Question for the “I hate fouling at the end of games” crowd

[Dream Jobbed 2.0]

Do you just love that the last two minutes and change of a football game are completely meaningless 95% of the time if the winning team has ball? That’s way more aggravating to me than the sometimes fouling in basketball.

 

[MDHuskFan]

I’m a dolphins fan.... there’s a lot more than2 minutes of the game that are meaningless

 

[husky429]

Does anyone think fouling isn't a good idea at the end of games?

I think the only question was whether to foul up 3 with, say 15 seconds left.

 

[Ctedgeman]

While I totally recognize it's the "smart" move, I hate fouling while up 3. It's bush league imo and a coward's way out. Go play defense and earn the win. I'd rather lose in OT than win like that in regulation.

 

[Leebo]

Does anyone think fouling isn't a good idea at the end of games?

I think the only question was whether to foul up 3 with, say 15 seconds left.

It's not about whether it's a good strategy. He's talking about if it's enjoyable to watch.

 

[storrsroars]

Which is one thing that makes baseball great - no arbitrary time limit. Nothing a defense can do except let the other team finish its at bats.

To the school's credit, I don't recall JC/KO/DH ever asking players to foul when up 3 at the end of a game. Well, at least not intentionally.

 

[Minicoop69]

Which is one thing that makes baseball great - no arbitrary time limit. Nothing a defense can do except let the other team finish its at bats.

To the school's credit, I don't recall JC/KO/DH ever asking players to foul when up 3 at the end of a game. Well, at least not intentionally.

True, but recently we haven't been "up 3" very frequently. Maybe down 3 is more likely as of late.

 

[Dream Jobbed 2.0]

True, but recently we haven't been "up 3" very frequently. Maybe down 3 is more likely as of late.

I think this case up vs Monmouth a couple years ago

 

[HuskyHawk]

I’m not a fan of the rule. I don’t think it adequately compensates the team that is fouled. When a team fouls to stop the clock, those are intentional fouls. Call it that. Two shots and the ball. Think of the irony. A team not in the bonus is rewarded in that situation. They are better off. At a minimum you should provide an option to keep possession and forgo the free throws.

 

[UConnTrumbull]

I’m not a fan of the rule. I don’t think it adequately compensates the team that is fouled. When a team fouls to stop the clock, those are intentional fouls. Call it that. Two shots and the ball. Think of the irony. A team not in the bonus is rewarded in that situation. They are better off. At a minimum you should provide an option to keep possession and forgo the free throws.

This. I’ve never understood why these are not considered intentional fouls. Just like in football where the QB spikes the ball. By all measures that is intentional grounding. I understand it’s to keep a close game from fizzling away but they contradict the rules.

 

[mauconnfan]

While I totally recognize it's the "smart" move, I hate fouling while up 3. It's bush league imo and a coward's way out. Go play defense and earn the win. I'd rather lose in OT than win like that in regulation.

Bush league is pressing full court up 40 in the 2nd half, stealing bases up 10 runs in the 8th inning or throwing the football up 37-0 with 2 minutes left in the game (didn't that just happen lol). It certainly isn't bush league to try to win a game using the rules they have dealt you. And it's not very smart to rather lose in OT than to foul and be sure the team can't get the tying 3 off let's be honest.

I'm not sure where I stand on the rule but if it means winning do whatever it takes.

 

[Get a Job]

While I totally recognize it's the "smart" move, I hate fouling while up 3. It's bush league imo and a coward's way out. Go play defense and earn the win. I'd rather lose in OT than win like that in regulation.

This is not a rational take, in my opinion. A team's job is to do anything within the rules of the game to win. You can coach your teams to do whatever you like, but I prefer that the teams for whom I root win all winnable games, as opposed to taking some arbitrary high road according to someone's unwritten rules.

... Wait, you're not Dan Hurley, are you?

 

[pj]

To the school's credit, I don't recall JC/KO/DH ever asking players to foul when up 3 at the end of a game. Well, at least not intentionally.

Pretty sure I remember them doing it. Not often, because usually the opponent was in the bonus and it doesn't make sense if they get two shots until the clock is down to 3 or so.

 

[HuskylnSC]

This. I’ve never understood why these are not considered intentional fouls. Just like in football where the QB spikes the ball. By all measures that is intentional grounding. I understand it’s to keep a close game from fizzling away but they contradict the rules.

The problem for the officials is determining intent. If the player is making an attempt for the ball, without something extracurricular, it cannot be ruled intentional.

 

[HuskyHawk]

The problem for the officials is determining intent. If the player is making an attempt for the ball, without something extracurricular, it cannot be ruled intentional.

That's why I think the rule change should be to allow them to elect possession instead of FTs. Just like declining a penalty in football.

 

[husky429]

That's why I think the rule change should be to allow them to elect possession instead of FTs. Just like declining a penalty in football.

I like this a lot. Would make the end of games more interesting.

 

[Tenspro2002]

Do you just love that the last two minutes and change of a football game are completely meaningless 95% of the time if the winning team has ball? That’s way more aggravating to me than the sometimes fouling in basketball.

The difference, of course, is that when the winning team has the ball in the final 2 minutes of an NFL game and they kneel to run out the clock, it only takes 2 minutes (hence "running out the clock").

In basketball, fouling in the last minute can take 10 minutes, between the foul shots themselves, timeouts, replays, etc. And most of the time you never improve your odds of winning by more than a few percent.

 

[Dream Jobbed 2.0]

The difference, of course, is that when the winning team has the ball in the final 2 minutes of an NFL game and they kneel to run out the clock, it only takes 2 minutes (hence "running out the clock").

In basketball, fouling in the last minute can take 10 minutes, between the foul shots themselves, timeouts, replays, etc. And most of the time you never improve your odds of winning by more than a few percent.

Losing by 2 without the ball and <30 seconds = 0 % chance of winning if you don’t foul. Would you rather watch someone taking pressure packed free throws or the coaches shaking hands with 25 seconds on the clock?

 

[husky429]

The difference, of course, is that when the winning team has the ball in the final 2 minutes of an NFL game and they kneel to run out the clock, it only takes 2 minutes (hence "running out the clock").

In basketball, fouling in the last minute can take 10 minutes, between the foul shots themselves, timeouts, replays, etc. And most of the time you never improve your odds of winning by more than a few percent.

When I watch or go to a game, I'm there for enjoyment. Personally, I love the thrill of those last 2 minutes. It's a different wrinkle to the game we don't always get to see.

 

[uconngb]

It only upsets me when it messes with the spread and the over/under. It's crazy what it can do to the over/under.

 

[Tenspro2002]

Losing by 2 without the ball and <30 seconds = 0 % chance of winning if you don’t foul. Would you rather watch someone taking pressure packed free throws or the coaches shaking hands with 25 seconds on the clock?

I'm not saying I disagree with fouling, and certainly not in that scenario.

You compared it to football. I'm saying that, a lot of the times, the end of the game is a lot more painless, and with about the same change in win probability.

 

[McLovin]

Do you just love that the last two minutes and change of a football game are completely meaningless 95% of the time if the winning team has ball? That’s way more aggravating to me than the sometimes fouling in basketball.

This is the reason why TBT uses the +7 rule or whatever it is. Basically eliminates the need to foul and puts the emphasis on playing defense to stop the leading team, rather than giving them unguarded free throws hoping for a miss.

I do think the end of basketball games with the foul strategy there is more hope for a comeback than in football when a team basically just need to not fumble the center / QB exchange on a kneel down to run out the clock.

 

[intlzncster]

I’m not a fan of the rule. I don’t think it adequately compensates the team that is fouled. When a team fouls to stop the clock, those are intentional fouls. Call it that. Two shots and the ball. Think of the irony. A team not in the bonus is rewarded in that situation. They are better off. At a minimum you should provide an option to keep possession and forgo the free throws.

Problem with that is then you put the entire game in the hands of the refs judgement. They've gotta decide whether it was intentional or not. Yes, there's easy ones, but many are borderline (on steals or reach ins).

College basketball refs are notoriously bad as it is, and I would trust them to get this (much) more wrong than right.

 

[the Q]

The problem for the officials is determining intent. If the player is making an attempt for the ball, without something extracurricular, it cannot be ruled intentional.

Yes. It’s a bad place to be trying to have officials determine the intent. It’s very subjective.

 

[the Q]

Which is one thing that makes baseball great - no arbitrary time limit. Nothing a defense can do except let the other team finish its at bats.

To the school's credit, I don't recall JC/KO/DH ever asking players to foul when up 3 at the end of a game. Well, at least not intentionally.

That’s one of the many things that baseball great. But it is one of favorites. No playing the clock or any of that nonsense. You play the game. The whole game.