Second Free Throw - Do You Miss on Purpose

[brasssbonanzaa]

Is there still a rule that the ref can call a technical on free throws where the shooter intentionally tries to miss and doesn't make an effort - like if he one-handed line drives it at the rim or something?

There's arguments both ways, if you trust that the shooter can miss without airballing, you go that route but everyone on the team has to be on the same page. You'd have to pull all defenders off the free throw line and give up the rebound to ensure no one fouls. Put most guys at two-thirds and half court to cut off any attempts to pass and distract the heaver. But no one can come within five feet of an attacker under any circumstances. Also, the opposition must not have a timeout, which SU didn't I don't think. But the strategy comes down to making sure the ball hits the rim, an air ball and out of bounds play is high risk.

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

This was just another one of the many ways to make the game 'interesting' after the score was 49-44.

Still, they were two very pretty free throws, and good for the freshman's confidence.
AND they preserved the possibility of a horrid loss.
But SU was not to be denied that experience.

 

[4in16]

I find it ironic that you're talking about missing a free throw on purpose when we can't hit free throws regularly.

 

[dogpause]

With only 2 seconds left, the only shot that likely can be taken is a 3-pointer, so tacking on a second made FT point becomes irrelevant. Trying to miss the shot without missing the rim is difficult and unnatural, but the penalty is no worse than if you made the shot. In fact, it's better because the throw-in cannot run the baseline.

 

[JSM1970]

You absolutely miss that 2nd FT and force them to rebound, pass and get a shot up. They would have shot a 3 either way. Few of their players are past 1/2 court whereas they can on an inbounds play. But you don't want a violation, so that is the risk.

Not sure if that's on CV or KO or both.

 

[mauconnfan]

You absolutely miss that 2nd FT and force them to rebound, pass and get a shot up. They would have shot a 3 either way. Few of their players are past 1/2 court whereas they can on an inbounds play. But you don't want a violation, so that is the risk.

Not sure if that's on CV or KO or both.

It's NOT absolutely. It's a choice and they made the right one. Did you see Amida foul stupidly on a FT or not? This is the risk on a missed FT attempt on purpose something dumb happening. I mean they can't make a FT anyway so do you actually think anyone can miss it so it's just a regular rebound to the guy with an advantage? Better chance a long carom with 2 guys going up for it and our guy doesn't get ball and bodies the Orange guy to the floor and then we're screwed.

It was the right call.

 

[Excalibur]

With only 2 seconds left, the only shot that likely can be taken is a 3-pointer,

Other than two of the most famous buzzer beaters in history . . .

 

[JSM1970]

you wouldn't have anyone on the line in that situation. maybe take Brimah out since he doesn't understand basketball and would have tried to block a 1/2 court shot and commit a shooting foul

It's NOT absolutely. It's a choice and they made the right one. Did you see Amida foul stupidly on a FT or not? This is the risk on a missed FT attempt on purpose something dumb happening. I mean they can't make a FT anyway so do you actually think anyone can miss it so it's just a regular rebound to the guy with an advantage? Better chance a long carom with 2 guys going up for it and our guy doesn't get ball and bodies the Orange guy to the floor and then we're screwed.

It was the right call.

 

[JSM1970]

both on inbounds plays genius

Other than two of the most famous buzzer beaters in history . . .

 

[Excalibur]

both on inbounds plays genius

That's the whole point. You take out the worst case scenario (failing to hit the rim and losing on the inbounds play).

 

[JSM1970]

Yes, the risk is a violation

That's the whole point. You take out the worst case scenario (failing to hit the rim and losing on the inbounds play).

 

[pnow15]

You miss if you are playing against a team that has a guy with a 95 hr fastball tossing it to a 1st round draft choice.

 

[JSM1970]

You miss if you are playing against a team that has a guy with a 95 hr fastball tossing it to a 1st round draft choice and is a savvy investor....

You miss if you are playing against a team that has a guy with a 95 hr fastball tossing it to a 1st round draft choice.

 

[msgordon]

this is correct. it is clearly a miss. cuse win probability is very low either way so not a huge deal, but relatively i think it is a rather 'big' mistake

you absolutely miss it... I can't understand any of the logic on this thread whatsoever... this isn't even a debate

1) what if he airballs it? well - they inbound it like they were able to anyway due to the make - and this more than likely results in an opportunity to shoot a 3 and not a 2 - if you're able to get a shot off at all - in which case they beat us by 2 instead of 1... so in other words not a big change in the odds of winning the game... and this conveniently ignores the likelihood of airballing the foul shot even if you're trying to miss is practically zero... I've seen guys miss the rim in those situations (same violation as an airball) while trying to miss intentionally but it's almost always a case of bouncing it too hard off the backboard in a situation where you're looking for an offensive board to tie it up

2) what if we foul in the open court / what if we foul in general... trying to be polite here but how on earth would this even conceivably happen - consider there were 2.2 seconds left and we took everyone out from under the hoop - rightfully so - Cuse would then have corralled the rebound (with no one even there to contest them for the board or possibly commit a foul) and been forced to immediately heave up a full court shot after one or 2 dribbles - they had 4 guys under the hoop - no time to advance the ball up court and would have just been forced to throw up a full court heave... in fact if you're concerned with fouling the odds of us committing a foul skyrocketed with the second made FT since there actually became a chance we'd foul a set OOB play vs a next to zero % chance of fouling under the rim given we had no one there and would have had 5 guys at midcourt staring at them taking a full court heave...

you absolutely tell Vital to miss long taking a regular stroke from the line (not firing off the backboard like in an offensive rebounding scenario) and then tell him to get as far away from the rebound as possible (you don't want him contesting the rebound or subsequent shot at all obviously)... you call a timeout (believe we had one or 2 left) just to drill this in his head after which the "execution risk" should be next to zero... now look if it goes in anyway it goes in but you do not tell him to make it... the odds of Cuse winning on a miss are probably around 1%... the odds of Cuse winning after a make there have got to be north of 5%, maybe closer to 10%... it's unbelievable to me that you would not do something in that spot (with the timeout - unless I'm wrong on this) to improve expected outcomes by that degree... anyone arguing this needs a refresher in probability theory with all due respect or just hasn't thought this one through enough given the specific details of the situation...

 

[YearoftheHusky]

That's the whole point. You take out the worst case scenario (failing to hit the rim and losing on the inbounds play).

But by making the second we allowed them to set up an inbound play anyway (that in your words could've caused our loss). And that's the rub.

I just feel as though if we miss, they have to rebound, land, turn, and heave a shot in 2.2 second which is a less lot likely than a full court pass, catch and shoot (ala Tate).

It, of course, ended up how we all wanted it to, and I do not think there is a right answer, per se, but I thought it was an interesting discussion.

 

[mauconnfan]

You miss if you are playing against a team that has a guy with a 95 hr fastball tossing it to a 1st round draft choice.

Who-to-who?

 

[DICKG]

The second point is totally irrelevant. If they make the full court shot they win no matter what. I would definitely miss the second shot to give the team less time to set up.

 

[businesslawyer]

I think that the percentages are you try to miss, but it's a relatively close call and not worth being worked up about.

More importantly, it brought back memories of the '04 Big East Championship game. Ben Gordon hit two free throws to put us up 3 with a second or 2 left, Hilton was deep playing the position that Brimah was in on Monday, and when the throw was made to Page (I think) Armstrong's eyes popped out of his head in sheer panic because he wasn't deep enough, hadn't seen Page go past him and was helpless as the pass went over his head. Thankfully, the pass was caught inside the arc and it didn't cost us the game.

Brimah, by comparison, kept the play safely ahead of him and made the Free Safety play of knocking the pass away.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

The problem with missing the second, specifically in this case, is that you'd have to tell Vital and the whole team to do that before both free throws in the timeout so that everyone's on the same page. Far and away the MOST important thing is to make one free throw of the two. If I'm KO, with a freshman on the line with zero points in his first MSG game and nervous out of his mind, I'm good with not filling his head with scenarios and screwing with his mental makeup heading into that first free throw. The win probability in both cases, if he makes the first free throw, or at least one of the two, is so low that I don't want to risk the possibility of missing both and going to OT where we almost surely lose. In the end, if we can't essentially defend the Tate George shot we don't deserve to win. If that's Shabazz on the line, I'd think KO tells him if the first one goes in to miss the second, but with CV on the line he probably just said to him straight up go make two free throws and get the job done. You could feasibly call a TO in between free throws, but it also allows SU another chance to design a play.

 

[Sky ball]

Geez...make the second shot. Now you are in a Scott Burrell/Tate George scenario. How often does that happen? 1 in 1000? I will take those odds.

 

[JSM1970]

Yes, because even NBA guys never intentionally miss

Geez...make the second shot. Now you are in a Scott Burrell/Tate George scenario. How often does that happen? 1 in 1000? I will take those odds.

 

[Hurleyman216]

You make them both for the simple reason that missing the last one COULD result in a foul and put the other team in position to win in regulation. Much rather force them to make a contested shot than hit free throws. You can say "with a smart team this isn't an issue...blah blah blah". At the end of the game I don't want to put the refs in a position to come into play. We played it out correctly. The last thing you do with a freshman on the line is put in his head thoughts of "intentional misses". You want that guy to be 100% focused on the ball falling through the net.

The Tate George point is moot, you could make the same argument the other way based on Jalen Adams' shot against Cincy (he essentially made that from 3/4 court). Both plays are highly improbable. Making the 2nd shot also lets you set your defense.

 

[msgordon]

why would we be any more likely to foul if the miss was intentional? you dont contest the rebound, you just let them grab it and throw up a prayer. it seems way more likely that we would commit a foul trying to contest a long pass after an inbounds. if you miss, you dont need anyone on their side of the court besides vital, and you can still set your defense with a few guys at halfcourt and a few guys around our 3pt line (or wherever KO thinks is best). The post above about not getting in Vitals head beforehand is very fair. But KO should be good enough, and have the team prepared well enough, that given the first goes in he can then tell Vital to miss and align the rest of the guys

 

[RJScootin]

You miss, you don't allow them to set up and get the ball into a play makers hands. Its really a no brainier but KO lacks in that area.

Still a great win and most likely the pinnacle of the season.

 

[Leebo]

Clock starts on the rebound . . .

I've seen more than one person think that it started on the ball hitting the rim since yesterday. Sometimes I wonder how much people actually pay attention.

 

[David 76]

I was just glad to see us foul up 3 with seconds left re gently.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

TBH I don't really think it matters if you make or miss it in that situation.

 

[Obrero]

No way do you intentionally miss the second FT.

This is a young, inexperienced team, and the biggest fear in those two remaining seconds is that someone has a brain fart and commits a ridiculous foul while chasing a bouncing ball. It's much more likely that someone would commit a foul on a rebound or a loose ball, or even a desperation heave, than on a long, arcing inbounds pass. (Remember, when you're defending the inbounds pass you don't need possession, you just need to tip the ball away.)

Any shot they get, whether you miss the FT or not, is an extremely low-percentage one. I'd much rather take my chances with that than depend on the refs to swallow the whistle.

 

[Nickiiiv]

Given the situation: Up 51 to 50 with 2.2 seconds left and SU having no time outs left.... COME ON REALLY?
Even if they hit a miracle lay up id much rather have overtime then a damn SU W. I can't even believe this is a thread.

 

[FartMan69]

Why is it the same 2 people who ALWAYS have the worst takes on everything? Spread the wealth fellas