Reorganizing the NCAA's divisions

[shizzle787]

The NCAA started with one division, then split in two and now we have three divisions. I understand that there is increased costs that come with adding a fourth division, but it's time.

1. There are too many programs in Division 1. It has gotten bloated which is part of the reason the tournament expanded from 64 to 68.

2. The disparity in budgets at the Division 1 level is massive. I love the big tent nature of the top level, but there are too many dead weights that are milking NCAA credits they don't contribute to. Small schools in the top level are good in moderation.

3. There are likely a decent number of Division 3 schools that won't move up a level as they don't want to pay for a lot of scholarships, but are more than capable of competing at the Division 2 level.

I propose a 4-division model:

Division 1: full scholarships for all sports
Division 2: full scholarships for basketball and football and partial scholarships for other sports
Division 3: partial scholarships for some sports
Division 4: no scholarships

Conferences that would be guaranteed to be in Division 1:
B1G
SEC
ACC
Big 12
Pac-12
Big East
MW
AAC
Ivy
Sun Belt
MAC
C-USA
A-10
WCC
MVC

Conferences that could possibly be included to fill in the map:
CAA
Big Sky
Summit
America East
Patriot
Big West
SWAC

Conferences that don't make the cut (new Division 2):
SoCon
Horizon
OVC
MEAC
WAC
Big South
A-SUN
NEC
MAAC
Southland

Obviously, some of the schools in the ten leagues that don't make the cut would be picked up but the rest would drop into Division 2.

Division 2 would consist of these ten leagues plus the current top half of Division 2.

Division 3 would consist of the bottom half of the current Division 2 and the top third of the current Division 3.

Division 4 would consist of the rest of the current Division 3.

FBS would include:
P5+ Notre Dame
MW
AAC
Army
UConn
Liberty
UTEP
NMSU
App State
Marshall
S. Miss
C. Carolina

FCS would include:
Sun Belt
C-USA
MAC
UMass
MVFC
Big Sky
CAA
Patriot
Ivy
SWAC

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Shizzle, who exactly are you proposing this to? If the audience is those who can act on the proposal, I seriously doubt putting the proposal here would accomplish anything other than verifying a complete lack of credibility.

If the audience is a group of messages board posters who are incapable of even keeping a semi-intelligent discussion on track, well, you've found the right place but then it leads to the question: why.wate the time and effort to produce something like this?

 

[Exit 4]

Shizzle, who exactly are you proposing this to? If the audience is those who can act on the proposal, I seriously doubt putting the proposal here would accomplish anything other than verifying a complete lack of credibility.

If the audience is a group of messages board posters who are incapable of even keeping a semi-intelligent discussion on track, well, you've found the right place but then it leads to the question: why.wate the time and effort to produce something like this?

OCD - he's got it bad on CRA.

I have it bad on roster building.

It happens.

 

[noeynox]

Shizzle, who exactly are you proposing this to? If the audience is those who can act on the proposal, I seriously doubt putting the proposal here would accomplish anything other than verifying a complete lack of credibility.

If the audience is a group of messages board posters who are incapable of even keeping a semi-intelligent discussion on track, well, you've found the right place but then it leads to the question: why.wate the time and effort to produce something like this?

I was thinking the same. I love the content, but cannot imagine the effort.

 

[Ha Who]

Take it to CSNbbs

 

[ScottVib]

The NCAA started with one division, then split in two and now we have three divisions. I understand that there is increased costs that come with adding a fourth division, but it's time.

1. There are too many programs in Division 1. It has gotten bloated which is part of the reason the tournament expanded from 64 to 68.

2. The disparity in budgets at the Division 1 level is massive. I love the big tent nature of the top level, but there are too many dead weights that are milking NCAA credits they don't contribute to. Small schools in the top level are good in moderation.

3. There are likely a decent number of Division 3 schools that won't move up a level as they don't want to pay for a lot of scholarships, but are more than capable of competing at the Division 2 level.

I propose a 4-division model:

Division 1: full scholarships for all sports
Division 2: full scholarships for basketball and football and partial scholarships for other sports
Division 3: partial scholarships for some sports
Division 4: no scholarships

Conferences that would be guaranteed to be in Division 1:
B1G
SEC
ACC
Big 12
Pac-12
Big East
MW
AAC
Ivy
Sun Belt
MAC
C-USA
A-10
WCC
MVC

Based on your definition, I don't see anyway where your definition puts the Big East, WCC, MVC, etc in Division 1.

I think a more likely scenario is that Division 1 is predicated on offering football + X other sports and fully funding those sports to full cost of admission. The goal of the top end schools is to soak up more of that money... they'll become more selective by setting a bar that allows "anyone" to join and thereby avoid lawsuit, but at a cost prohibitive level to push out the smaller programs. Jacksonville State wants to be D1. Great offer full scholarships in 18 sports, including football while abiding by title IX. That kind of scenario gets to the point where the smaller schools are squeezed out and such that anyone not already in a P5 conference has serious decisions to make.

Division 2 becomes your non-football programs plus FCS and any other school that offers some partial money. Perhaps there is a sub-division in here.

Division 3 becomes non-scholarship

 

[shizzle787]

Based on your definition, I don't see anyway where your definition puts the Big East, WCC, MVC, etc in Division 1.

I think a more likely scenario is that Division 1 is predicated on offering football + X other sports and fully funding those sports to full cost of admission. The goal of the top end schools is to soak up more of that money... they'll become more selective by setting a bar that allows "anyone" to join and thereby avoid lawsuit, but at a cost prohibitive level to push out the smaller programs. Jacksonville State wants to be D1. Great offer full scholarships in 18 sports, including football while abiding by title IX. That kind of scenario gets to the point where the smaller schools are squeezed out and such that anyone not already in a P5 conference has serious decisions to make.

Division 2 becomes your non-football programs plus FCS and any other school that offers some partial money. Perhaps there is a sub-division in here.

Division 3 becomes non-scholarship

The major basketball programs will be playing at the top level.

 

[ScottVib]

We'll see (and most people would still regard all of the non P-5 + Big East as mid-major in basketball). If there is a break, I think FBS is going to separate by requiring football and enough sports to make it cost prohibitive for the less desirables to follow.. without making a delineation of what conferences or schools are invited to join (and inviting a lawsuit from those conferences not selected).

What does Alabama, Clemson, Kansas or Duke care if Gonzaga or Missouri State are still in the same division? They care about the dollars.. and even mighty Gonzaga doesn't bring enough extra dollars to be worth subsidizing the rest of their conference. Those schools not willing to play football/pay the price will be relegated to the kids table, while the autonomous conferences enjoy their separation and the added exposure that comes from being the top dogs.

 

[shizzle787]

We'll see (and most people would still regard all of the non P-5 + Big East as mid-major in basketball). If there is a break, I think FBS is going to separate by requiring football and enough sports to make it cost prohibitive for the less desirables to follow.. without making a delineation of what conferences or schools are invited to join (and inviting a lawsuit from those conferences not selected).

What does Alabama, Clemson, Kansas or Duke care if Gonzaga or Missouri State are still in the same division? They care about the dollars.. and even mighty Gonzaga doesn't bring enough extra dollars to be worth subsidizing the rest of their conference. Those schools not willing to play football/pay the price will be relegated to the kids table, while the autonomous conferences enjoy their separation and the added exposure that comes from being the top dogs.

The Big East makes more money than the AAC, Sun Belt, MAC, and C-USA. Only the MW is barely ahead, and the BE will pass it with a new TV deal.

 

[hoopsfan22]

We'll see (and most people would still regard all of the non P-5 + Big East as mid-major in basketball). If there is a break, I think FBS is going to separate by requiring football and enough sports to make it cost prohibitive for the less desirables to follow.. without making a delineation of what conferences or schools are invited to join (and inviting a lawsuit from those conferences not selected).

What does Alabama, Clemson, Kansas or Duke care if Gonzaga or Missouri State are still in the same division? They care about the dollars.. and even mighty Gonzaga doesn't bring enough extra dollars to be worth subsidizing the rest of their conference. Those schools not willing to play football/pay the price will be relegated to the kids table, while the autonomous conferences enjoy their separation and the added exposure that comes from being the top dogs.

The separation won't be by conference in the long run. No way will Ohio State remain attached at the hip to Northwestern or Alabama to Vandy when their revenue starts to hit a ceiling and max out. The top football schools will eventually go off and do their own thing and the TV networks will help make it happen. That will essentially be the only way to break through the next ceiling.

 

[ScottVib]

The separation won't be by conference in the long run. No way will Ohio State remain attached at the hip to Northwestern or Alabama to Vandy when their revenue starts to hit a ceiling and max out. The top football schools will eventually go off and do their own thing and the TV networks will help make it happen. That will essentially be the only way to break through the next ceiling.

I tend to agree. I just think the vehicle will be to establish a high minimum expenditure from members in that top tier and then let the schools self-elect whether or not to meet those membership requirements.

 

[CL82]

We'll see (and most people would still regard all of the non P-5 + Big East as mid-major in basketball).

The Big East is a high major conference in basketball. Pretty successful one too.

 

[Hoophound]

The Big East is a high major conference in basketball. Pretty successful one too.

Correct. ESPN, despite having no stake in the Big East, calls it a power conference. That says it all.

The Big East is very healthy and is considered very good.

 

[ScottVib]

The Big East is a high major conference in basketball. Pretty successful one too.

Yes. I said that (or so at least I thought that was clear). P5 + Big East. Everything else is mid-major. Ultimately I don't think that will matter if the big boys decide to split... they're not dragging along anyone who isn't willing to play the same game as them (which will include football).

 

[CL82]

Yes. I said that (or so at least I thought that was clear). P5 + Big East. Everything else is mid-major. Ultimately I don't think that will matter if the big boys decide to split... they're not dragging along anyone who isn't willing to play the same game as them (which will include football).

Ah OK, I didn't read it that way.

 

[Fishy]

The original poster put a lot of time and thought into his proposal.

I don’t know why.

 

[businesslawyer]

Shizzle, who exactly are you proposing this to? If the audience is those who can act on the proposal, I seriously doubt putting the proposal here would accomplish anything other than verifying a complete lack of credibility.

If the audience is a group of messages board posters who are incapable of even keeping a semi-intelligent discussion on track, well, you've found the right place but then it leads to the question: why.wate the time and effort to produce something like this?

If I didn’t know (or assume) better, I’d wonder if it’s time Shizzle discovers women to give him something to do.