rehashing our ACC snub

[upstater]

Then we aren't talking about the right numbers. We need to talk about ratings then, and how they are projected into dollar values.

Trust me, folks; the move was made on money. If anyone thinks there was some higher motive to choose the Ville over UConn based on anything other than money, I have some land to sell you in the Everglades...

Show us what you are talking about so at least we can figure out what you're discussing here.

 

[UConnDan97]

How in the world is anyone supposed to read your mind?

FSU, by the way, gets 75k for Bethune Cookman, and 75k for Syracuse, and 75k for a top 25 ranked ACC team. I'm not sure about this theory that they will draw a lot more fans with different opposition. Only archrival Miami created an uptick for them.

Then let's not look at FSU. Let's look at Wake. Or Duke. Or Miami. Or any other ACC school. Good God, man! I know that you understand what I'm saying, and I'm not sure why you are playing coy...

 

[whaler11]

Then let's not look at FSU. Let's look at Wake. Or Duke. Or Miami. Or any other ACC school. Good God, man! I know that you understand what I'm saying, and I'm not sure why you are playing coy...

He's got some weird blind spot about Louisville where he can't see how good their football team has been.

Call them LCC, mock their scumbag coaches, question the shady deal on Yum, yes they would let Ted Bundy in if he could run for 1,500 yards: but they put good teams on the field and won a lot of games.

 

[upstater]

Then let's not look at FSU. Let's look at Wake. Or Duke. Or Miami. Or any other ACC school. Good God, man! I know that you understand what I'm saying, and I'm not sure why you are playing coy...

I can only respond to things you say. How is anyone supposed to have a discussion here?

OK, let's look at Wake and Miami.

Wake first, 26k for Presbyterian, 26k for ULMonroe, 30k for NC State (a bump for extra NC State fans), 27k for Maryland, 30k for FSU, 28k for Duke.

Then comes Miami:

50k for Fla Atlantic, 77k for Florida (Tim Tebow day), 42k for Savannah st, 47k for Georgia Tech (less than for Fla. Atlantic), 49k for Virginia Tech, 44k for Virginia. Seems to me that schools like Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech and Virginia don't bring an influx of fans. In fact, you can argue Miami is better off playing FIU and FAU at home rather than ACC schools like the ones mentioned above.

The real test here is to see how many fans show up for say Boston College or Syracuse away games versus Virginia Tech games (BC/Cuse being a proxy for UConn, while Va Tech could seen as a proxy for Louisville (outside Virginia/NC because we know Va Tech fans travel well).

Then you'd see if there are any divergences between bottom ACC schools as attractors and top ACC schools. From looking at Miami, Duke and Wake Forest, it doesn't seem Virginia Tech and the like draw more fans.

Heck, Duke is even worse in this regard than the other two since more people went to see Troy St. than Miami, Fla.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Duke_Blue_Devils_football_team

 

[upstater]

He's got some weird blind spot about Louisville where he can't see how good their football team has been.

Call them LCC, mock their scumbag coaches, question the shady deal on Yum, yes they would let Ted Bundy in if he could run for 1,500 yards: but they put good teams on the field and won a lot of games.

Anything more irrelevant you have to add to this conversation?

FACT: UConn has more players in the NFL, and did back when this supposedly mattered as a criteria for adding teams.
FACT: The quality of the opponent does not seem to change attendance at any of the 4 schools that Dan mentioned.

Go ahead, ignore facts, that's what you like to do.

 

[whaler11]

Anything more irrelevant you have to add to this conversation?

FACT: UConn has more players in the NFL, and did back when this supposedly mattered as a criteria for adding teams.
FACT: The quality of the opponent does not seem to change attendance at any of the 4 schools that Dan mentioned.

Go ahead, ignore facts, that's what you like to do.

Fact: In football, Louisville was much more successful than UConn while they shared the Big East/AAC.

If you are dumb enough to believe that the quality of opponent doesn't change attendance you may want to check yourself into a hospital. You are suffering from a pretty traumatic brain injury.

 

[UConnDan97]

He's got some weird blind spot about Louisville where he can't see how good their football team has been.

Call them LCC, mock their scumbag coaches, question the shady deal on Yum, yes they would let Ted Bundy in if he could run for 1,500 yards: but they put good teams on the field and won a lot of games.

This is the unfortunate reality in this discussion. Unfortunately for us, the decision was not made during the time when they were led by Kragthorpe...

 

[upstater]

Fact: In football, Louisville was much more successful than UConn while they shared the Big East/AAC.

If you are dumb enough to believe that the quality of opponent doesn't change attendance you may want to check yourself into a hospital. You are suffering from a pretty traumatic brain injury.

The difference between UConn/Louisville means nada.

I posted the attendance for Miami, Duke, FSU and Wake forest, the four schools mentioned by Dan.

AND, again you write something totally irrelevant. This isn't a discussion about Louisville football versus UConn football. We were discussing TV markets and money.

 

[upstater]

This is the unfortunate reality in this discussion. Unfortunately for us, the decision was not made during the time when they were led by Kragthorpe...

I'm done on this. I keep providing the facts that you guys request, the $$, the attendance numbers from 4 different schools, and you guys ignore it. And then say I have a blind spot. It's hilarious. Go on doing what you do.

 

[whaler11]

The difference between UConn/Louisville means nada.

I posted the attendance for Miami, Duke, FSU and Wake forest, the four schools mentioned by Dan.

AND, again you write something totally irrelevant. This isn't a discussion about Louisville football versus UConn football. We were discussing TV markets and money.

You are using bogus numbers published by schools.

Miami's attendance numbers are less reliable than North Korea's World Cup scores. The schools just print a bunch of free tickets that fall into black holes and then publish what they distribute.

Maybe you'll understand this: Published attendance is just like a president filling out a US News survey.

 

[whaler11]

I'm done on this. I keep providing the facts that you guys request, the , the attendance numbers from 4 different schools, and you guys ignore it. And then say I have a blind spot. It's hilarious. Go on doing what you do.

When NickyNewark is liking your posts maybe it's time for some self-reflection?

 

[NickyNewark]

I'm done on this. I keep providing the facts that you guys request, the , the attendance numbers from 4 different schools, and you guys ignore it. And then say I have a blind spot. It's hilarious. Go on doing what you do.

Watching the back and forth of you guys is.. i hate to say it but.. hilarious upstater...now Im completely lost lol smh??

 

[whaler11]

Literally two seconds to look up Michigan's ticket prices for individual home games this season would make it clear that the opponent impacts attendance. They don't charge $35 for Utah State because the demand is the same as the $100 games.

 

[UConnDan97]

I'm done on this. I keep providing the facts that you guys request, the , the attendance numbers from 4 different schools, and you guys ignore it. And then say I have a blind spot. It's hilarious. Go on doing what you do.

I said, "or any other ACC school." I said, "...ratings numbers." I said a lot of things, but I just don't care to have this discussion any further with you. We're not getting anywhere....fast...

 

[pj]

I said, "or any other ACC school." I said, "...ratings numbers." I said a lot of things, but I just don't care to have this discussion any further with you. We're not getting anywhere....fast...

I want to know why you think we can go 13-0 yet not outdraw Louisville.

 

[UConnDan97]

I want to know why you think we can go 13-0 yet not outdraw Louisville.

PJ, you're killing me, dude. Seriously, you're killing me.

Do you think that our football team is as respected in the eyes of others (especially southerners) as the Ville is? I'm being serious, now. When people think of our football, they either think of the Fiesta Bowl that they believe we didn't belong in, or they think about the Pasqualoni years where we went "bowl-less". When they think of the Ville's football team, they think of Teddy Bridgewater or they think of them pasting Florida in a BCS bowl. That's a fact. And that has NOTHING to do with the fact that we're gonna go 13-0 this year!

This is not about my feelings for our team. Nor is it necessarily the reality of our future. But it's the current perception. And in college football, perception becomes the reality...

 

[Richmondhsky]

The re

PJ, you're killing me, dude. Seriously, you're killing me.

Do you think that our football team is as respected in the eyes of others (especially southerners) as the Ville is? I'm being serious, now. When people think of our football, they either think of the Fiesta Bowl that they believe we didn't belong in, or they think about the Pasqualoni years where we went "bowl-less". When they think of the Ville's football team, they think of Teddy Bridgewater or they think of them pasting Florida in a BCS bowl. That's a fact. And that has NOTHING to do with the fact that we're gonna go 13-0 this year!

This is not about my feelings for our team. Nor is it necessarily the reality of our future. But it's the current perception. And in college football, perception becomes the reality...

The reality of the perception outside of the NE is simply.....they DON'T remember we were in the Fiesta Bowl, they remember us playing the University of Richmond in FB...they think of us as a basketball school...damn good one but our FB program has zero status.

 

[pj]

PJ, you're killing me, dude. Seriously, you're killing me.

Do you think that our football team is as respected in the eyes of others (especially southerners) as the Ville is? I'm being serious, now. When people think of our football, they either think of the Fiesta Bowl that they believe we didn't belong in, or they think about the Pasqualoni years where we went "bowl-less". When they think of the Ville's football team, they think of Teddy Bridgewater or they think of them pasting Florida in a BCS bowl. That's a fact. And that has NOTHING to do with the fact that we're gonna go 13-0 this year!

This is not about my feelings for our team. Nor is it necessarily the reality of our future. But it's the current perception. And in college football, perception becomes the reality...

No, I don't think UConn football is respected. Louisville football is respected now, but a few years ago it was in CUSA and worse than mediocre. I think the current perception of UConn football is just as changeable as Louisville's past perception was. There is a predominant "what have you done for me lately" attitude. And if UConn were to go 13-0, as you so presciently predict, we would soon rise above Louisville in people's football perception.

Regardless of that, it's a short-sighted attitude to grade universities and athletic departments on recent performance of the football team. The ACC just did that, but it was under great stress. Also, it was choosing between two athletic programs very similar in stature, so small considerations could tip the balance.

The B1G has smarter people thinking about realignment from a secure position and able to take a long-term view. They also have a different model which rewards state flagships with strong loyalty and values basketball more than ESPN does. (ESPN has a ton of pro and college winter sports inventory and won't pay up for an additional bit of college basketball; the BTN has no pro sports inventory and gains great benefit from quality winter sports.) Given that the ACC has sold itself lock stock and barrel to ESPN, UConn isn't as valuable to them, because our quality sports aren't needed by ESPN. But UConn is extremely valuable to the B1G, for its basketball, multiple quality sports, domination of Connecticut, reach into New York and New England, and football potential.

What I'm saying is that, among the decision-makers I care about, Louisville's recent football success won't matter a damn. Think about it from the B1G's perspective. They would never in a million years consider Louisville, even if Louisville won a national championship in football, or ten national championships. They will consider UConn, even if our football team stays mediocre.

 

[Sea Goat]

No, I don't think UConn football is respected. Louisville football is respected now, but a few years ago it was in CUSA and worse than mediocre. I think the current perception of UConn football is just as changeable as Louisville's past perception was. There is a predominant "what have you done for me lately" attitude. And if UConn were to go 13-0, as you so presciently predict, we would soon rise above Louisville in people's football perception.

Regardless of that, it's a short-sighted attitude to grade universities and athletic departments on recent performance of the football team. The ACC just did that, but it was under great stress. Also, it was choosing between two athletic programs very similar in stature, so small considerations could tip the balance.

The B1G has smarter people thinking about realignment from a secure position and able to take a long-term view. They also have a different model which rewards state flagships with strong loyalty and values basketball more than ESPN does. (ESPN has a ton of pro and college winter sports inventory and won't pay up for an additional bit of college basketball; the BTN has no pro sports inventory and gains great benefit from quality winter sports.) Given that the ACC has sold itself lock stock and barrel to ESPN, UConn isn't as valuable to them, because our quality sports aren't needed by ESPN. But UConn is extremely valuable to the B1G, for its basketball, multiple quality sports, domination of Connecticut, reach into New York and New England, and football potential.

What I'm saying is that, among the decision-makers I care about, Louisville's recent football success won't matter a damn. Think about it from the B1G's perspective. They would never in a million years consider Louisville, even if Louisville won a national championship in football, or ten national championships. They will consider UConn, even if our football team stays mediocre.

I don't want the B1G just because of the ACC snub of UConn. I think the ACC's expansion has been expedient and reactive. The moves have been stupid and short sighted IMO. The B1G is clearly a superior opportunity for UConn - let's hope it happens.

 

[NickyNewark]

No, I don't think UConn football is respected. Louisville football is respected now, but a few years ago it was in CUSA and worse than mediocre. I think the current perception of UConn football is just as changeable as Louisville's past perception was. There is a predominant "what have you done for me lately" attitude. And if UConn were to go 13-0, as you so presciently predict, we would soon rise above Louisville in people's football perception.

Regardless of that, it's a short-sighted attitude to grade universities and athletic departments on recent performance of the football team. The ACC just did that, but it was under great stress. Also, it was choosing between two athletic programs very similar in stature, so small considerations could tip the balance.

The B1G has smarter people thinking about realignment from a secure position and able to take a long-term view. They also have a different model which rewards state flagships with strong loyalty and values basketball more than ESPN does. (ESPN has a ton of pro and college winter sports inventory and won't pay up for an additional bit of college basketball; the BTN has no pro sports inventory and gains great benefit from quality winter sports.) Given that the ACC has sold itself lock stock and barrel to ESPN, UConn isn't as valuable to them, because our quality sports aren't needed by ESPN. But UConn is extremely valuable to the B1G, for its basketball, multiple quality sports, domination of Connecticut, reach into New York and New England, and football potential.

What I'm saying is that, among the decision-makers I care about, Louisville's recent football success won't matter a damn. Think about it from the B1G's perspective. They would never in a million years consider Louisville, even if Louisville won a national championship in football, or ten national championships. They will consider UConn, even if our football team stays mediocre.

As usual pj very eloquently put !! I think the B1G knows what their product is and who they want to appeal to and tap into it because it theirs and Swoffys product is already bought and sold so take their marching orders from the eSpin who has more focus on their baby the SEC who if they pushed an ACCN it would be a drain on their SEC FB moneytree. Espin knows where their bread is buttered and leave the ACC with just enough of the margerine to keep them afloat!!

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Things that did not matter in realignment:

The lawsuit. Louisville screwed VTech so badly when the Metro Conference came apart that the lawsuit looks like a spilled cup of water by comparison. VTech managed to get past it.

Things that did matter:

UConn coaching situation: If the decision was made today, UConn is picked with thundering applause. Louisville has an aging basketball coach and a dirtbag football coach. Unfortunately, back then, even UConn was unwilling to endorse their basketball coach (a huge mistake in my opinion), and Pasqualoni was sleeping on the sidelines between Matlock reruns.

Boston College - Boston College does not want UConn in the ACC. It is reality, but something that Manuel and Herbst should have been able to manage.

Academics - I think this was important for a few schools, but surprisingly, one of the snootiest schools academically, BCU, didn't care. That said, the Tobacco Road schools care a lot which is why they were pro-UConn.

Market - Another place where UConn probably won against Louisville. We border NYC where the ACC and Big 10 were fighting it out for market share. Louisville is an island on the corner of the Big 10 and SEC that will never be the primary draw in their own modest market.

Leadership - UConn got crushed in this department. Up until 24 hours prior to the announcement, UConn was a "done deal" to the ACC. Herbst and Manuel blew it, pure and simple. Manuel should have been fired for that.

 

[SubbaBub]

Things that did matter:

Boston College - Boston College does not want UConn in the ACC. It is reality, but something that Manuel and Herbst should have been able to manage.

It boggles the mind that people still don't get this. It was an inability to get a consensus of ACC decision makers to invite UConn. BC was a major reason along with FSU and the other southern FB programs wanting the better FB program (UL). I know head to head, Krags, blah blah. They won high profile games and BCS bowls, they were a bigger FB name, from a southern state, and had as solid a hoops history.

If you want to attribute swings votes or "yea whatever" votes to the old boy network Jurich had over the UCONN team or lingering dislike for Calhoun or Cuse giving the 'we'd rather not have them with us' high sign, I won't argue, but that's 10% at most. FB was 60% and BC was 30%.

 

[upstater]

It boggles the mind that people still don't get this. It was an inability to get a consensus of ACC decision makers to invite UConn. BC was a major reason along with FSU and the other southern FB programs wanting the better FB program (UL). I know head to head, Krags, blah blah. They won high profile games and BCS bowls, they were a bigger FB name, from a southern state, and had as solid a hoops history.

If you want to attribute swings votes or "yea whatever" votes to the old boy network Jurich had over the UCONN team or lingering dislike for Calhoun or Cuse giving the 'we'd rather not have them with us' high sign, I won't argue, but that's 10% at most. FB was 60% and BC was 30%.

I don't know of a single person here who disagrees with the point about Louisville football being the reason they were added. Everyone understands this.

The point of contention was money earlier in this thread, which means market.

Most UConn fans bring up BC in the context of 2011 and the selection of Pitt/Cuse.

Let's not get things confused.

There were 4 different poachings of the BE by the ACC. BC figured against UConn in the 3rd poaching. The 4th poaching was really all about FSU and Clemson asserting their preferences for football.

I think we tend to mash all these factors together as though this happened all at once.

 

[amory]

Paul Pasqualoni may have single-handedly ruined UConn's chance of ever being in a top conference again. He's literally the worst thing that's ever happened to our athletic department. Even if we're mediocre after Edsall leaves, going 6-6 and playing in a bowl game each season (even if we don't win them), I think we get into the ACC. His utter incompetence and the way he stopped our momentum cold and drove the program into the ground killed any shot we had at getting invited anywhere. Our football has been an embarrassment for 3 years now.

We can talk about the B1G and the ACC and finding a realignment partner and the AAU and all this other stuff until we're blue in the face. Our only real hope is Bob Diaco turning us into a perennial 9 or 10 win team and winning bowl games. That'll up our attendance and get us some looks, especially if we continue to succeed the way we do in basketball.

 

[upstater]

Paul Pasqualoni may have single-handedly ruined UConn's chance of ever being in a top conference again. He's literally the worst thing that's ever happened to our athletic department. Even if we're mediocre after Edsall leaves, going 6-6 and playing in a bowl game each season (even if we don't win them), I think we get into the ACC. His utter incompetence and the way he stopped our momentum cold and drove the program into the ground killed any shot we had at getting invited anywhere. Our football has been an embarrassment for 3 years now.

We can talk about the B1G and the ACC and finding a realignment partner and the AAU and all this other stuff until we're blue in the face. Our only real hope is Bob Diaco turning us into a perennial 9 or 10 win team and winning bowl games. That'll up our attendance and get us some looks, especially if we continue to succeed the way we do in basketball.

While I agree with much of what you write, imagine the sour pusses on the faces of the big Louisville backers in the ACC when Paul pasqualoni beat a ranked Charlie Strong team AT Louisville in front of a half-filled stadium.

 

[UConnJim]

There is another factor that has been overlooked.

In my opinion, ultimately, the ACC thinks they will end up with 16 all sports schools. I really think they believe ND will be forced to join a conference for all sports in the future. They may be wrong, but I think that is the way they are thinking.

When you look at options out there for the ACC replacement of Maryland, it really came down to Louisville vs UConn. Clearly, there are plusses and minuses to both schools that have been rehashed in this thread, but Louisville had a possible other conference option and UConn did not. If the ACC took UConn, and Louisville went to the Big 12, who would be the options at #16 if ND joined the conference for football? Cincinnati? UCF? USF? They don't seem to be real options for the ACC, although Cincinnati could be a possibility.

 

[pj]

There is another factor that has been overlooked.

In my opinion, ultimately, the ACC thinks they will end up with 16 all sports schools. I really think they believe ND will be forced to join a conference for all sports in the future. They may be wrong, but I think that is the way they are thinking.

When you look at options out there for the ACC replacement of Maryland, it really came down to Louisville vs UConn. Clearly, there are plusses and minuses to both schools that have been rehashed in this thread, but Louisville had a possible other conference option and UConn did not. If the ACC took UConn, and Louisville went to the Big 12, who would be the options at #16 if ND joined the conference for football? Cincinnati? UCF? USF? They don't seem to be real options for the ACC, although Cincinnati could be a possibility.

Yes, agreed, I've previously argued this was the decisive consideration.

But ... it may backfire against the ACC. I think for political reasons the B12 was always going to avoid expansion, as it destabilizes the conference in the long run. And the B1G has always been planning entry into the northeast, which makes UConn attractive to them. The ACC may have miscalculated in who to take. We shall see.

 

[The Funster]

I think it will be years before the truth comes out on who supported whom behind closed doors. Penn State for years thought Syracuse was one of the schools blocking them from the Big East, but turns out we were a supporter. I could be wrong but I suspect Syracuse was a supporter for UConn.

I bet it actually went something like this:
- D Gross: yes, we like UConn. Good regional rival. Great hoops. Close road trips.
-Swofford: Daryl, they dont have the votes. Florida State and Clemson want Louisville. What do you think.
- D Gross: yes, we like Louisville. Great basketball, up and coming athletic department, and we've enjoyed beating them in football recently.

All I am saying we dont know what was said, who supported whom, and the context in which it happend.

The Cuse isnt a bunch of nancies, nor are we afraid of UConn. Respected rival, yes, but not afraid.

I don't think Cuse is afraid of UConn as BC was afraid of UConn. I think whatever Cuse decided was more pragmatic than emotional. They may not have actively stuck up for UConn but I don't think they kicked us to curb so much as went along with the way the wind was already blowing in the ACC regarding Louisville. BC was scared. No doubt about that.

 

[UConnJim]

Yes, agreed, I've previously argued this was the decisive consideration.

But ... it may backfire against the ACC. I think for political reasons the B12 was always going to avoid expansion, as it destabilizes the conference in the long run. And the B1G has always been planning entry into the northeast, which makes UConn attractive to them. The ACC may have miscalculated in who to take. We shall see.

There are only 3 stable conferences: B1G, SEC, and Pac 12. If the SEC asked Clemson or FSU to join, they would join. I don't see the Pac 12 schools joining any other conference as they are too distant to other conferences. But, I could see 4 Big 12 teams joining the Pac 12 at some point or 2 joining the SEC. The B1G seems solid, especially with the BTN, although I did think at one time the ACC had a small shot at PSU.

The Big 12 at ten schools is not stable in the long run.

 

[upstater]

I don't think Cuse is afraid of UConn as BC was afraid of UConn. I think whatever Cuse decided was more pragmatic than emotional. They may not have actively stuck up for UConn but I don't think they kicked us to curb so much as went along with the way the wind was already blowing in the ACC regarding Louisville. BC was scared. No doubt about that.

Cuse's huge decline in football coincided with UConn's rise. No more Tebucky Jones's and Dwight Freeney's for them, nor Floyd Little's for that matter. Plus, they could own NYC in bball once again.