PTI Questions if UConn's Days of Dominance Are Done | Page 2 | The Boneyard

PTI Questions if UConn's Days of Dominance Are Done

Very likely but as a fan from 1993 it’s been a great ride. Geno will retire and CD will go with him but the ride isn’t over yet!
Personally, when the time comes, I wouldn’t mind CD coaching for a couple of years with Berube as her associate head coach and then handing over the reins. That allows continuity for the current players, gives Chris a couple of multi million dollar paydays and lets Carla ease her way in to the head-coaching spot.

But, happily, it’s not an immediate problem that we have to deal with.
 
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I wonder if PTI would be talking about "decline" if a men's team had a current final four streak of 14 and counting. Another case of UCONN victimized by their own success. I suspect they would be singing a different song.
 
The crux of the no argument was that there are more good players going to more schools, a.k.a. parity. Of course South Carolina just won a national championship against a team that started 3 former #1 high school recruits, and Geno has reeled in the majority of the #1 recruits over the last decade. I think the better argument might be that the talent gap between the top recruits and those just below isn't as great as it used to be, or that the so-called generational talents don't have as much of an edge as they used to the way Stewie, Maya, or Diana did.
I think the difference is the development of these players. There are more going to different schools but the No. 1's as you put it were going up against 3, 4, 5 players who developed into better players. There is not enough difference in the talent levels that would make one team dominant unless their development in the process is superior. I think that is what has happened at South Carolina. The teammates know what their positions are and they accept their role in the process. That and the "your turn is coming" is what elevated this team. Talent is a tricky thing to mold into a unit that sees the big picture. Dawn has shown them the big picture and that has translated into happy girls filling in their role. There may be transfers but Dawn will get better players to replace them. She has that "it" factor now that UCONN had for so many years.
 
This. When a legendary coach who has established a powerhouse program retires, the program slowly but surely declines. The only exceptions I'm aware of are in men's college ball, Kentucky & UNC.If you look at the history of the women's college game none of the legendary powerhouse programs (Tennessee, Louisiana Tech, Old Dominion etc) was able to retain its place once their HOF head coaches retired or left. I don't see it being any different for UConn no matter who replaces Geno as coach.
I hope you’re wrong, of course.

If DT or Sue Bird replaced Geno — especially DT — I think UConn would not decline. But either of them taking the job seems unlikely.
 
There are levels but as of right now there is no one dominate team. Stanford, UConn, and SC are on the top level, and it has been this way the last couple of seasons. Right now, there is no 4th team. That 4th spot is like a revolving door. NC State and Louisville will drop back to the pack. Thanks to the portal, teams can build themselves up to challenge year to year. Will there be in separation between the top 3? We will have to wait and see. However, if SC goes to Storrs next year and beat UConn by double digits and win another title...then you will have to call it what it is. Personally, I don't think a dominate team will arise. If so, it would be for short periods.
 
It is a total shame that some of the players may feel that it is a failure to end up #2. Making it to the final 4 twice in a row is a total victory for the sophomores for example. They had a fantastic year. Beat NC State AND Stanford on the way to the finals. They are fantastic in my book.

My concern is that culturally we may not be able to recruit many of the players who will end up winning most of the time going forward. Let me be frank. A coach of color and a woman may well have a cultural advantage with a lot of the top women's players of today. Have you heard one of Staley's coaching sessions? It's like a black church with everyone interrupting constantly with amens and all sorts of interactivity. Her team is made up of a lot of Janiah Barker types. Constant banter and you don't see that in Geno's teams. It's like night and day. Can we relate to the top athletes any more if they culturally feel more comfortable in Dawn's environment? Is uconn too much of a pressure cooker? If you watch Staley coach it looks like a pressure cooker there as well but it's a matter of degrees. Maybe with Dawn it's just her rather than the entire media environment nationwide.

I for one think Geno needs to find a way to lighten this up. Make the pressure cooker deflate. Spend a lot more time deflating expectations. It's going to hurt his program if he doesn't. He can still make the final 4 but he's going to struggle to win it all unless he finds a way to attract and retain the top basketball talents out there. And before you say "well we got 3 #1 prospects just recently", may I remind you we haven't won in 5 years now. The consensus number 1's are not always the real #1. The difference makers. The ones which can make plays against top competition. The ones that can play defense and rebound. For example, this past year South Carolina's recruiting wasn't rated at the top but the talent she recruited may well end up the best if you watched the Macdonald's all american game.

I'm happy for the girls and congratulate them but I think Geno has his work cut out for him. To a point where I wonder if maybe even a coaching change should happen in the next few years. We need to relate to the modern player. What worked even 20 years ago probably is not going to keep working forever.
 
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We still have a lot of advantages in the recruiting market. What is the best situation for sponsorship opportunities in the sport? It could well be uconn for a while longer at least. Who has proven to develop great pros? Geno. Who has a proven track record of success? Geno. Which team has the best facilities and fan following? Maybe Uconn. Even the alumni network in the world of basketball is maybe a factor. We do have our own cultural environment which may well appeal to many top players. We need to maximize our advantages and minimize our disadvantages. We need to recruit at least some players which fit a different profile also. Bigger, stronger, faster rather than just focus mainly on skill. There does appear to be a trend towards bigger, stronger, faster. That doesn't mean every player has to fit that profile of course but you better have a significant part of the team fit that profile or you can't compete.
 
Hard to see the dominance is finished when they keep on making Final Fours. The Yankees haven’t won a title since 2009, but they’ve won the most games in the last 13 years.
 
This. When a legendary coach who has established a powerhouse program retires, the program slowly but surely declines. The only exceptions I'm aware of are in men's college ball, Kentucky & UNC.If you look at the history of the women's college game none of the legendary powerhouse programs (Tennessee, Louisiana Tech, Old Dominion etc) was able to retain its place once their HOF head coaches retired or left. I don't see it being any different for UConn no matter who replaces Geno as coach.
You can add Kansas on the men’s side and Uconn on the men’s side are challenging that as well.
 
Every team in the country but one would love to be down like UCONN this year
 
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I hope you’re wrong, of course.

If DT or Sue Bird replaced Geno — especially DT — I think UConn would not decline. But either of them taking the job seems unlikely.
What are DT's coaching creds?
Exactly. Diana has recently said she doesn't want to coach a team, she wants to own one. And IMHO, Sue seems the type to go into management either in WNBA or NBA, rather than coaching, or as an agent, etc. She's involved in a lot of other interests and causes right now that are important to her. We've seen it on the MBB side where a vaunted alum gets hired as an asst or head coach with little or no bonafides, and the outcome is mixed. I don't think UConn, as a program and a brand, would hire someone without any sort of coaching experience, just for the name value.
 
Exactly. Diana has recently said she doesn't want to coach a team, she wants to own one. And IMHO, Sue seems the type to go into management either in WNBA or NBA, rather than coaching, or as an agent, etc. She's involved in a lot of other interests and causes right now that are important to her. We've seen it on the MBB side where a vaunted alum gets hired as an asst or head coach with little or no bonafides, and the outcome is mixed. I don't think UConn, as a program and a brand, would hire someone without any sort of coaching experience, just for the name value.
As I said, it’s unlikely either would be interested, so it’s just a fantasy for me.

But to address the issue even so, DT has as much coaching experience as Dawn did when she started (granted, Dawn started coaching at Temple), and DT has as good an understanding of the game as anyone. But most importantly, UConn’s biggest challenge after Geno leaves will be recruiting. Many players come to UConn because they want to play under Geno. That will stop when he retires, and that will likely stop if UConn hires a great coach not exciting to high school players. There are too many other good options now.

How many high school players would love the opportunity to play under DT, the greatest player ever? A lot. As Geno has said numerous times, he and DT are very similar in background, outlook, and personality. DT would attract a great staff and intense media attention.

Would DT be a good coach? A dynamic one, definitely, a good one, I don’t know. But if UConn can’t continue attracting top talent, the coach won’t matter. I hope UConn’s past success and possibly offering Geno’s $2 million salary to someone else would be enough to attract a great and exciting coach.
 
As I said, it’s unlikely either would be interested, so it’s just a fantasy for me.

But to address the issue even so, DT has as much coaching experience as Dawn did when she started (granted, Dawn started coaching at Temple), and DT has as good an understanding of the game as anyone. But most importantly, UConn’s biggest challenge after Geno leaves will be recruiting. Many players come to UConn because they want to play under Geno. That will stop when he retires, and that will likely stop if UConn hires a great coach not exciting to high school players. There are too many other good options now.

How many high school players would love the opportunity to play under DT, the greatest player ever? A lot. As Geno has said numerous times, he and DT are very similar in background, outlook, and personality. DT would attract a great staff and intense media attention.

Would DT be a good coach? A dynamic one, definitely, a good one, I don’t know. But if UConn can’t continue attracting top talent, the coach won’t matter. I hope UConn’s past success and possibly offering Geno’s $2 million salary to someone else would be enough to attract a great and exciting coach.
Very likely a moot point, ballerfan but, as you likely know, the greatest players in many sports have failed miserably as coaches. DT surely has a deep understanding of the game on-court, but I'm not so sure her temperament would lend itself to development of young players and patience with them when they mess up... no question the media would eat it all up if she were to try.
 
I could see Sue Bird becoming a good manager. I could see Nika, Evina or Paige becoming a good manager. That doesn't mean I'd give any player the reins to this program without significant coaching experience.
 
Do not get caught up in “ The coaching tree.”

Many outstanding programs in numerous sports have stressed hiring from a great coaches people after s/he retired. Tennessee? Alabama in football. The list goes on and on. Don’t fall into that trap.

Get the best coach who is available at that time - even if it’s from Muffet’s coaching tree.
 
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Let's look at the evidence. UConn has a current streak of 14 consecutive Final Four appearances. The next longest current streak - 2. I don't think UConn's "days of dominance" are over yet.
All hinges on semantics and definitions. Not unlike the endless and tiresome debates over what constitutes "generational" players or "elite" teams.

To me there's a difference between dominance and excellence.

Dominance to me implies one team head and shoulders above the rest. UConn was no doubt dominant in Stewie, Moriah and Tuck's sophomore through senior years, for example.

Needless to say, those days of dominance are over. Reaching the Final Four umpteen times in a row is certainly excellence but, with no national titles in the past 6 years, not dominance as I would define the term.
 
All hinges on semantics and definitions. Not unlike the endless and tiresome debates over what constitutes "generational" players or "elite" teams.

To me there's a difference between dominance and excellence.

Dominance to me implies one team head and shoulders above the rest. UConn was no doubt dominant in Stewie, Moriah and Tuck's sophomore through senior years, for example.

Needless to say, those days of dominance are over. Reaching the Final Four umpteen times in a row is certainly excellence but, with no national titles in the past 6 years, not dominance as I would define the term.
Wait till next year. Your arguments fit the men's BB team or women's field hockey team better, Geno's team was in national championship.
 
All hinges on semantics and definitions. Not unlike the endless and tiresome debates over what constitutes "generational" players or "elite" teams.

To me there's a difference between dominance and excellence.

Dominance to me implies one team head and shoulders above the rest. UConn was no doubt dominant in Stewie, Moriah and Tuck's sophomore through senior years, for example.

Needless to say, those days of dominance are over. Reaching the Final Four umpteen times in a row is certainly excellence but, with no national titles in the past 6 years, not dominance as I would define the term.
I agree, they are excellent but not dominant. They do however remain the most prominent (and in my opinion that is worth something).
 
My concern is that culturally we may not be able to recruit many of the players who will end up winning most of the time going forward. Let me be frank. A coach of color and a woman may well have a cultural advantage with a lot of the top women's players of today. Have you heard one of Staley's coaching sessions? It's like a black church with everyone interrupting constantly with amens and all sorts of interactivity. Her team is made up of a lot of Janiah Barker types. Constant banter and you don't see that in Geno's teams. It's like night and day. Can we relate to the top athletes any more if they culturally feel more comfortable in Dawn's environment? Is uconn too much of a pressure cooker? If you watch Staley coach it looks like a pressure cooker there as well but it's a matter of degrees. Maybe with Dawn it's just her rather than the entire media environment nationwide.
Generally, I completely disagree with your point of view, but I think you may be correct in some of what you say in the above paragraph. As I said in another post, I think Dawn is the first coach since Pat Summitt was in her prime to present a really attractive alternative to Geno among a large portion of top-level recruits. And I think you are generally correct about the kind of players that are attracted to her. She can and probably will build excellent, NC-contending teams from the type of players who are attracted to that culture.

It's worth noting that from about 2005 to 2010, C. Vivian Stringer tried to build her Rutgers teams from the same type of players who are now attracted to Dawn, and she was quite successful. She never won an NC, but then she never had a player like Aliyah Boston.

However, I think it's also quite possible to build an NC-contending team from recruits who are culturally from a different place than that. Aside from UConn's string of Final Fours, what about the consistent success of Stanford (who won an NC last year) and the nearly-similar consistent success of Notre Dame or Oregon? Those schools don't attract the kind of players that you say are drawn to Dawn's teams. Can you imagine Paige, Azzi, Haley Jones, Cameron Brink, Ashlynn Shade, Sonia Citron, Caitlyn Clark, Sabrina Ionescu, or the Hull sisters being drawn to Dawn's culture? I can't. Can you imagine Dawn attracting European players like Dorka, Nika, or Justine Jocyte? Neither can I. What about players like KLS and Napheesa, both of whom were undefeated against South Carolina in their college careers?

I think that you and many others on this board are overgeneralizing from one year's experience, and are failing to appreciate the "sui generis" nature of Aliyah Boston as a player. Take Boston off SC's roster and what do you think the outcome of Sunday night's game would have been (despite all their other very capable players)? I think it would have been a very competitive game that would be decided by single digits, even with UConn's roster limited as it was. If UConn had the fully healthy services of Dorka / Azzi / Evina, UConn would have been favored and would probably have won if SC did not have Boston.

So SC may be "dominant" until Boston moves on (which may not be until 2024 if she uses her COVID year). After that, all bets are off.

Much less importantly, I think you are quite wrong about UConn being a "pressure cooker". I think Geno's sense of humor prevents that, and you see that players like Paige and Nika feel quite comfortable joking around with Geno. You are right that Dawn's players "feel more culturally comfortable" with her than they would with Geno, but it is equally true that Geno's players feel more culturally comfortable with him than they would with Dawn. Are Dawn's type of players going to be consistently more successful than Geno's type of players? Setting Boston aside as a specific, "sui generis" case, I don't think that is clear at all. I think the consistent success of Stanford, UConn, and Notre Dame, and the lesser but still consistent success other programs (Oregon? Indiana? Iowa? Princeton?) makes that apparent.
 
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UCONN's current team, which is not the same team as 5 years ago, is only compared to UCONN history.
They absolutely get NO CREDIT for finishing 2. Our "drought" of winning championships continue, they report. Drought compared to whom? Louisville who has never won one. Tenn. who hasn't been to a Final 4 since 2008, or all the schools who never even get to a sweet sixteen.
Geno has pointed out that this current group, this was their first championship game, not their 12th.
I don't agree that finishing second is a bad year, especially with all that we have gone through. ESPN can "stick it" as far as I am concerned.
I agree! With half or more of the team sick and/or injured up to and including the final game Holding SC to only 59 point was nothing shot of remarkable. Remarkable for the depleted team and more so for Geno. He has won the NC every time except this one for nearly 40 years. No coach, I would guess, in any sport has this record at the National Championships.
There are some on TV that think CW and ONO failed as Seniors. They excelled beyond the Peter Principle. They in my belief excelled beyond their native Talent and physical characteristics.
 
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UConn IS good for women’s basketball now that they are AN annual powerhouse rather than THE only powerhouse.

Without the annual UConn game, would Dawn have been able to build the excitement around her program to the point that AJa stayed home? To the point that Boston came to the Deep South?
Dawn was one Geno put time and effort into helping her become the coach she is. I know that Geno got a lift up to Big time Women's basketball and being viewed by more than Connecticut. Geno gives FORWARD--passes on the gifts he was given. That is how it should be. Yes, Dawn got exposure by Geno's acceptance of playing the Gamecocks. Thanks for understand that fact.
 
Very likely a moot point, ballerfan but, as you likely know, the greatest players in many sports have failed miserably as coaches. DT surely has a deep understanding of the game on-court, but I'm not so sure her temperament would lend itself to development of young players and patience with them when they mess up... no question the media would eat it all up if she were to try.
As you said, it’s probably a moot point. It is unlikely that DT or Sue would replace Geno.

I’m going to say something that some people will strongly disagree with. Apologies in advance. Just my opinion. Or my fear. I want to be wrong. But I’m concerned that UConn as a basketball powerhouse might not exist after Geno’s retirement. I’m concerned that Geno is UConn women’s basketball.

I think without Geno UConn can still have a good team and attract good athletes, especially because of its history, but not like before. UConn is not just any great team. It is the most successful team, men’s or women’s, in the history of college sports. And the reason for that is Geno’s talent and wisdom, as well as the strong gravitational pull of his larger than life personality.

I know there are many examples of famous players becoming bad coaches. But again, just in my humble opinion, I think if UConn wants to maintain the magic that Geno created, it’s going to have to take a risk and do something big enough and exciting enough that recruits will still view UConn in awe.
 
There’s a lot more to this than talent dispersal. Much of if has to do with the progression of physicality in the game. The desire to make it more like the men’s game has allowed the slow acceptance of much more contact in WCBB. Get yourself a recording of any game from 1994-95. There’s a reason why that basketball was so “pretty”. While it could get scrappy, then didn’t let them bump cutters, hold players and tackle people like they do today. The beauty of Geno and Tara’s flowing offense has been diluted by heavy contact. Physicality is the great equalizer. I don’t find it as enjoyable.
Sounds crazy. What is apparent is the gap UCONN had has gone away. That is fact If u look at the last 6 years. However UCONN will compete and win ships but not at the pace and ease like previously
 
SC seems to get the players they want in recruiting recently. Maybe part of it is the deep south seems to have an abundance of extremely strong, fast and athletic players and culturally I would say most that really fit that profile are people of color who are probably a lot more like Dawn Staley than Geno or CD. Look around the NBA. 17% of nba players are white. Which demographic would you want to appeal to if you were trying to win a basketball championship? We have a lot of advantages but culture is a huge factor in itself. Prospect marketing to our target demographic, we are at a disadvantage.
 
Generally, I completely disagree with your point of view, but I think you may be correct in some of what you say in the above paragraph. As I said in another post, I think Dawn is the first coach since Pat Summitt was in her prime to present a really attractive alternative to Geno among a large portion of top-level recruits. And I think you are generally correct about the kind of players that are attracted to her. She can and probably will build excellent, NC-contending teams from the type of players who are attracted to that culture.

It's worth noting that from about 2005 to 2010, C. Vivian Stringer tried to build her Rutgers teams from the same type of players who are now attracted to Dawn, and she was quite successful. She never won an NC, but then she never had a player like Aliyah Boston.

However, I think it's also quite possible to build an NC-contending team from recruits who are culturally from a different place than that. Aside from UConn's string of Final Fours, what about the consistent success of Stanford (who won an NC last year) and the nearly-similar consistent success of Notre Dame or Oregon? Those schools don't attract the kind of players that you say are drawn to Dawn's teams. Can you imagine Paige, Azzi, Haley Jones, Cameron Brink, Ashlynn Shade, Sonia Citron, Caitlyn Clark, Sabrina Ionescu, or the Hull sisters being drawn to Dawn's culture? I can't. Can you imagine Dawn attracting European players like Dorka, Nika, or Justine Jocyte? Neither can I. What about players like KLS and Napheesa, both of whom were undefeated against South Carolina in their college careers?

I think that you and many others on this board are overgeneralizing from one year's experience, and are failing to appreciate the "sui generis" nature of Aliyah Boston as a player. Take Boston off SC's roster and what do you think the outcome of Sunday night's game would have been (despite all their other very capable players)? I think it would have been a very competitive game that would be decided by single digits, even with UConn's roster limited as it was. If UConn had the fully healthy services of Dorka / Azzi / Evina, UConn would have been favored and would probably have won if SC did not have Boston.

So SC may be "dominant" until Boston moves on (which may not be until 2024 if she uses her COVID year). After that, all bets are off.

Much less importantly, I think you are quite wrong about UConn being a "pressure cooker". I think Geno's sense of humor prevents that, and you see that players like Paige and Nika feel quite comfortable joking around with Geno. You are right that Dawn's players "feel more culturally comfortable" with her than they would with Geno, but it is equally true that Geno's players feel more culturally comfortable with him than they would with Dawn. Are Dawn's type of players going to be consistently more successful than Geno's type of players? Setting Boston aside as a specific, "sui generis" case, I don't think that is clear at all. I think the consistent success of Stanford, UConn, and Notre Dame, and the lesser but still consistent success other programs (Oregon? Indiana? Iowa? Princeton?) makes that apparent.
What the heck. Please define what u consider "Dawn" type players. This whole post screams of low key race bias. Geno would take any player off SC roster and I think Dawn would too. I'm really trying to get where u going with this because personally it feels offensive. Just saying
 
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