Ray Allen

[The Viking]

The Celtics didn't want Ray and they're paying the price now.

What do you mean they didn't want him? When they're season was in the tter and they were about to trade him to a good team at the deadline?
Or when they offered him a 2/12 mil deal at the end of the year only to be "beat"by a 3/9 mil deal?

 

[UConn990411]

Which shi**y team do you keep referencing?

By the way you're a clown. You think NY fans don't think highly of themselves? Let's just stop calling out fanbases because I have my reasons why I might think the Boston fanbase is better and you probably have your own for why the NY fanbase is better. Even though you're probably wrong, we'll just be going in circles and its pointless.

Whoa there.

mau and I have some intense history going back to The Baseball board. If anyone's gonna call him a clown in this thread, it's gonna be me.

 

[Deepster]

Hmm...let's put some context in your comments...

I honestly don't remember Vaughn and Pedro being steamrolled by the Boston fanbase. Fill me in. Leave the media out of it, we're talking fan bases here right? Pedro could run for mayor right now and win and Vaughn is still loved by a lot of Sox fans as much for his charity stuff as what he did when he was here.

Clemens got a great hand when he walked off the mound the final time in 96 and even when he came back with Toronto and struck out 15. There were so many cheers on his last K you'd think he was still wearing the home whites. When he forced his way onto the Yankees he was pounded with boos. He had detractors for holding out for huge contracts quite a bit, not winning "the big one" and being a prickly personality, a guy who refused to carry his bags, for example. I liked the guy buy he wasn't america's sweetheart..overall before he forcing his way onto NY he was still well liked even while on Toronto (especially when he would still drill Jeter on and on while wearing a Jays jersey).

Nomar, you could write a book on Nomar's ending. a lot of things factored in there. It's not like *all* Sox fans were glad to see him go when it happened. Many thought Theo was nuts at the time but it ended up working out. It's still unfortunate he couldn't have been a part of them winning it.

1) Since you don't remember Vaughn and Pedro being steamrolled that's the law now? Both of them were lauded as being greedy (just like Ray) when the Sox didn't want to pay them.

2) I was at the game that Clemens returned to Fenway and struck out 15. That was not his reception during his warmups and his first few innings. They threw fake dollar bills at him and had signs ripping him apart. In fact, last season (2012) Clemens went to a game at Fenway, was shown on a scoreboard and the entire place booed him.

3) Sox fans mentioned Nomar in the same breath as Bird and Orr....then couldn't wait to ride him out of town on a rail.

You don't agree? That's fine. Doesn't make you right though. Sox fans turn quick on guys who leave and send them on their way in a bad breakup. They may play kissyface years later, but a lot of Boston sports fans have done exactly what they did to Ray last night to a lot of other athletes....and I don't think (based on my opinion) that other teams do it as broadly as they do.

 

[nomar]

Not going to respond to all points (we've been over all of them ad nauseam-- I'm pretty sure you have a Google Alert set up for "Boston sports fans"), but I will point that you are totally wrong about Pedro. It's fantasy. Maybe you're confusing him with Damon. But every Sox fan knew Pedro was gone and everybody was grateful for his contribution. He just came back to the organization.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Not going to respond to all points (we've been over all of them ad nauseam-- I'm pretty sure you have a Google Alert set up for "Boston sports fans"), but I will point that you are totally wrong about Pedro. It's fantasy. Maybe you're confusing him with Damon. But every Sox fan knew Pedro was gone and everybody was grateful for his contribution. He just came back to the organization.

Agree. The Pedro thing was that Boston fans didn't support spending the money that the Mets did on him - Sox fans 'agreed' with management on not offering a 4th or 5th year whatever it was. No one ever disliked Pedro or didn't want to keep seeing him pitch. We all knew (baseball fans, everyone but maybe Grady Little*) that it was simply a matter of time before Pedro's arm and body betrayed him.

* Pretty successful manager who is now routinely 'thrown under the bus' but of course this is mostly by media and then fans might regurgitate the stories. Does it matter that he f-ed up royally in the alcs in his last act by making an incredibly obvious mistake? Or in order for Sox fans to be truly loyal and holy should they only evaluate Grady's entire body of work? What are the implicatiions for either treatment other than avoiding similar hypocritical judgement by opposing fanbases?

 

[mauconnfan]

Whoa there.

mau and I have some intense history going back to The Baseball board. If anyone's gonna call him a clown in this thread, it's gonna be me.

Thanks 990411, I think!!

 

[mauconnfan]

1) Since you don't remember Vaughn and Pedro being steamrolled that's the law now? Both of them were lauded as being greedy (just like Ray) when the Sox didn't want to pay them.

2) I was at the game that Clemens returned to Fenway and struck out 15. That was not his reception during his warmups and his first few innings. They threw fake dollar bills at him and had signs ripping him apart. In fact, last season (2012) Clemens went to a game at Fenway, was shown on a scoreboard and the entire place booed him.

3) Sox fans mentioned Nomar in the same breath as Bird and Orr....then couldn't wait to ride him out of town on a rail.

You don't agree? That's fine. Doesn't make you right though. Sox fans turn quick on guys who leave and send them on their way in a bad breakup. They may play kissyface years later, but a lot of Boston sports fans have done exactly what they did to Ray last night to a lot of other athletes....and I don't think (based on my opinion) that other teams do it as broadly as they do.

Deep the amazing thing with this dope is he can't even admit his fan base is as ignorant at times as ANY other.......you need to know nothing more.......not at all a likeable poster like other Sox fans who I've crossed threads with, he actually believes he knows everything!! Funny !!!

 

[Horatio]

That group should've won one more title and I'm not a fan of the C's but I rooted for Ray to win one along with Garnett, Pierce and one my favorite NBA personalities off all time - Rasheed Wallace . With that said , Boston Celtic fans will be dancing the Rebuild Shuffle pretty soon.

 

[Gurleyman]

That group should've won one more title and I'm not a fan of the C's but I rooted for Ray to win one along with Garnett, Pierce and one my favorite NBA personalities off all time - Rasheed Wallace . With that said , Boston Celtic fans will be dancing the Rebuild Shuffle pretty soon.

Maybe - they were considered to be on the downslope when they all got together in the first place and were put together for a three-year run. They won the first year, which was sooner than expected and opened the door to maybe win multiple titles. But KG was out in year two. Year three was a loss in the Game 7 finals (losing Perkins and getting killed inside in Game 7). After that, they were too old and got beat by younger teams.

Going to 7 in the ECF last year was part overachievement, part luck (no Derrick Rose in the way, no Bosh for 5 games).

That loss to Kobe on a night he shot 6-24 hurts - but they were that close to going 2-for-2 in years they had a legit chance.

 

[Horatio]

Yeah. The KG injury is the one that did it. I think each of The Big 3 could definitely help other teams win a title but there just too old to build around and win one now.

 

[The Viking]

1) Since you don't remember Vaughn and Pedro being steamrolled that's the law now? Both of them were lauded as being greedy (just like Ray) when the Sox didn't want to pay them.

2) I was at the game that Clemens returned to Fenway and struck out 15. That was not his reception during his warmups and his first few innings. They threw fake dollar bills at him and had signs ripping him apart. In fact, last season (2012) Clemens went to a game at Fenway, was shown on a scoreboard and the entire place booed him.

3) Sox fans mentioned Nomar in the same breath as Bird and Orr....then couldn't wait to ride him out of town on a rail.

You don't agree? That's fine. Doesn't make you right though. Sox fans turn quick on guys who leave and send them on their way in a bad breakup. They may play kissyface years later, but a lot of Boston sports fans have done exactly what they did to Ray last night to a lot of other athletes....and I don't think (based on my opinion) that other teams do it as broadly as they do.

 

[UChusky916]

Would anyone here cheer for Alex O if UConn played Missouri? Fans root for their team - the end.

Totally different situation.

 

[Huskies4ever]

but he was realistic - he had wanted to stay in Milwaukee and Seattle and was traded both times. Plus he grew up a military brat and moved around a lot when he had no say in the matter. He was in a rare position to make a move on his own terms, and feeling that his role in Boston had run its course, he went for it.

Great point. Even though I knew about all these things, I never that about it that way.

 

[The Viking]

1) Since you don't remember Vaughn and Pedro being steamrolled that's the law now? Both of them were lauded as being greedy (just like Ray) when the Sox didn't want to pay them.

2) I was at the game that Clemens returned to Fenway and struck out 15. That was not his reception during his warmups and his first few innings. They threw fake dollar bills at him and had signs ripping him apart. In fact, last season (2012) Clemens went to a game at Fenway, was shown on a scoreboard and the entire place booed him.

3) Sox fans mentioned Nomar in the same breath as Bird and Orr....then couldn't wait to ride him out of town on a rail.

You don't agree? That's fine. Doesn't make you right though. Sox fans turn quick on guys who leave and send them on their way in a bad breakup. They may play kissyface years later, but a lot of Boston sports fans have done exactly what they did to Ray last night to a lot of other athletes....and I don't think (based on my opinion) that other teams do it as broadly as they do.

First regarding Ray, what's the comparison that NY has and how NY'ers have handled a fan favorite leaving their team to go play for the main rival, for less money to boot. How was that player received when returning to NY for their first visit in road uni's? Just curious, since we Boston neanderthals need to take a lot of pointers from classy, respectable NY fans. And what NY star left NY in a messy divorce with the front office and in the media and yet the fans always had their backs the whole way out? What Clemens or Nomar had a similar situation in NY?

You're asking us to compare the reaction of Boston fans to a situation when I'm not sure we have comparisons as to how NY fans have handled it. and because of that you're giving NY fans credit for something that I don't think they've actually dealt with.

Secondly, if you think Pedro was steamrolled out of town, you're an idiot. I should just stop typing here because you think Pedro was steamrolled out of town by Sox fans. What a clueless comment. The guy was and always will be a God in Boston. Everyone knew once the WS was over that Pedro may have pitched his last game in Boston.

And Vaughn was not railroaded out of town by the fans. He was by Duquette..and fans were more pissed at Duquette then Vaughn. Vaughn was a hero for his charity work in boston as much as his on-the-field stuff. The Sox didn't like his DWI's, his weight, and his demand to get paid close to what Pedro got, so the Sox moved on. Didn't work for either side.

 

[Huskybass]

The Celtics betrayed him by offering him more money than Miami did, huh? Stick to the college game, you're out of your element here with your little schoolgirl crush.

Does this clown ever have anything nice to say about anyone? Almost all of his posts are used to put other posters down.

 

[Deepster]

First regarding Ray, what's the comparison that NY has and how NY'ers have handled a fan favorite leaving their team to go play for the main rival, for less money to boot. How was that player received when returning to NY for their first visit in road uni's? Just curious, since we Boston neanderthals need to take a lot of pointers from classy, respectable NY fans. And what NY star left NY in a messy divorce with the front office and in the media and yet the fans always had their backs the whole way out? What Clemens or Nomar had a similar situation in NY?

You're asking us to compare the reaction of Boston fans to a situation when I'm not sure we have comparisons as to how NY fans have handled it. and because of that you're giving NY fans credit for something that I don't think they've actually dealt with.

Secondly, if you think Pedro was steamrolled out of town, you're an idiot. I should just stop typing here because you think Pedro was steamrolled out of town by Sox fans. What a clueless comment. The guy was and always will be a God in Boston. Everyone knew once the WS was over that Pedro may have pitched his last game in Boston.

And Vaughn was not railroaded out of town by the fans. He was by Duquette..and fans were more pissed at Duquette then Vaughn. Vaughn was a hero for his charity work in boston as much as his on-the-field stuff. The Sox didn't like his DWI's, his weight, and his demand to get paid close to what Pedro got, so the Sox moved on. Didn't work for either side.

I know your type. You'll keep going on, belaboring the point and spinning and spinning and spinning with garbage like "We Boston neanderthals".

I disagree with you. Face it. Your opinion isn't the law.

When Pedro left to go to the Mets, the overwhelming sentiment was "Good riddance. You want to pay him the extra year? Jokes on you. Wait til he runs back to the Dominican with a week left in the season. Wait until you get the full on Diva act." I did not see it as a triumphant, tear jerking exit from the team he pitched his balls off for.

And Vaughn the Hero was booed his first at bat that he came back with the Angels. Don't let the facts get in the way though.

 

[Rico444]

Pedro was trashed on the way out by the media and the front office. Some fans trashed him, but I don't think it was that bad. He always got nice ovations when he went back to Fenway.

 

[Dogdeacon]

When Pedro left to go to the Mets, the overwhelming sentiment was "Good riddance. You want to pay him the extra year? Jokes on you.

Fine on the jokes on you and extra year stuff. "Good riddance" is exaggerated at best but mostly just wrong. The guy went 117-37 with the Sox, 1,683 strikeouts and a 2.52 ERA. To spin that Red Sox fans didn't appreciate that is idiotic. One hundred and seventeen wins. He is going to the hall of fame in a Red Sox cap AND he was brought back to management just for the GOODWILL he will engender among the fan base.

He only won 32 games in 4 years with the Mets but I think it was still a good signing for the intangibles and sense of legitimacy he brought. They overpaid but knowingly so. Sox fans supported management decision not to sign him for that but just like any fans they also would have supported it if they overpaid Pedro on the back-end like they likely just did Big Papi.

Let's return to the original point though. If you are a die-hard Celtics fan (I've rooted for them since Bird days) how can you NOT be pissed at Ray Allen? Sure he gave them a championship and good years, but his defection seems to have been the tipping point that ended the 'big three' era and created a mediocre team. When he shows up playing for archrival Miami, what actual purpose would it serve to cheer for Ray Allen or somehow express gratitude for his time in Boston? If Shane Battier swapped the last 6 yrs with Ray, almost every person on this board would have boo-ed him on Sunday.

 

[Waquoit]

If you are a die-hard Celtics fan (I've rooted for them since Bird days) how can you NOT be pissed at Ray Allen?

Because the problem there is Danny Ainge, not Allen. He's full of crap to his core. He lucked out when his old teammate traded him Garnett for peanuts, after that nothing. He wins another title if he keeps Perkins. Instead he trades Perkins for a stiff. And doubles down by opening the vault for said stiff while dissing Ray. The Celts are going to suck for a good, long time now.

 

[Deepster]

Let's return to the original point though. If you are a die-hard Celtics fan (I've rooted for them since Bird days) how can you NOT be pissed at Ray Allen? Sure he gave them a championship and good years, but his defection seems to have been the tipping point that ended the 'big three' era and created a mediocre team. When he shows up playing for archrival Miami, what actual purpose would it serve to cheer for Ray Allen or somehow express gratitude for his time in Boston? If Shane Battier swapped the last 6 yrs with Ray, almost every person on this board would have boo-ed him on Sunday.

His defection? What about all the trade rumors for the last few years leading up to his "defection"? It's a bad thing that he got out one step ahead of a trade to a crappy team? So he gets cheers if he ends up on the Wizards for his last 2 years? That makes sense.

And I don't get the "arch rival" Miami. Aren't they everyone's arch rival? Celts/Lakers are arch rivals. Celts/Sixers or Celts/Knicks, I can even get behind. Miami? Must be all those battles in the Rony Seikaly era.....

 

[nomar]

Does this clown ever have anything nice to say about anyone? Almost all of his posts are used to put other posters down.

I've noticed that too.

 

[Dogdeacon]

His defection? What about all the trade rumors for the last few years leading up to his "defection"? It's a bad thing that he got out one step ahead of a trade to a crappy team? So he gets cheers if he ends up on the Wizards for his last 2 years? That makes sense.

And I don't get the "arch rival" Miami. Aren't they everyone's arch rival? Celts/Lakers are arch rivals. Celts/Sixers or Celts/Knicks, I can even get behind. Miami? Must be all those battles in the Rony Seikaly era.....

Holy semantics batman. Defection is a word that means going to the other side, conscious abandonmant of allegiance. Whereas the Heat beat the Celtics in the eastern finals and were on the opposite side of the court on Sunday I think its a reasonable word choice. P.S. I'm 100% behind Ray's defection because I think he knew that his best basketball option (his effectiveness, winning) was to go play in Miami. I've written at length about that here and I don't think the trader rumors or anything like that had much to do with it. Ray took less money because he wanted to contribute and win basketball games, hopefully championships.

Ray or anyone else shouldn't and likely doesn't give a about 2hrs of fan noise within a game. This is not a basis for decision making, valuing his time in Boston (Ray took out an ad thanking fans as he's done in every city) or any referendum on a fandom. Ray would have gotten more cheers if he was on the Wizards because there is no point in rooting hard against them. The Heat are NBA's best and therefore the villains and lots of opposing NBA fans have been rooting against them since the decision.

Is it ok for home crowds to distract free throw shooters, drown out footbal play calling, ride a rattled pitcher? You cheer for the home team and root against the visitors. This isn't that complicated.

 

[Gurleyman]

Holy semantics batman. Defection is a word that means going to the other side, conscious abandonmant of allegiance. Whereas the Heat beat the Celtics in the eastern finals and were on the opposite side of the court on Sunday I think its a reasonable word choice. P.S. I'm 100% behind Ray's defection because I think he knew that his best basketball option (his effectiveness, winning) was to go play in Miami. I've written at length about that here and I don't think the trader rumors or anything like that had much to do with it. Ray took less money because he wanted to contribute and win basketball games, hopefully championships.

Ray or anyone else shouldn't and likely doesn't give a about 2hrs of fan noise within a game. This is not a basis for decision making, valuing his time in Boston (Ray took out an ad thanking fans as he's done in every city) or any referendum on a fandom. Ray would have gotten more cheers if he was on the Wizards because there is no point in rooting hard against them. The Heat are NBA's best and therefore the villains and lots of opposing NBA fans have been rooting against them since the decision.

Is it ok for home crowds to distract free throw shooters, drown out footbal play calling, ride a rattled pitcher? You cheer for the home team and root against the visitors. This isn't that complicated.

Pretty much agree with all of this. As classy as he is known to be, Ray has been involved in a few minor controversies/dustups over the years, and every time he seems to play well (there was a Vince Carter incident over the Olympics in 1999, comments about the NBA wanting the Sixers to win the Eastern Conference Playoffs in 2001, digs at Kobe in 2005). He was booed every time in the other gym and got caught up in some media "distractions" - it doesn't faze him. What does faze him is the gym not being open three hours before game time so he can't get his shots up.

Point being - he knew full well he'd be booed and people would be miffed about his decision, and it didn't bother him. He made the move he wanted to make. You can argue why - and I agree with you that it was more basketball-related than relationship-related (with Rondo or management), but there could be elements of both. I think it comes down to the fact that if he thought he was still a good fit in Boston basketball-wise, he would have stayed.

 

[The Viking]

I know your type. You'll keep going on, belaboring the point and spinning and spinning and spinning with garbage like "We Boston neanderthals".

I disagree with you. Face it. Your opinion isn't the law.

When Pedro left to go to the Mets, the overwhelming sentiment was "Good riddance. You want to pay him the extra year? Jokes on you. Wait til he runs back to the Dominican with a week left in the season. Wait until you get the full on Diva act." I did not see it as a triumphant, tear jerking exit from the team he pitched his balls off for.

And Vaughn the Hero was booed his first at bat that he came back with the Angels. Don't let the facts get in the way though.

I think Jim Calhoun would agree with me when I say my best advice to you? Shut up.

Mo got a huge standing O when he came back and it lasted longer than your standard Standing O. I remember watching it on TV, it was a huge event. The ovation probably lasted for 1-2 minutes...the game was of those days that are circled on the calendar before the season starts.

Now does that mean 100.0% were all cheering (is that even possible in any city when a big star leaves a town over money issues while he's still very good?), but if your plan is to point to the small number of people who may have booed and call out an entire fanbase by saying "Vaughn the Hero was booed his first at bat" and trying to insinuate that "THE FANS STEAMROLLED HIM OUT OF TOWN!", well then you're just as big a clown as your boy Mau. He gets pissed cuz I call him out on blatant lies and misreprensentations. If I'm remembering wrong, show me proof. Find me some article or link out there that states Mo couldn't believe how vindictive the fans were and that he'll never look at Boston the same. Find some Shaughnessy article in the globe archives talking about it.. He lives to write about stuff like that....Vaughn's return was nothing like Damon's return. Give me a break.

And for the third time, Sox fans didn't steamroll Pedro out of Boston. You really think most Sox fans were running around telling NY fans thank god this Diva isn't pitching for us anymore? You're hilarious. Some fans wanted Boston to give him a blank check..some wanted them to stop at 3 years due to his decline in performance, velocity, etc. I was at Fenway the night before Pedro pitched for the Mets vs. us. He was sitting at the top of the Mets dugout at the farthest end from home plate. Between one of the innings the camera puts him on the main scoreboard and the place goes nuts for probably a good five minutes. Go on youtube and see what his reaction was the next night when he had to pitch and was just walking from the dugout to the bullpen for warmups. He's a god in Boston.

Have some splits been messy, yes. Clemens and Nomar for different reasons. But Pedro and Vaughn, give me a break. And as I said before, I love Ray as a UConn and Celtics fan and the C's fans loved everything he gave during his time here. But NY fans just haven't experienced a situation that is similar to Ray going to the Heat, so don't tell us how we "should act" compared to how NY fans would act. Find me a NY situation that was similar and I'm all ears like I said before.

 

[The Viking]

His defection? What about all the trade rumors for the last few years leading up to his "defection"? It's a bad thing that he got out one step ahead of a trade to a crappy team? So he gets cheers if he ends up on the Wizards for his last 2 years? That makes sense.

And I don't get the "arch rival" Miami. Aren't they everyone's arch rival? Celts/Lakers are arch rivals. Celts/Sixers or Celts/Knicks, I can even get behind. Miami? Must be all those battles in the Rony Seikaly era.....

Celtics fans hate the Heat with the passion of 1000 fiery suns. Riley, Lebron and Bosh orchestrating their move to join whiney b*tch wade...and they've stood in the Celtics way twice in the last two years....painfully so last year...and Ray took less money to JOIN THEM.

I'll always love Ray first and foremost for his UConn ties but not all Celtics fans are UConn fans....maybe that's why you just don't get his homecoming reception.