OT: Roger Clemens | The Boneyard

OT: Roger Clemens

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Fishy

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Can we now dispense with the government spending untold millions pursuing athletes it thinks took steroids?

It has been an amazing abuse of taxpayer dollars and it has accomplished what it always was destined to - absolutely nothing.
 
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Unbelievable.......the country has so much more to worry about than this crap andyet it continues......this better be the last they stick their noses where they don't belong.....

Hey I have an idea, let's groom someone to be our President rather than the ridiculous offerings we have before us these days!!!:)
 

SubbaBub

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The Bonds case (trafficking) and the first Clemens case IMO were legit, but OMG could the DA's at least be sure they have a case before bringing charges.

Lying to Congress, as opposed to lying from Congress, can't be tolerated. But, then again, Congress shouldn't be calling hearings over petty drug crimes either.

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They're baseball issues, all of them. It's not "trafficking" it's cheating. Not an issue for Congress.........
 
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They're baseball issues, all of them. It's not "trafficking" it's cheating. Not an issue for Congress.........
Exactly, if you lie to congress about baseball and drugs within baseball its a heck of a lot different than lying about a crime where there are victims and damages. I think one of the problems is there's been so much lying WITHIN congress of late that these guys recognize liars easier than most & thus think they've got a case.

Its such a colossal waste though. Every year we get closer and closer to no one caring about steroids anymore. The old school baseball writers and their hall of fame obsession still carry the day, but once those guys are put out to pasture no one is going to give a rat's . Compare this to say the concussion syndrome and issues to date and shockingly there has been more ink spilled and public outrage over steroids than guys losing their minds and dying from repeated blows to the head.
 

alexrgct

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Bottom line, MLB tacitly encouraged players to use PEDs from the early 1990s until 2002. Fay Vincent may have issued an impotent reminder that steroids were not allowed, but such a missive with no actual enforcement (along with millions of dollars on the line for those who produced the best results, clean or not), as well as celebrating the PED-enhanced accomplishments of those obviously juicing (see the 1998 HR race), is clearly an encouragement to use.

I, for one, think Clemens deserves to be a first-ballot HoFer for two reasons:

1. Empirically, PEDs helped hitters more than pitchers. If not, we would not have seen the explosion in offensive numbers, just bigger pitchers and hitters mostly cancelling each other out. So what pitchers like Clemens, Pedro, and Maddux accomplished, regardless of whether any of them were clean, was remarkable.

2. No one put up numbers like Clemens. He was the best pitcher of his era. Again, MLB encouraged PED use with its laissez-faire enforcement policy. PED use was rampant, and Clemens produced exceptional results. The era happened, baseball needs to make itself accountable, and the best players of that era, like Bonds and Clemens, clearly belong in Cooperstown.

And yes, although this trial is way back in the line in terms of why we have a 14-figure national debt behind many other things we can't afford (say, the military industrial complex, corporate welfare, bailouts, mismanaged entitlement programs, the embarrassingly ineffective and pointless "War on Indvidual Liberty...er, Drugs", earmarks, etc.), it certainly doesn't help. It's apolitical grandstanding by an increasingly irrelevant legislative body of cowards too timid to do its job and address the issues the people who elect them desperately need addressed.
 
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Exactly, if you lie to congress about baseball and drugs within baseball its a heck of a lot different than lying about a crime where there are victims and damages. .

I dont know, I think perjury is perjury, but it's insane that Congress feels the need to get involved in stuff like this. I have very little doubt Clemens took steroids and lied about it. I also could not conceivably care less.
 
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Bottom line, MLB tacitly encouraged players to use PEDs from the early 1990s until 2002. Fay Vincent may have issued an impotent reminder that steroids were not allowed, but such a missive with no actual enforcement (along with millions of dollars on the line for those who produced the best results, clean or not), as well as celebrating the PED-enhanced accomplishments of those obviously juicing (see the 1998 HR race), is clearly an encouragement to use.

I, for one, think Clemens deserves to be a first-ballot HoFer for two reasons:

1. Empirically, PEDs helped hitters more than pitchers. If not, we would not have seen the explosion in offensive numbers, just bigger pitchers and hitters mostly cancelling each other out. So what pitchers like Clemens, Pedro, and Maddux accomplished, regardless of whether any of them were clean, was remarkable.

2. No one put up numbers like Clemens. He was the best pitcher of his era. Again, MLB encouraged PED use with its laissez-faire enforcement policy. PED use was rampant, and Clemens produced exceptional results. The era happened, baseball needs to make itself accountable, and the best players of that era, like Bonds and Clemens, clearly belong in Cooperstown.

I'd respond with this.

In your opinion, did Clemens cheat? Yes or no. Not a "Yes.....but!"
 

alexrgct

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I'd respond with this.

In your opinion, did Clemens cheat? Yes or no. Not a "Yes.....but!"
Is that really the pertinent question though? Did Clemens cheat? I'm about 99.99% certain he did.

That being said (and yes, "that being said" and "but" are essential equivalents), the most central question is whether cheating should categorically exclude a player from the HoF. And to that, my answer is "absolutely not." Baseball's willingness to distance itself from behavior it encouraged is pretty appalling. Moreover, Clemens was one of the defining players of his era. To exclude such a player from the HoF doesn't make any sense. Plenty of jerks, cheaters, and other assorted miscreants are already enshrined in Cooperstown. My view is that what really matters is whether a player was fundamentally important to the era of the sport in which he played.
 
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Is that really the pertinent question though? Did Clemens cheat? I'm about 99.99% certain he did.

That being said (and yes, "that being said" and "but" are essential equivalents), the most central question is whether cheating should categorically exclude a player from the HoF. And to that, my answer is "absolutely not." Baseball's willingness to distance itself from behavior it encouraged is pretty appalling. Moreover, Clemens was one of the defining players of his era. To exclude such a player from the HoF doesn't make any sense. Plenty of jerks, cheaters, and other assorted miscreants are already enshrined in Cooperstown. My view is that what really matters is whether a player was fundamentally important to the era of the sport in which he played.

And I'd say why do you think the HOF is so freaking important? Clemens made a choice that 95% of people would make to play better, longer and make a ton more money at the risk of getting enshrined in some museum. HOF is a fabrication of the mind, you can't have a discussion about baseball history without including Pete Rose and he's likely never getting into the HOF. But so what he's one of the best, most famous baseball players ever and he's got records, stats etc.. 'enshrined' in the baseball encylcopedia. So I say the HOF writers which currently are the old curmudgeons I mentioned can do whatever they want and I don't care. Its like arguing that the Academy of Motion Picture Sciences should retroactively vote The Shawshank Redemption or Pulp Fiction best picture of 1992 or give the films career achievement statues cuz they were much better movies than Forest Gump. Who cares, we are all going to watch the Shawshank & Pulp much more, quote them and reference them in pop-culture and future movies.

Likewise Clemens career is what it is regardless of posthumous accolades. I'm more interested in watching sports than caring about how 50-70yr old men vote on whose ugly bronze plaque goes in a museum in the middle of freakin nowhere.
 

Waquoit

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I'd respond with this.

In your opinion, did Clemens cheat? Yes or no. Not a "Yes.....but!"

I'm going with "no". It isn't cheating when it's approved by baseball, which it was at the time.
 

Fishy

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I honestly do not care whether he cheated or not.

I care that we keep giving government nitwits a free hand to spend any amount of money they wish to pursue people for nonsense.

These people are not being tried for taking steroids, they're being tried for saying they didn't - it is absurd.

And now, we can watch another $10M go down the rabbit hole when they start to chase Lance Armstrong again. And, what the heck, as a side bonus, let's interrupt a cancer charity while we're at it.
 
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OK ... let me take a contra-argument ...

First: Clemens fundamentally was brought to trial ... BECAUSE ... you can't have a High Profile guy lying blatantly to Congress. You have lots of people give testimony in bigtime stuff & there has to be a penalty to knowingly telling fibs. (and I think we can all agree that Clemens will pay a price).

This, btw, is totally NOT the Edwards case whereby I cannot believe we went to that expense to dive into that. For what? So that we can prevent a future prospective President from using wealthy people's money to pay off a mistress & illegitimate children? Campaign finance laws are virtually nil ... as you can now thrown money on the side in huge buckets.

Second: Good ol' Rusty took the young Prosecutors to school. This was, more than anything, a 100-56 whupping ... like UConn should do to Coppin State in the pre-season. Could you see this coming? Yup.

Some seem to point to this being an Obama Administration/Partisan thing. Steroid investigations/prosecution in baseball has been throughout the last decade. And ... we did get that rat-ba-tard Barry Bonds to sit in his $million home for 30 days.
 

pepband99

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I'm going with "no". It isn't cheating when it's approved by baseball, which it was at the time.

...if I hear one more idiot say this, my head will explode.

Steroids have always been ILLEGAL. It doesn't matter WTF "baseball" thinks. Even worse, show me where this was "approved"

Hang the fat bastard. :)
 

HuskyHawk

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I'd respond with this.

In your opinion, did Clemens cheat? Yes or no. Not a "Yes.....but!"

No. I don't think he used steroids. Probably used HGH, which is more useful for aging athletes. But baseball had not banned it at the time. In any event the HGH use came long after he already had several Cy Youngs and was an easy first ballot hall of famer.
 
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Don't think he will sniff Cooperstown even though he is qualified. No question that he got shot up in his fat behind with something. If he's voted in eventually I hope its after his death. He's an arrogant pr!ck.
 

prankster

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Can we now dispense with the government spending untold millions pursuing athletes it thinks took steroids who like playing video games so much that they want to start a company to make new ones?

It has been an amazing abuse of taxpayer dollars and it has accomplished what it always was destined to - absolutely nothing.
 
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