 minutes of this game shouldn't just be cast aside over a questionable call. these are just my thoughts....

 

[xHunt3r]

I understand that the debate is more about whether this kinda of thing should be review-able or not, but just for the record it looks like the last play was a good call by the ref. Here is screen cap from last play, same angle as the ref that called it a foul... clear contact at the knees when Harris stepped in front of Nared as she tried to turn and run with her...

 

[Ukonnfan]

Dear A.D., move on...

 

[cabbie191]

I know refs are evaluated after every game - both at the collegiate and professional level. I have a friend who is a backfield judge in the NFL after performing that duty for many years in the B1G - which he also served as a basketball referee. The scrutiny is pretty intense.

I am guessing that the AD's move at SC is intended to insure that the evaluation of the officiating in this particular game is more sincere or thorough than might otherwise be the case.

I think I may have mentioned this before - we've on and off complained over the years about the lack of quality referees, particularly in WBB. I have felt this year there has been a general level of improvement. That is, until the last two South Carolina games aired on national television. Two games consecutively where it is easy to make a claim that the referees had an outsized role in determining the winner.

 

[Bigboote]

So should TN ask for a review of the play where Coates is seen slapping the ball with two feet out of bounds?

I saw that in real time but cant find it on the replay. Do you remember when that was?

I didn't note just when it was, but I thought it was at about 3-5 minutes left. I was incredulous when it happened.

 

[Nuyoika]

I didn't note just when it was, but I thought it was at about 3-5 minutes left. I was incredulous when it happened.

I recall being like.... WTF is going on here?

 

[Ukonnfan]

I didn't note just when it was, but I thought it was at about 3-5 minutes left. I was incredulous when it happened.

2:24 to go...

 

[SCGamecock]

games are never won or lost in the last play. TN was ahead for most of the 4th quarter and by double digits at one point. SC got several calls in the 4th quarter. most notably, coates clearly touched the ball while she was out of bounds at the 2:20 mark of 4th quarter. they got the call, and scored immediately. it's basketball. it happens. it's not like we were getting home cooked calls on our own floor.

here's my thing...teams should lose the same way they win. blaming the refs does nothing to help the SC team understand why they really lost. they lost b/c TN's game plan worked. TN took it straight to wilson and coates, got them in foul trouble, and played a smarter game. SC's perimeter defense was non-existent and the LV guards drove to the basket at every turn. i just don't understand why Dawn would allow so much energy to be devoted to something like this. it just looks bad as a team. i was very surprised that neither the team nor dawn gave TN any credit when talking about the game. it was all about the call and how it felt to lose. the TN players were so complimentary of the SC program, players, and staff. i have a lot of respect for Dawn. i was just disappointed in how they handled it...and continue to handle it.

and lastly, if SC wants the REAL answer as to why they lost then look no further than Wilson's technical foul. the technical foul was all on her. after that, TN made the free throws, got possession of the ball, and she had to take an immediate seat on the bench for much of the second half. there's the ballgame. period.

this post isn't intended to insult any SC fans on here. refs blow calls in every game and i understand the frustration. however, the other 39 1/2 minutes of this game shouldn't just be cast aside over a questionable call. these are just my thoughts....

Dawn didn't ask for the review, her boss did. I can't imagine her (or anybody) telling their boss what to do. I'm willing to bet the AD did it to appease fans.

Staley didn't even talk about the call in her post game presser or in any of her meetings with the media after... every time she was asked about it she literally said "I saw what you say.. we're moving on", Wilson even spoke several times of "turning the page", she can't help what the media asked her and I don't think anything Wilson said after the game was negative towards Tennessee, she actually mostly talked about how she needs to do better and be on the floor with her team... not sure where you're getting this idea of Dawn and the team devoting "so much energy to something like this"..

I posted the actual post game interviews in the game thread. I can post links to Dawn's after practice meetings with the media if necessary as well.

 

[LadyVols9]

Dawn didn't ask for the review, her boss did. I can't imagine her (or anybody) telling their boss what to do. I'm willing to bet the AD did it to appease fans.

Staley didn't even talk about the call in her post game presser or in any of her meetings with the media after... every time she was asked about it she literally said "I saw what you say.. we're moving on", Wilson even spoke several times of "turning the page", she can't help what the media asked her and I don't think anything Wilson said after the game was negative towards Tennessee, she actually mostly talked about how she needs to do better and be on the floor with her team... not sure where you're getting this idea of Dawn and the team devoting "so much energy to something like this"..

I posted the actual post game interviews in the game thread. I can post links to Dawn's after practice meetings with the media if necessary as well.

well i don't think this decision would be made without Dawn. it's her program and she runs it. aside from that, i don't think they said anything negative. my point was they never gave any credit to TN. now, the reporters were fixated on the call. that did dictate the conversation. i just thought they could have been more gracious. two people can watch a video and see two different things. we are both fans of our schools. i get and respect your point.