Rebecca's and Kara's Top 5

[Alydar]

So neither Lobo nor Lawson picked Notre Dame. I'm shocked ..... not. They have been telling us for the last 2 years that Diggins was the heart and soul of Notre Dame, that their entire offense and defense revolved around her, etc. What else could they do when she left? Tell us that Notre Dame will not lose much? Of course not. That might make people think that the "3 to see" was nothing more than an attempt to create interest in their upcoming WNBA season.

The loss of Diggins will hurt, but not so much in production. A lot of the value of a star player is that her teammates play with the confidence that comes from knowing your team has the best player on the floor. Whether or not it's true doesn't matter, only that it is truely believed.

Diggins was the first player in years that shook UConn's confidence. Loss of confidence leads to mistakes. Usually it's UConn doing that to other teams. The last 2 years Diggins did it to UConn. She got into Hartley's head. And she made her team see that UConn was fallible.

Prior to their game on Jan 20 at Tenn they have only a game at Penn State that might test them. (DePaul at home perhaps) The Tenn game may test my opinion if the game is competitive. How will they play in a hostile environment? Only the shadow knows.

 

[DaddyChoc]

Diggins' success or lack of success in the WNBA is not relevant to how ND will do without her. It was not surprising to see her struggle in the WNBA because the way she played at ND (the ball in her hands a lot) was never going to be successful in the WNBA. I watched some of her games where she kept dribbling the ball and was unable to get by average WNBA defenders which was never the case at ND. Diggins' struggles were reminiscent of Renee's struggles; both are small and in college their coaches put the ball in their hands a lot. That approach doesn't work in the WNBA.

ND's other players benefited from Diggins' ability to handle the ball and create shots for herself and for them. That's not going to happen with Allen so everyone on the team will need to adjust. As for ND's plethora of guards, Muffet announced before the European tour that 3 players would compete for the starting pg spot (Allen, Holloway and Mabrey) and after the tour Allen won the job and the other 2 didn't impress enough to be the backup (Allen struggled against the better European competition as well) as McBride is now the back-up pg going in to the season.

ND will be very good because it still has an excellent coach and 3 very good players (Loyd, McBride and Achonwa) and will have a good shot at the FF with a favorable match-up and the benefits of homecourt.

"Post of the Month"

 

[Fightin Choke]

I think ND in the top five....but the year after that, they will be "really" interesting, and could give us serious trouble once again.

I'm not sure Notre Dame will be better next year, we lose Achonwa, McBride, and Braker (3 starters and 2 potential AA's) to graduation. The rising senior class is not strong at all, with just bench players Markisha Wright and Whitney Holloway. (Madison Cable, the only Hoopsgurlz top 100 recruit is also in that class at 52nd, has an extra year of eligibility left, as she was injured her entire freshman year and first played last season.) But two years from now the Irish will have seniors Jewell Loyd, Cable, Michaela Mabrey and Hannah Huffman, juniors Taya Reimer, Lindsay Allen, Kristina Nelson and Diamond Thompson, sophomores Brianna Turner, Kathryn Westbeld, and Mychal Johnson, and whatever freshmen Muffet gets to accompany 2015 verbal Ali Patberg.

 

[Fightin Choke]

2011 Stats
Kelly 2011 stats - 7.8 ppg at 42.5%, 6.7 rpg, 142 A, 86 TO, 22 Blk, 70 stls 1.65 A/TO
McBride 2013 stats - 15.9 ppg at 45.3%, 4.6 rpg, 88 A, 73 TO, 8 Blk, 57 stls, 1.2 A/TO
Obviously McBride scores more, but Kelly as we know is more important for all the other things she does and between rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals and being the superior defender the overall effect on the final score is probably a wash between the two.

Obviously, this is a UConn board, but I think most people would expect Kayla McBride's senior campaign to be better than Kelly Faris's sophomore season, so I wouldn't call it a wash. And this is from an Irish fan who loves Faris's game. Faris is a great defender and teammate, and on a team with a superstar scoring option like Maya, one could argue that defensive contributions would better complement that team than scoring, but how valuable would it have been for that final Maya squad to have a senior McBride as a second scoring option? And McBride's defense is quite good, partly due to her strength.

 

[chrissaran]

Icebear, just because you say I don't understand UConn's offense doesn't mean you're right. When have you seen UConn run a two post offense, hi-lo? They don't because Breanna floats. She never stays in one place, which is a strength of the UConn offense. When she keeps moving, it's even more difficult to guard her. After the semi final against ND, they asked her just that. She said it's difficult to guard her because she keeps moving. You're the one who doesn't understand the two post offense. Also, I don't need to clarify what I said. I can't help it that people can't understand simple concepts.

 

[mhshuskies]

I think there is too much credit given to nd. Neither Kara nor Rebecca mentioned nd for a reason. Other than McBride I don't see a top player on their team. Ochomwa is soft and only hits 3 foot open layups. I would take Hammond over her, that is why Geno recruited her. Loyd looked lost in the semi, KML abused her. How will Ochomwa or Loyd do without the opposing defense focused elsewhere?

 

[DaddyChoc]

I think there is too much credit given to nd. Neither Kara nor Rebecca mentioned nd for a reason. Other than McBride I don't see a top player on their team. Ochomwa is soft and only hits 3 foot open layups. I would take Hammond over her, that is why Geno recruited her. Loyd looked lost in the semi, KML abused her. How will Ochomwa or Loyd do without the opposing defense focused elsewhere?

so Diggins will be missed?

 

[Fightin Choke]

I think there is too much credit given to nd. Neither Kara nor Rebecca mentioned nd for a reason. Other than McBride I don't see a top player on their team. Ochomwa is soft and only hits 3 foot open layups. I would take Hammond over her, that is why Geno recruited her. Loyd looked lost in the semi, KML abused her. How will Ochomwa or Loyd do without the opposing defense focused elsewhere?

I don't really understand your post, and am especially confused by the bolded portion (did you mean NOT focused elsewhere?) Concerning the FF game last season, several posters have said that Notre Dame was blown out by UConn, but I think people are forgetting the game and only seeing the final score. It's true that no Irish starter had a good game. UConn played excellent defense and Notre Dame missed makeable shots when they were available. But despite that, UConn only led by 6 points (61-55) with 5:45 left in the game. Then UConn went on one of their patented runs, and ND resorted to fouling to try to get back into the game, and UConn made 16 straight free throws. UConn performed exceptionally well, but the game was closer than many seem to recall.

As for this season, Notre Dame blew out Louisville both times last season (93-64 and 83-59), so you have to ask yourself if Diggins is worth 26.5 points per game, because both Kara and Rebecca had Louisville in the top 5 but not Notre Dame.

 

[doggydaddy]

so you have to ask yourself if Diggins is worth 26.5 points per game, because both Kara and Rebecca had Louisville in the top 5 but not Notre Dame.

Of course, you need to include the injured players coming back who didn't play last year for Louisville and the improved play in beating Baylor, Tennessee and California.

And Diggins? Well, she averaged 17.1 ppg and 6.1 apg.

Looks like she accounted for 29.3 ppg to me.

 

[stwainfan]

1 UConn
2 Duke
3 Tennessee
4 Notre Dame
5 Louisville

 

[JS]

UcMiami, I can't stand when people can't read. . . . When you learn how to read, you can criticize me. Until then, keep your posts to yourself. You're embarrassing yourself.

This sort of insulting, bickering tone is a blemish on an otherwise interesting thread.

Stop getting so personal. Argue the substance of your position and leave it at that.

 

[doggydaddy]

1 UConn
2 Duke
3 Tennessee
4 Notre Dame
5 Louisville

It's not a prediction thread.

 

[Fightin Choke]

Of course, you need to include the injured players coming back who didn't play last year for Louisville and the improved play in beating Baylor, Tennessee and California.

The player returning from injury should certainly be considered, but did Louisville really change that much between their 24-point loss to Notre Dame in the BE tournament semi's on March 11th and their 33-point loss to UConn in the NC final? I agree they had a nice run, but I really didn't feel they were the second best team last season.

And Diggins? Well, she averaged 17.1 ppg and 6.1 apg.

Looks like she accounted for 29.3 ppg to me.

If you count both points scored and assists x2, then the sum of the individuals' contributions would exceed the points scored by the team (by assists x2), so there's something wrong with your method. It's like when people say a baseball player with 90 runs scored and 100 rbi's has account for 190 of a team's runs scored. So if a player hits a solo homerun they account for 2 runs?

 

[doggydaddy]

The player returning from injury should certainly be considered, but did Louisville really change that much between their 24-point loss to Notre Dame in the BE tournament semi's on March 11th and their 33-point loss to UConn in the NC final? I agree they had a nice run, but I really didn't feel they were the second best team last season.


If you count both points scored and assists x2, then the sum of the individuals' contributions would exceed the points scored by the team (by assists x2), so there's something wrong with your method. It's like when people say a baseball player with 90 runs scored and 100 rbi's has account for 190 of a team's runs scored. So if a player hits a solo homerun they account for 2 runs?

I'm just giving you a possible reason that two highly respected analysts have Louisville ahead of ND and don't have ND in the top 5. My own personal list has ND at 3.

I won't get into the math. I'll just say that I like my way better.

 

[Icebear]

Icebear, just because you say I don't understand UConn's offense doesn't mean you're right. When have you seen UConn run a two post offense, hi-lo? They don't because Breanna floats. She never stays in one place, which is a strength of the UConn offense. When she keeps moving, it's even more difficult to guard her. After the semi final against ND, they asked her just that. She said it's difficult to guard her because she keeps moving. You're the one who doesn't understand the two post offense. Also, I don't need to clarify what I said. I can't help it that people can't understand simple concepts.

Meyers described it correctly. You have not. They do post up in the high and low within the motion of the offense. They do not hold those positions because it is a motion offense that doesn't mean, however, that they do not work out of classic high low exchanges. Those have included, KML, Stef, Stewie, and Morgan. It is simply wrong to say there are no High low post principles executed within the offense. One of the strengths of UCONN's read motion offense is that it reacts to what the defense offers and exploits it as available including the high low post.

Now if you want to identify the particular high low post offense that it isn't that it very possible to do. It does, however, have some common characteristics with Bill Self's Motion Offense.

 

[Geno-ista]

Notre Dame lost three starters; they also lost Brittany Mallory. Notre Dame will be better than Louisville, without question. Who would you rather have McBride or Shimmel? Shimmel is all flash and no consistency. Another volume shooter. Who would you rather have Ochonwa or Hammond? Again no contest. Lloyd will be even better and they have a strong freshman class. It is difficult to win an NC with a freshman guard. UConn found that out. However, other than Maya, this ND team is better than UConn during Maya's senior season.

I submit that Notre Dame was better than U Conn that year . ND had experience and depth. Our Achilles' tendon was exposed the second Dolson got her 2nd foul early in ame.

 

[Icebear]

I don't consider ND to be a better team. They were an equal team for the last two years. If they were truly better they would have dominated in play more than they did. Freaky things like streaks happen in sports and those things end, too. Over half of those ND wins easily might have been won by a bounce of the ball on the floor or off the rim. In 2004 the Yankees won the first 3 games of the ALCS for all intent and purpose it was considered over then the Red Sox did something amazing they won the next 8 games they played winning the ALCS and the World Series. Which was aberrant the 3 won by the Yankees or the 4/8 won by the Sox? I still don't know.

An 18 point win by UCONN was much more a act of dominance but even that can be questioned. We'll see what happens this year.

 

[UConnCat]

I don't really understand your post, and am especially confused by the bolded portion (did you mean NOT focused elsewhere?) Concerning the FF game last season, several posters have said that Notre Dame was blown out by UConn, but I think people are forgetting the game and only seeing the final score. It's true that no Irish starter had a good game. UConn played excellent defense and Notre Dame missed makeable shots when they were available. But despite that, UConn only led by 6 points (61-55) with 5:45 left in the game. Then UConn went on one of their patented runs, and ND resorted to fouling to try to get back into the game, and UConn made 16 straight free throws. UConn performed exceptionally well, but the game was closer than many seem to recall.

As for this season, Notre Dame blew out Louisville both times last season (93-64 and 83-59), so you have to ask yourself if Diggins is worth 26.5 points per game, because both Kara and Rebecca had Louisville in the top 5 but not Notre Dame.

Although the game was within 6 points with 6 mins left, it never felt like UConn was on the verge of losing control of the game (despite some dopey turnovers). I felt the same way in the games UConn lost to ND; the scoreboard showed a close game but ND seemed to be more in control. UConn's possession after ND cut the lead to 6 was and is my favorite possession of the semi-final game. Kelly Faris grabbed 3 offensive rebounds and the possession ended with Stewart driving to the basket and scoring over Achonwa. It was vintage Faris and why she'll be missed.

Diggins had that unique ability to get her teammates to raise their level of play to match hers. She set the tone for her team and it was a very aggressive and confident tone. The exception was the semi-final game against UConn when the tone she set was tentative and tight. She took ill-advised shots and short-armed very open shots and her teammates followed her lead (Achonwa struggled to hold on to the ball, McBride took too many hero shots).

How ND plays without Diggins, particularly when tested against better teams, will be one of the more interesting storylines in the upcoming season.

 

[Geno-ista]

I don't consider ND to be a better team. They were an equal team for the last two years. If they were truly better they would have dominated in play more than they did. Freaky things like streaks happen in sports and those things end, too. Over half of those ND wins easily might have been won by a bounce of the ball on the floor or off the rim. In 2004 the Yankees won the first 3 games of the ALCS for all intent and purpose it was considered over then the Red Sox did something amazing they won the next 8 games they played winning the ALCS and the World Series. Which was aberrant the 3 won by the Yankees or the 4/8 won by the Sox? I still don't know.

An 18 point win by UCONN was much more a act of dominance but even that can be questioned. We'll see what happens this year.

Great points and it has been an unbelievable rivalry. I just thought N Dame was the better team Bria's and Steph's freshman year. This past year I thought we were the better team on paper- when Stewie became Stewie that eventually happened. Amazing stuff rue match ups etc... With my gang, I would have bet money on semi vs N dame that we would win going away. That game was not really that close. N Dam's body language was negative early. You are right - we were in position to win every game this year. Inthought our N Championship ended when Samarie Walker shipped out . We had zero depth at the post. It reared it's head in a regional vs Georgetown and the semis vs N Dame. but we're probably splitting hairs!

 

[Icebear]

I agree about Stef and Bria's freshman year. That is the reason I limited it to the last two.

As was said earlier, even when ND cut the game to 6 late they did not feel like a threat.

 

[Phil]

The player returning from injury should certainly be considered, but did Louisville really change that much between their 24-point loss to Notre Dame in the BE tournament semi's on March 11th and their 33-point loss to UConn in the NC final? I agree they had a nice run, but I really didn't feel they were the second best team last season.


If you count both points scored and assists x2, then the sum of the individuals' contributions would exceed the points scored by the team (by assists x2), so there's something wrong with your method. It's like when people say a baseball player with 90 runs scored and 100 rbi's has account for 190 of a team's runs scored. So if a player hits a solo homerun they account for 2 runs?

Actually, that's a plausible metric.

But you have to adjust the denominator as well. For each player, add points scored plus points assisted. Do the same for the teams. The take a ratio. Diggins "accounts" for 29 points, but out of a larger total, probably 120 or so.

 

[chrissaran]

KML abused a lot of players. Lloyd was just a freshman, who happened to beat out Stewie for best freshman in the Big East, no small accomplishment.

 

[UConn8flags]

I see the Final Four consisting of:
UCONN
Maryland
Tenn
Duke

 

[DishNSwish]

Rebecca and Stephanie White are my two guests on this week's Dishin & Swishin podcast, posting around 3 pm ET on www.hoopfeed.com