September non-UConn recruiting thread

[southie]

 

[Plebe]

I realize those are just unofficial visits...but what are they selling at USC? Absolute mediocrity for about a quarter century, can't understand how they get any top recruits to consider them. It must be the 800 dedicated fans that show up to their home games.

Well, they did win a Pac-12 tournament title in the last decade, something that neither UCLA, nor Washington, nor Arizona or Arizona State can claim.

And besides, why should a mediocre track record be an automatic deal-killer? What was Adia Barnes selling when she took over at AZ?

 

[nwhoopfan]

Well, they did win a Pac-12 tournament title in the last decade, something that neither UCLA, nor Washington, nor Arizona or Arizona State can claim.

And besides, why should a mediocre track record be an automatic deal-killer? What was Adia Barnes selling when she took over at AZ?

That's a fair question, but Barnes didn't really start recruiting the HS ranks well until she started winning. Initial success was almost entirely based on transfers, which is kind of a different beast. McDonald was familiar w/ her from UW.

A better question is what was Graves selling at Oregon when he arrived, which I think was posed earlier in the thread. I don't know, but it worked.

But the first part is REALLY grasping at straws. A singular conference tournament title? So what? UW and Arizona both have Final 4s, UCLA has been just about perpetually getting to the Sweet 16 and has an Elite 8. ASU is down trending but still much more success than USC in recent years. Also that was the 2013-14 season, and USC hasn't had close to as good of a season since, so I'm not even sure what the point of bringing that up is. They were 1 and done in the Tourney that year and haven't been back since.

 

[Plebe]

That's a fair question, but Barnes didn't really start recruiting the HS ranks well until she started winning. Initial success was almost entirely based on transfers, which is kind of a different beast. McDonald was familiar w/ her from UW.

A better question is what was Graves selling at Oregon when he arrived, which I think was posed earlier in the thread. I don't know, but it worked.

But the first part is REALLY grasping at straws. A singular conference tournament title? So what? UW and Arizona both have Final 4s, UCLA has been just about perpetually getting to the Sweet 16 and has an Elite 8. ASU is down trending but still much more success than USC in recent years. Also that was the 2013-14 season, and USC hasn't had close to as good of a season since, so I'm not even sure what the point of bringing that up is. They were 1 and done in the Tourney that year and haven't been back since.

Selling is selling, whether it's to HS recruits or transfers. Obviously Barnes had a prior relationship with McDonald, but it's still selling. Not every player automatically follows their former assistant coach to her new job.

Obviously I was being a bit tongue in cheek about the first part. But success is relative, and recruiting is more about the future than the past. Only Stanford has what I'd consider a long-standing nationally elite pedigree. A few other programs have made some waves in the past 10 or so years. None of the coaches of these emerging programs were able to just sit back in their comfy armchair and let the banners and trophies do the recruiting for them.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Selling is selling, whether it's to HS recruits or transfers. Obviously Barnes had a prior relationship with McDonald, but it's still selling. Not every player automatically follows their former assistant coach to her new job.

Obviously I was being a bit tongue in cheek about the first part. But success is relative, and recruiting is more about the future than the past. Only Stanford has what I'd consider a long-standing nationally elite pedigree. A few other programs have made some waves in the past 10 or so years. None of the coaches of these emerging programs were able to just sit back in their comfy armchair and let the banners and trophies do the recruiting for them.

Good points. That makes me curious about how Mulkey and Staley got things rolling at Baylor and South Carolina. I was paying zero attention to either program previously. Looking it up, Mulkey's transformation at Baylor was nearly instantaneous, while Staley took a little longer but it was still rapid.

 

[HuskyMJ]

That's a fair question, but Barnes didn't really start recruiting the HS ranks well until she started winning. Initial success was almost entirely based on transfers, which is kind of a different beast. McDonald was familiar w/ her from UW.

A better question is what was Graves selling at Oregon when he arrived, which I think was posed earlier in the thread. I don't know, but it worked.

But the first part is REALLY grasping at straws. A singular conference tournament title? So what? UW and Arizona both have Final 4s, UCLA has been just about perpetually getting to the Sweet 16 and has an Elite 8. ASU is down trending but still much more success than USC in recent years. Also that was the 2013-14 season, and USC hasn't had close to as good of a season since, so I'm not even sure what the point of bringing that up is. They were 1 and done in the Tourney that year and haven't been back since.

The new staff is not tied to the prior results! Stop trying to tie the two together. Recruits who were maybe 5 years old 10 years ago need to weigh the prior results under players and coaches that aren't there anymore? If this was the case no teams would ever rise up and improve.

 

[nwhoopfan]

The new staff is not tied to the prior results! Stop trying to tie the two together. Recruits who were maybe 5 years old 10 years ago need to weigh the prior results under players and coaches that aren't there anymore? If this was the case no teams would ever rise up and improve.

Okay, well the new head coach had a significant decline at Cal after a good start there, so I don't really see that as being a selling point.

Also, look at USC's history during the last 25 or so years, under 6 different HC (one had 2 stints there). Not much variance. Looking at both USC's history and my feelings about Gottlieb as a HC, I feel fairly comfortable in thinking not much is going to change. You can feel free to hope otherwise.

Obviously fellow conference members like Oregon St., Oregon and Arizona have had big turn arounds in recent years. It could happen anywhere, it could happen at USC, but I don't think Gottlieb is the coach to get it done.

 

[DaBball]

Tina Langley is off to a hot start at Washington -- #33 Hannah Stines and #75 Elle Ladine committed after their official visits this weekend.

 

[dws3665]

Bella Fontleroy was at VA Tech this past weekend.

 

[LoTrader]

Bella Fontleroy was at VA Tech this past weekend.

Great name!

 

[CocoHusky]

Bella Fontleroy was at VA Tech this past weekend.

Great name!

Bella can really Ball-see what I did there? She was highly ranked (top 10) but suffered an ACL injury which call her to fall in ESPN ranking all the way down to 80 ish. Good skill set as either SG or wing I'm predicting she stays home at goes to Missouri. Best of luck to her on a full recovery.

 

[dws3665]

Although she showed some interest early, Mizzou is apparently not one of her finalists.

Her dad is a legendary player at Missouri State (which was Southwest Missouri State when he played), but I think she is set on going P5.

She has taken a visit to Arkansas, now VA Tech, and her other 3 will be Baylor, TTU, & Arizona. I do think distance may matter for her somewhat, though.

She had an absolutely dynamite summer, and several evaluators put her on their 'top 5 stock-risers' list coming out of July, so it'll be interesting to see how high she moves back up the ranking lists. She is certainly too low where she is now on ESPN (in the 80s).

 

[nwhoopfan]

Tina Langley is off to a hot start at Washington -- #33 Hannah Stines and #75 Elle Ladine committed after their official visits this weekend.

That's a good way to start the week!

 

[Rooster C.]

Good points. That makes me curious about how Mulkey and Staley got things rolling at Baylor and South Carolina. I was paying zero attention to either program previously. Looking it up, Mulkey's transformation at Baylor was nearly instantaneous, while Staley took a little longer but it was still rapid.

I think the difference between coaches in the top 4 to 8 and others that routinely appear in the top 25 can be traced to a few things. Assuming top 25 coaches(in general) are all very good coaches, the difference comes down to recruiting talent and those who have had past continued success (the top 4 to 8) have rosters loaded with top-25 recruits. Geno has publicly stated several times that the only difference between his team and the one he is up against is often that he has more all-americans on his roster than the other side.

If you haven't established that winning reputation then you must build your program. That comes down to "selling" a top recruit to stay in their home state. In the case of Mulkey that is B.Griner, in the case of Staley that is A.Coates and A. Wilson. One great player can really put a school on the recruiting map and turn around a program. Of course you have to surround that great player with other talent and be able to coach them in to the sweet 16 to generate buzz but success begins at home. Some states are rich with talent and others not so much so then you must recruit well regionally from neighboring states and add solid international talent and find a "sleeper" or two from your home state.
S.Cunningham did a lot for Missouri's recruiting, E.Cunane for NC State's, and so on. Success begets success. Oregon recruited Ionescu from neighboring Cal, Washington got Plum from Cal, Iowa got Gustafson from Wis, on and on. One key player (especially a BIG) can make all of the difference.
UConn built a program at a time when WBB was just beginning to garner real national attention, mostly thanks to Tennessee. Geno's early success followed this same pattern of getting the best local talent from the area and surrounding it with solid international players. Top programs like Uconn,Stanford,and S.Carolina can now recruit the best players from anywhere but keeping the best local/regional talent is still a big part of continued success.

 

[nwhoopfan]

In the case of Mulkey that is B.Griner,

Mulkey won her first National Championship long before Griner arrived. I think they were well established prior to her hitting the scene.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Washington got Plum from Cal

Unfortunately this is Exhibit A in how not to build up a program around a difference making player. Brought in almost nobody of note after her and they fell off a cliff when she graduated.

 

[Zanzman]

Unfortunately this is Exhibit A in how not to build up a program around a difference making player. Brought in almost nobody of note after her and they fell off a cliff when she graduated.

Same with Cunningham at Missouri

 

[Rooster C.]

In the case of Neighbors, he recruited Osahor and some player called McDonald who left Washington for Arizona after he left for Arkansas' job.
As for Cunningham and Missouri, it resulted in a 2019 recruiting class of Espn HG #9 Aijha Blackwell as well as #26 that year.

 

[Rooster C.]

And as for Baylor I wasn't going that far back but their first championship was mostly because of S.Young(from neighboring Louisiana) and S.Blackmon (from Texas). As for their most recent championship, K.Brown (from Louisiana) and L.Cox (from Texas).

 

[nwhoopfan]

In the case of Neighbors, he recruited Osahor and some player called McDonald who left Washington for Arizona after he left for Arkansas' job.
As for Cunningham and Missouri, it resulted in a 2019 recruiting class of Espn HG #9 Aijha Blackwell as well as #26 that year.

Osahor was the same class as Plum.

He got a McDonald's AA named Strother who totally bombed.

Yeah McDonald turned out to be very good. Amber Melgoza, who did stay at UW all 4 years, also was much better than anyone projected.

McDonald and Melgoza were both Fr. when Plum was a Sr. Can you name one player off the top of your head that was recruited to UW who was a Jr. or Soph when Plum was a Sr? That's 2 whole classes that turned up...not much.

And then Wynn took over following the best 2 years in UW history, plenty of national attention due to Plum's chase for the scoring record...and had by far the worst 4 year stretch in school history. All the momentum gained from Plum's tenure amounted to absolutely zilch.

Oh, Neighbors also at one point got a commitment from Destiny Slocum before she changed her mind...and then changed her mind 2 or 3 more times during her career. But since she never actually showed up in Seattle, doesn't count for anything. She did play for Neighbors eventually at Arkansas.

 

[Rooster C.]

My point wasn't that recruiting a great player yielded immediate dividends in future recruiting. I stated that the player and school first had to achieve some success and garner some national attention(usually by that player's junior or senior years) - hence A.McDonald as a freshman. The same for Cunningham in Missouri and Wilson at S.Carolina. I also said that's how it BEGINS a program on a trajectory to ongoing success. If the coach leaves shortly after (like McCallie left Michigan State) then the chain is broken.
Arizona may not have great success this year or next but the recruits coming in starting in 2022 will be a direct result of A.McDonald and the team's great run in last year's tournament.

 

[ConwayGmck]

Good points. That makes me curious about how Mulkey and Staley got things rolling at Baylor and South Carolina. I was paying zero attention to either program previously. Looking it up, Mulkey's transformation at Baylor was nearly instantaneous, while Staley took a little longer but it was still rapid.

Staley did bring her recognition as a player to South Carolina - she was regarded as one of the if not THE face of women's basketball at the time, based on what she accomplished at the collegiate, professional, and Olympic levels. She started out by pulling the consensus #2 behind Griner in Kelsey Bone out of Texas - although Bone stayed in Columbia for just her freshman season, it showed Staley's abilities as a recruiter initially.

But Staley was not a big recruiter in the southern and southeast regions, much less on a national scale at that point. Temple was more of a regional program, and truly South Carolina was as well despite being in the SEC.

But getting to the gist of the question - some coaches recruit their way to successful seasons, and others coach their way to successful recruiting. Staley's case was more of the latter, by far. She had her very first class that had as many as three 4-stars in the 2012 cycle, and got her first McDonald's AA (after Bone) in the 2013 cycle. Her teams won 10 games, then 14 (with Bone), then 18, then 25 and 25 for the 2011-12 and 2012-13 seasons. In just 5 seasons at SC. It wasn't eye-popping success, but it was steady and consistent.

Beyond Bone, the best-rated talent Staley's staff were pulling were mostly in-state talent: Welch, Sessions, Dozier, Coates. Mitchell was out of NC but grew up idolizing Staley, so it was Staley's celebrity as a former player as much as her coaching ability for guards that got Tiffany. Same could be said for Ieasia Walker out of NY, which like Bianca Cuevas-Moore in 2014 was a more familiar recruiting ground for Staley from her Temple days. But still, with a roster that only had a handful of lower 4-star talent and 3-star role players, Staley's staff built the program into a consistent winner and NCAAT participant, that was in the top 25 and finishing with winning SEC records.

And while South Carolina had experienced similar successes in the past, it hadn't done so for any long stretches while a SEC member - and especially struggled against conference foes - so Staley was earning her stripes as an up-and-coming WBB coach, in addition to her name recognition as a former player. With A'ja Wilson, one could say she had fortune that Wilson grew up in her program's backyard. But one might also argue with logic that SC wouldn't have gotten the class it did including Wilson, had the 2013-14 team not had the success it had winning 29 games, rising into the top 10 of the rankings, and winning the program's first ever SEC regular-season title and NCAAT #1 Seed.

By that point, Staley had established herself as a head coach enough to be in the running for MANY top prospects, and had top rated prep prospects such as Ieshia Small, Kaela Davis, Allisha Gray, Te'a Cooper, etc. who had the Gamecocks in their finalist lists, but chose to go elsewhere (although a few still ended up in Columbia indirectly). After the 2014 cycle and 2015 Final Four - plus two more SEC regular-season and tournament titles - the recruiting has burst wide open, even as the success on the courts have continued. In Staley's first 8 cycles at South Carolina, her staff recruited and signed 5 5-star rated prospects (Bone's class was before Hoopgurlz started using star ratings, but her grade was 5-star equivalent) - 4 of those came in the 2014 cycle. In the 6 cycles since, they've signed 16.....

 

[letsgogirls]

Same with Cunningham at Missouri

I'm interested in seeing what happens with the Iowa program after Caitlin Clark leaves.

 

[visitingcock]

Staley did bring her recognition as a player to South Carolina - she was regarded as one of the if not THE face of women's basketball at the time, based on what she accomplished at the collegiate, professional, and Olympic levels. She started out by pulling the consensus #2 behind Griner in Kelsey Bone out of Texas - although Bone stayed in Columbia for just her freshman season, it showed Staley's abilities as a recruiter initially.

But Staley was not a big recruiter in the southern and southeast regions, much less on a national scale at that point. Temple was more of a regional program, and truly South Carolina was as well despite being in the SEC.

But getting to the gist of the question - some coaches recruit their way to successful seasons, and others coach their way to successful recruiting. Staley's case was more of the latter, by far. She had her very first class that had as many as three 4-stars in the 2012 cycle, and got her first McDonald's AA (after Bone) in the 2013 cycle. Her teams won 10 games, then 14 (with Bone), then 18, then 25 and 25 for the 2011-12 and 2012-13 seasons. In just 5 seasons at SC. It wasn't eye-popping success, but it was steady and consistent.

Beyond Bone, the best-rated talent Staley's staff were pulling were mostly in-state talent: Welch, Sessions, Dozier, Coates. Mitchell was out of NC but grew up idolizing Staley, so it was Staley's celebrity as a former player as much as her coaching ability for guards that got Tiffany. Same could be said for Ieasia Walker out of NY, which like Bianca Cuevas-Moore in 2014 was a more familiar recruiting ground for Staley from her Temple days. But still, with a roster that only had a handful of lower 4-star talent and 3-star role players, Staley's staff built the program into a consistent winner and NCAAT participant, that was in the top 25 and finishing with winning SEC records.

And while South Carolina had experienced similar successes in the past, it hadn't done so for any long stretches while a SEC member - and especially struggled against conference foes - so Staley was earning her stripes as an up-and-coming WBB coach, in addition to her name recognition as a former player. With A'ja Wilson, one could say she had fortune that Wilson grew up in her program's backyard. But one might also argue with logic that SC wouldn't have gotten the class it did including Wilson, had the 2013-14 team not had the success it had winning 29 games, rising into the top 10 of the rankings, and winning the program's first ever SEC regular-season title and NCAAT #1 Seed.

By that point, Staley had established herself as a head coach enough to be in the running for MANY top prospects, and had top rated prep prospects such as Ieshia Small, Kaela Davis, Allisha Gray, Te'a Cooper, etc. who had the Gamecocks in their finalist lists, but chose to go elsewhere (although a few still ended up in Columbia indirectly). After the 2014 cycle and 2015 Final Four - plus two more SEC regular-season and tournament titles - the recruiting has burst wide open, even as the success on the courts have continued. In Staley's first 8 cycles at South Carolina, her staff recruited and signed 5 5-star rated prospects (Bone's class was before Hoopgurlz started using star ratings, but her grade was 5-star equivalent) - 4 of those came in the 2014 cycle. In the 6 cycles since, they've signed 16.....

My favorite thing about Dawn is that she has created excitement re women's basketball throughout the state on the high school level. Winning helps that but she is also spending time connecting with HS coaches across the state.

The state is now loaded with highschool talent like Watkins, Cooper, Fulwilley, Edwards, Groot and Stack. Others will play in college on a P-5ish level while that group my all sign with contender programs. I only see the popularity of wbb in SC grow as Dawn establishes us firmly among the perennial powers. Even (hawk-spit) Clempsun may benefit.

 

[nwhoopfan]

I'm interested in seeing what happens with the Iowa program after Caitlin Clark leaves.

They've been fairly successful prior to her arriving and have had a number of solid players. I don't see them being a program that crashes when a superstar moves on.

edit--look at their season after Gustafson graduated and before Clark arrived--kept rolling along, Doyle and several others really stepped up